Rd13 v Parra

[betcats]

Cam Smith would have been a Titan if he wasn't slipped a brown paper bag. Sliding doors moment for the two organisations if ever there was one. Instead Bellamy rode the woe is me narrative with him and turned him into a one club player. But it wouldnt have happened if they didn't systematically cheat. Doesn't invalidate his entire body of work, just half of it.

Also, Stefano would be a top 3 prop if a coach could get the best out of him. Thats on Bellamy as much of any of our issues this year are on Ivan.

Oh come on re stefano. You can’t just say he should be top 3 when he has never been close to it.

Soc makes a great point, they aren’t the donkeys or the rooster who just buy stars every few years.. They make players stars, like we have been doing. Jarome Hughes played a game for the titans in 2013, next game for cows in 2016 before Bellamy got him, they didn’t have to cheat to sign him.

Yeah we did it to crazy level last four or five years, but that doesn’t mean what Bellamy has done for the last 20 years isn’t remarkable and unheard of.

 

[Pomoz]

After losing Turuva, May, Luaii and JFH I’m not sure we can argue our roster is that brilliant. Alomoti, Garner, Sorensen, Papalii and Jenkins are all cast offs unwanted by their teams. Do we think Henry, Smith and Kenny have clubs queuing up to sign them? Seriously, we underestimate the work that has been done by the club to manage the roster and shape it into something resembling a competitive team.

We have slowly been whittled away by the salary cap. It has been relentless. Not just big name rep players but the supporting players who give the team depth. Leniu, Sullivan, Capewell, Iongi, Hopgood, Hoskins, Cogger it has just been drip, drip, drip.

How many of our backline, besides To’o get in the Roosters, Broncos, Canberra, Melbourne or Canterbury back lines? Newcastle, the Titans?

What about our forwards? Yeo and Martin for sure and maybe Leota, but only at certain clubs.

Of course everybody wants Cleary, but Edwards? Even now the press want Edward’s replaced by Tedesco or Papenhausen.

Let’s talk about the coaches who have left us. Trent Barrett, Andrew Webster, Cameron Ciraldo. That must have had an impact on our coaching. Yet here we are, four in a row.

In my view the coaching to get us to where we are has been amazing. This year doesn’t detract from that, especially when this year has seen another four first graders leave to be replaced by Papalii and a second year rookie, Talagi.

On the weekend we started with Jenkins McLean and Talagi all rookies with one season under their belts. On the bench, Sommerton and Patea don’t even have that!

The strength of our team lies in that word, TEAM. Our component parts are not all that and certainly not after five years of salary cap induced losses. Our success has made us blind to just how average a large part of our roster is. The results don’t lie.

 

[age.s]

Every coach is dealing with the rule changes.

Still waiting for you to tell me when Bellamy had a good roster coming last deep into season.

Do you think if Bellamy was coaching us now we’d be in 14th? Because I really don’t think we would.

I'll get you that as soon as you show me the point at which Bellamy won 4 straight premierships. Or even 4 total.

The last question isn't really answerable, but i will say that I think Ivan's stability first, systematic approach to coaching is the primary reason we've been so consistent over this period, particularly in big games. I dont think Bellamy wins 4 premierships this decade if we want to talk about role swaps.

 

[betcats]

I'll get you that as soon as you show me the point at which Bellamy won 4 straight premierships. Or even 4 total.

The last question isn't really answerable, but i will say that I think Ivan's stability first, systematic approach to coaching is the primary reason we've been so consistent over this period, particularly in big games. I dont think Bellamy wins 4 premierships this decade if we want to talk about role swaps.

The idea of a Bellamy coached team being last after round 12 is so silly tgat we all know it’s never happened.

 

[age.s]

Oh come on re stefano. You can’t just say he should be top 3 when he has never been close to it.

Soc makes a great point, they aren’t the donkeys or the rooster who just buy stars every few years.. They make players stars, like we have been doing. Jarome Hughes played a game for the titans in 2013, next game for cows in 2016 before Bellamy got him, they didn’t have to cheat to sign him.

Yeah we did it to crazy level last four or five years, but that doesn’t mean what Bellamy has done for the last 20 years isn’t remarkable and unheard of.

Stefano absolutely has looked like a top 3 prop at times in his career. He just has perhaps the widest distance between his ceiling and floor you'll ever see, with the narrative being that was because of his environment/coaching. He got a bumper contract at the Storm on the premise that he would fulfil that potential. He hasn't (albeit in half a season) and to some degree that has to be on Bellamy. Fairs fair.

I actually mostly agree with the rest of your post. I think you can certainly make the argument for Bellamy goat. I'm just not giving him the last 20 years, I'm giving him the last 10, and imo his work in that time is fitting of being Ivans bridesmaid.

It's the belittling of Ivans achievements that gets me. Some of it's emotion because we hate watching us play poorly, but there's a genuine undercurrent of an idea that it was a fluke which just strikes me as an insane way to belittle the incredible feat our club has pulled off.

 

[betcats]

I’m not belittling his achievements that’s the thing, the last four years are the greatest four years any coach has had ever.

But am I not allowed to criticise what’s going on this year? By his own very high standards set the last four or five years is he not having a bad year? We have been described as a rabble a couple of times and they have been right in those times. We are having a bad year, coaches get credit for the good results but don’t get blamed for the bad ones now? Since when?

 

[age.s]

The idea of a Bellamy coached team being last after round 12 is so silly tgat we all know it’s never happened.

You're very firmly digging your stake into the ground for what criteria we judge a goat coach by there. Where does a 14-2 record in finals matches in the course of 5 years rank though? Or was that all our players again?

 

[age.s]

Also just to be clear I wouldn’t swap our 5 years for the storms 20. Not even close

but let’s be real here, with the context of how bad we are this year, Ivans last 4 years look a lot more like him just being blessed by a very special group of players than Bellamy’s last 25 years do.

Cmon mate. If that's not belittling his achievements then I dont know what is.

 

[betcats]

You're very firmly digging your stake into the ground for what criteria we judge a goat coach by there. Where does a 14-2 record in finals matches in the course of 5 years rank though? Or was that all our players again?

I don’t even remember how we started arguing about Bellamy but I haven’t said anything untrue about his record have I? The only real dispute is how much weight to give the salary cap cheating when looking at his record.

 

[betcats]

Cmon mate. If that's not belittling his achievements then I dont know what is.

No it’s not, not in the context of that conversation. You are the one who brought Bellamy benefitting from a good rooster mate.

 

[betcats]

Tbh I don’t even care about what achievements are better or what anyone thinks about that, what I actually care about is this season now and how we are performing. I brought up Bellamy to criticise his performance right now, not his overall achievements so stop getting your knickers over this perceived disrespect of his legacy.

 

[age.s]

No it’s not, not in the context of that conversation. You are the one who brought Bellamy benefitting from a good rooster mate.

Both coaches have benefited from having incredible rosters. Our was just assembled legally, and has been duly disassembled. I don't think Bellamy deserves (much) credit for his achievements with that first roster because it should never have existed, and probably wouldnt have stuck together for as long as it did if they weren't slapped down in 2010. That's probably where we disagree, but I'm not giving that merkin credit for f**king the integrity of the league for the better part of a decade. f**k him (of course he knew...) and the purple scum.

Since then hes done a good job reinventing his squad to be consistently competetive over the course of a decade, including winning a premiership. That puts him well above most coaches, but a long long way behind Ivan during the same period. Even if our season doesn't improve (which it still might) that fact wouldnt change for me. 4 in a row is simply an unmatchable achievement.

The other thing is, we havent seen how this era ends yet. Nath and Yeo should have several good years left. If Ivan gets things humming again and adds a couple more rings with this core the conversation swings wildly in his direction. Much more of Bellamy's career has been written than Ivans, which I suppose you could see as a positive or negative for either side of the argument.

 

[age.s]

Tbh I don’t even care about what achievements are better or what anyone thinks about that, what I actually care about is this season now and how we are performing. I brought up Bellamy to criticise his performance right now, not his overall achievements so stop getting your knickers over this perceived disrespect of his legacy.

That's fair enough tbh. I've mostly hated watching us this year too. All I'd say to that is that while we havent been good enough, the margins have been pretty fine and we definitely haven't been the worst team in the comp, so the last place thing isn't really indicative. I'd still have us at better odds of winning this comp than anyone outside of Canberra, Canterbury or maybe the Storm and I still like our best against any of theirs in a big game, just whether or not we have the juice in the tank.

 

[age.s]

Tbh I don’t even care about what achievements are better or what anyone thinks about that, what I actually care about is this season now and how we are performing. I brought up Bellamy to criticise his performance right now, not his overall achievements so stop getting your knickers over this perceived disrespect of his legacy.

Nah not knickers twisting. Id have probably liked half your posts if LU would allow me the privilege. Its interesting shit to talk about.

 

[betcats]

Both coaches have benefited from having incredible rosters. Our was just assembled legally, and has been duly disassembled. I don't think Bellamy deserves (much) credit for his achievements with that first roster because it should never have existed, and probably wouldnt have stuck together for as long as it did if they weren't slapped down in 2010. That's probably where we disagree, but I'm not giving that merkin credit for f**king the integrity of the league for the better part of a decade. f**k him (of course he knew...) and the purple scum.

Since then hes done a good job reinventing his squad to be consistently competetive over the course of a decade, including winning a premiership. That puts him well above most coaches, but a long long way behind Ivan during the same period. Even if our season doesn't improve (which it still might) that fact wouldnt change for me. 4 in a row is simply an unmatchable achievement.

The other thing is, we havent seen how this era ends yet. Nath and Yeo should have several good years left. If Ivan gets things humming again and adds a couple more rings with this core the conversation swings wildly in his direction. Much more of Bellamy's career has been written than Ivans, which I suppose you could see as a positive or negative for either side of the argument.

My opinion is that the roster argument cuts both ways for every coach and is better left out of the conversation entirely. Look at their records, and player development and all that, but trying to credit or discredit them for their rosters is a slippery slope.

If Ivan wins a couple more rings there’s no doubt he will be above Bellamy.

But like I said this argument wasn’t the argument I wanted, I’m not disrespecting Ivan’s achievements I’m disrespecting his current performance

 

[age.s]

My opinion is that the roster argument cuts both ways for every coach and is better left out of the conversation entirely. Look at their records, and player development and all that, but trying to credit or discredit them for their rosters is a slippery slope.

I agree with this, but it's mostly Ivans achievements that get belittled as just being kissed on the dick by an incredible roster, which i think is particularly unfair given how his roster was assembled and continuously dismantled. In truth my points about Bellamy are probably a reaction to that somewhat.

 

[betcats]

I agree with this, but it's mostly Ivans achievements that get belittled as just being kissed on the dick by an incredible roster, which i think is particularly unfair given how his roster was assembled and continuously dismantled. In truth my points about Bellamy are probably a reaction to that somewhat.

Fair enough, I don’t actually think that myself for the record, I certainly implied it but that was using it to try and make a point about the roster thing in general. Ivan’s fingerprints are all over this roster imo. He had clean out, got the team he wanted and had ridiculous success and turned a bunch of teenagers into superstars. He has possibly turned Yeo into immortal also, at least I think he is. I mean he’s done everything.

 

[age.s]

I feel like Yeo will be one of those guys who gets continuously overlooked for flashier options. Hope im wrong though.

 

[betcats]

I think he will get them after he’s done. Right now the Clearys and Nath being a half back is just a better story, it sells more. This team is going to be talked about like that Parra team, I think that’s when Yeo will really get his flowers. Nath will get them no doubt but if Yeo isn’t remembered as the best player of this dynasty, he will be definitely remembered as the 2nd best.

 

[Oldpanther86]

I think he will get them after he’s done. Right now the Clearys and Nath being a half back is just a better story, it sells more. This team is going to be talked about like that Parra team, I think that’s when Yeo will really get his flowers. Nath will get them no doubt but if Yeo isn’t remembered as the best player of this dynasty, he will be definitely remembered as the 2nd best.

It'd be a crying shame if he didn't get is recognition. Yeo is arguably much the GOAT forward not even meming or wearing Panthers goggles on that call.