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Rd15: Parra v Bulldogs GAME DAY thread @ BankWest Stadium 20/6/21

Poupou Escobar

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67,103
the issues that those ‘some’ have, is that there is a genuine lack of creativity amongst the team, and the tries off kicks are masking up those issues. not Sure the tries off kicks are the issue alone.
We're third in the NRL for tries (including from kicks) but also third for linebreaks. So while we're not as dangerous as the Storm we did score enough to beat them already. As for Penrith, every team struggles to score against them. Why would we be any different? They're the best defensive team in the NRL.
 

Joshuatheeel

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
18,128
Matto was solid as he generally is, but looking at stats only made 47m for 6 runs. That’s pretty poor for near 60m on the field. 1 run for every 10mins on the field.

it’s hard for a edge player to go looking for the ball at times, especially if we aren’t rucking it out. Generally it’s the halves that decide which edge gets the ball.

We had pretty decent field position for a fair chunk of the game. And we generally went to papa’s edge (probably part of the game plan along with the dogs having trouble defending papa).

This is supported by Opacic having 6 runs / Matterson 6 runs, yet on the other edge Blake had 13 / papa 19.
 

IFR33K

Coach
Messages
12,614
We're third in the NRL for tries (including from kicks) but also third for linebreaks. So while we're not as dangerous as the Storm we did score enough to beat them already. As for Penrith, every team struggles to score against them. Why would we be any different? They're the best defensive team in the NRL.


if I’m not mistake, when you Barge over and score a try, your team also gets awarded a line break. So it’s no coincidence we‘re ranking high in line breaks. The line breaks that many fans look at, are the big 50-60 metre runs from your own half. They’re the ones we seem to be lacking in. All you have to do is look at the Shaun lane try, and ask yourself how often do our forwards make those types of runs or score those type of tries. Our stats suggest we’re in the top 4, but imo, in reality we‘ll struggle against 4 teams without changes, when it matters.
 

84 Baby

Referee
Messages
21,250
If we sacked B.A, what realistic options are available? Right now, Shane Flannagan is itching to coach again. If we wait too long, he'll be taken by someone else and we'll be forced to take a gamble on a rookie coach.
Oh no! Quick MON sign up Flanagan now!
tenor.gif
 

84 Baby

Referee
Messages
21,250
if I’m not mistake, when you Barge over and score a try, your team also gets awarded a line break. So it’s no coincidence we‘re ranking high in line breaks. The line breaks that many fans look at, are the big 50-60 metre runs from your own half. They’re the ones we seem to be lacking in. All you have to do is look at the Shaun lane try, and ask yourself how often do our forwards make those types of runs or score those type of tries. Our stats suggest we’re in the top 4, but imo, in reality we‘ll struggle against 4 teams without changes, when it matters.
Part of the problem there though is we faced Scum way back when and since then we’ve really only faced a very brave, so brave Rorters, a resurgent Moanly and Souffs who I think are our worst match up at the moment. Now we step into a run of heaps of top 8 teams plus some battling for finals spot and some legit contenders.

Have no doubt, we are going to lose some games in this period, and probably look woeful doing so. But it’s also where we can be challenged and look to improve to the standard Scum and Smugfers are setting.
 

Gazzamatta

First Grade
Messages
8,509
If we move forward with different assistant coaches, which I believe we should if only to get some new ideas, I reckon it shouldn't be anyone with past Melbourne links. There's way too many Bellamy wannabes around. Only Bellyache can do what he does.
We're third in the NRL for tries (including from kicks) but also third for linebreaks. So while we're not as dangerous as the Storm we did score enough to beat them already. As for Penrith, every team struggles to score against them. Why would we be any different? They're the best defensive team in the NRL.
Talk about Premership Window I reckon The Penny's have closed ours shut. Could not have been more impressed with them last game.
 

Poupou Escobar

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67,103
I never suggested we sack the coach. I have been calling for new assistants for some time though. Head coaches don't need to be the best strategists. He is a hell of a man manager, which is great and one of the 2 most important traits of a head coach, the other being recruiter, which again he is top notch at. But as for teaching the players the finer details of the game he needs help, which is fine as long as he recognises that and seeks out the best to do the job he can't do. That means getting even guys that have the potential to replace him if they are better then what we have at present.

I think he won't do this due to loyalty of the current assistants and or fear for his own jobs. That is why I think the decision needs to be made for him by MON. We and he will be better for it. We need a change of our attacking style. We need the players to know how to take easier advantage of all that ball and power play we can get during games. They are so predictable and boring out there it isn't funny. Hell we need this change if not just to stop Brown taking the 4th tackle in each set. I mean how ridiculous and if you are the opposition, how the hell wouldn't you know what's coming?
Knowing what the opposition will do and stopping it aren't the same thing. Every team knows what we're going to do in attack yet only the Storm have scored more tries than us.
 

hindy111

Immortal
Messages
40,490
Comparing him to Cordner is ridiculous. He has never been as damaging as Cordner when Cordner was fit. Cordner knew how to run lines and then set up the next play like nobodies business.

I like Matterson, he is a good defender and does the occasional good thing in attack, but he is average otherwise. Sure he has the skill and size to trouble the opposition, but rarely ever uses it. Now is this a consequence of his concussions, who knows, but when was the last time we ever saw him run onto the ball at speed and with venom over the top of the opposition or through a whole running a great line?

I can't recall it. But in my book that is what a quality backrower should be doing each week, not just defend real well. There are two sides to the game mate and you always seem to miss the spectacular stuff. You're one of these merkins that only sees the boring grinding stuff that we can all see, but only dumb dumbs think that no one else can and keeps trying to point them out so people don't think you are one of those dumb dumbs.

He is very limited in attack from a major presence point of view and all he does are hit up type of runs that aren't all that threatening. He needs to show his skills and learn how to set himself up for that great line run that quality backrowers are renowned for. He at the moment is not known for that type of game at all. He is playing a solid but very containable type of game at the moment. If he wants to improve he needs to learn how to run on to the ball properly at speed and and the right line for the occasion. At the moment he is keeping a lot of his gun powder dry and barely firing off a shot. I think he has it in him, but will he ever let it out?


I
Comparing him to Cordner is ridiculous. He has never been as damaging as Cordner when Cordner was fit. Cordner knew how to run lines and then set up the next play like nobodies business.

I like Matterson, he is a good defender and does the occasional good thing in attack, but he is average otherwise. Sure he has the skill and size to trouble the opposition, but rarely ever uses it. Now is this a consequence of his concussions, who knows, but when was the last time we ever saw him run onto the ball at speed and with venom over the top of the opposition or through a whole running a great line?

I can't recall it. But in my book that is what a quality backrower should be doing each week, not just defend real well. There are two sides to the game mate and you always seem to miss the spectacular stuff. You're one of these merkins that only sees the boring grinding stuff that we can all see, but only dumb dumbs think that no one else can and keeps trying to point them out so people don't think you are one of those dumb dumbs.

He is very limited in attack from a major presence point of view and all he does are hit up type of runs that aren't all that threatening. He needs to show his skills and learn how to set himself up for that great line run that quality backrowers are renowned for. He at the moment is not known for that type of game at all. He is playing a solid but very containable type of game at the moment. If he wants to improve he needs to learn how to run on to the ball properly at speed and and the right line for the occasion. At the moment he is keeping a lot of his gun powder dry and barely firing off a shot. I think he has it in him, but will he ever let it out?


I agree. Cordner ran hard and busted the line dragging defenders with him. Matterson never hits the line with a full steam ahead approach. Kinda of toddles to the defense and gets good PCMs...He is very good however at moving the ball and attacking a bomb. Maybe the best in NRL at this so credit for that.
I think we do not use him well also. He would be better with early ball just like Waqa on a spread play rather then banging it up like Lane or Marata style.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
67,103
Comparing him to Cordner is ridiculous. He has never been as damaging as Cordner when Cordner was fit. Cordner knew how to run lines and then set up the next play like nobodies business.

I like Matterson, he is a good defender and does the occasional good thing in attack, but he is average otherwise. Sure he has the skill and size to trouble the opposition, but rarely ever uses it. Now is this a consequence of his concussions, who knows, but when was the last time we ever saw him run onto the ball at speed and with venom over the top of the opposition or through a whole running a great line?

I can't recall it. But in my book that is what a quality backrower should be doing each week, not just defend real well. There are two sides to the game mate and you always seem to miss the spectacular stuff. You're one of these merkins that only sees the boring grinding stuff that we can all see, but only dumb dumbs think that no one else can and keeps trying to point them out so people don't think you are one of those dumb dumbs.

He is very limited in attack from a major presence point of view and all he does are hit up type of runs that aren't all that threatening. He needs to show his skills and learn how to set himself up for that great line run that quality backrowers are renowned for. He at the moment is not known for that type of game at all. He is playing a solid but very containable type of game at the moment. If he wants to improve he needs to learn how to run on to the ball properly at speed and and the right line for the occasion. At the moment he is keeping a lot of his gun powder dry and barely firing off a shot. I think he has it in him, but will he ever let it out?
He's playing his role and doing it very well. Not as well as last year but still showing consistent quality. He is the least of our worries.
 

Poupou Escobar

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Messages
67,103
if I’m not mistake, when you Barge over and score a try, your team also gets awarded a line break. So it’s no coincidence we‘re ranking high in line breaks. The line breaks that many fans look at, are the big 50-60 metre runs from your own half. They’re the ones we seem to be lacking in. All you have to do is look at the Shaun lane try, and ask yourself how often do our forwards make those types of runs or score those type of tries. Our stats suggest we’re in the top 4, but imo, in reality we‘ll struggle against 4 teams without changes, when it matters.
Nobody's suggesting we're the best team in the comp. However you seem to be suggesting the reason is coaching, despite zero evidence. Our lack of Origin representation points more toward lack of playing talent being the problem, however fans always overrate their players while blaming the coach for everything. It's the same with fans at every club, year after year.
 

84 Baby

Referee
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21,250
I think we could be better at it, particularly around Drown, but rarely will you see Paulo go to the line by himself. And Nrown if he isn’t kamikazing back against the ruck (I’m f**ken loving that at the moment, one of the sexiest runs in the game) often goes to line with at least one other runner. It’s what allows our forwards to utilise their power.
 

Eelementary

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53,193
Matto was solid as he generally is, but looking at stats only made 47m for 6 runs. That’s pretty poor for near 60m on the field. 1 run for every 10mins on the field.
Sure - but we went left all game, because Papali'i was on fire.
 

lucablight

Bench
Messages
4,147
Nobody's suggesting we're the best team in the comp. However you seem to be suggesting the reason is coaching, despite zero evidence. Our lack of Origin representation points more toward lack of playing talent being the problem, however fans always overrate their players while blaming the coach for everything. It's the same with fans at every club, year after year.
Origin representation is a useless metric on its own. Are the Cowboys, Dragons and Titans more talented than us because they have substantially more origin players?
 

lucablight

Bench
Messages
4,147
Who said it should be viewed on its own? It's just another piece of objective evidence.
Nah they must be shit because of poor coaching.
What are the other objective pieces of evidence you pointed out? Saying team A is better than team B because team A has more origin players is overly simplistic. Andrew Mccollough has been picked for origin yet no one would consider him an elite standard player. Isaiah Papali’i wont be picked for origin yet he’s playing at an elite level. We have plenty of players who wouldn’t look out of place in an origin jersey but they have players in teams who are performing better than ours right now eg Nathan Brown, RCG, Gutherson, Moses. I would say the reason we are doing so well is because we have a more talented team than most of the competition.
 

Poupou Escobar

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What are the other objective pieces of evidence you pointed out?
I have previously pointed to total number of games experience, as well as finals and Origin experience.
Saying team A is better than team B because team A has more origin players is overly simplistic. Andrew Mccollough has been picked for origin yet no one would consider him an elite standard player.
I think he's an elite level defender (most tackles in the NRL as well 98% tackle effectiveness), with elite levels of NRL experience (283 games) and a lot more big game experience than most (18 finals plus Origin matches). He wasn't picked for nothing.
Isaiah Papali’i wont be picked for origin yet he’s playing at an elite level.
Elite non-Origin players are outliers. There are other ways to measure their effectiveness though. At a glance we can see that Papali'i is eigth in the NRL for fantasy points. Again, nobody said Origin selection is the sole measure. But it's certainly a decent heuristic. And one thing about Origin is that it not only indicates a player's quality, but the experience actually improves a player. Come finals time Junior Paulo will have three extra games of experience at the 'big game' level. That will likely be it for our club. Meanwhile the Panthers and Storm will have added about a dozen such games to their experience pool. Even the Dragons and Knights will have added more than us.
We have plenty of players who wouldn’t look out of place in an origin jersey but they have players in teams who are performing better than ours right now eg Nathan Brown, RCG, Gutherson, Moses. I would say the reason we are doing so well is because we have a more talented team than most of the competition.
We do have a more talented team than most but I think it's wrong to expect that we should be performing as well as the Panthers or Storm. Because they have better squads than ours.
 
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