Regional Cities Plan

[joshreading]

I think, as is seen in discussions regarding areas like Adelaide, CQ, PNG, Christ Church, even the Central Coast that the ARLC needs to create a clear vision and strategy for engaging 'secondary' and 'regional' cities in the NRL.

Whether some people like it or not these are important areas yet due to smaller population, and/or lack of corporate strength will usually struggle by themselves to sustain a full time NRL team.

The NRL needs to make some level of commitment to engage these areas in DIRECT representation or presence of some sort.

Thus for instance, Adelaide lacks the RL support level to sustain a full time team BUT does have a level of RL support, access to government and corporate support that would elevate an NRL team to the next level. If given 4/5 games per year (including a trial) it could open up a whole different supporter/sponsor group.

The same could be said of CQ/PNG etc.

I know that this question has particularly been engaged in regards to Sharks and Adelaide (with the development or not) increasing their fan base and breaking out of the Shire whilst maintaining presence should be obvious.

My question is HOW, WHO (TEAM) and WHY?

Supposing some level of co-operation between NRL and Clubs.

Suppose for a moment 3 - 4 NRL premiership games plus, direct links for juniors, local RL etc.

For instance

PNG - 4 games - Panthers (with slight rebrand to emphasise Panthers) move 2/3 home games. (against opposition that draw badly in Penrith). They would obviously also develop a PNG 'home jersey" with black/Yellow/Red

PNG buys another two games off other clubs. Panthers also take another trial to PNG. This would be on the stipulation of PNG investment in the Club and a formal relationship in regards to recruitment and promotion of Panthers in all PNGRL as the PNG team.

I think if they put out the challenge to sign up twenty five thousand PNG members as "PNG Panthers" it would be acheived.

A move like this would 'secure' PNG as a RL nation, increase Penrith's broad supporter base, increase financial security and create a flow of potential juniors that would take the Panthers to the next level in playing strength.



Thoughts?

Adelaide -
Tasmania - (move a Storm premiership game and trial?)
CQ - 4 games (supposing a stadium is built)
Christ Church - 4 games
Wellington - 4 games
Cairns - (maybe better representation by NQ)

 

[Quidgybo]

National second tier.

A competition for teams no longer able to compete at the top level (eg. Newtown, Brisbane Easts, Brisbane Norths), teams aspiring to enter the NRL in the short to medium term (eg. Reds, Bears, Wellington, Port Moresby, Adelaide), and strategic smaller markets not yet big enough to support an NRL franchise (eg. Mackay, Toowoomba, Albury-Wodonga).

Leigh.

 

[Goddo]

Way too expensive to run Leigh. Best sticking to NSW/Qld/NZ cup structure, then visiting these smaller markets with low drawing NRL matches.

I mean, if every NRL team took a game outside Sydney it would be almost a teams worth of games less in congested Sydney and a fraction of a teams games in each smaller locality.

This would reflect both the needs of the game to reduce competition in Sydney and achieve market presence which reflects the games strengh in new or small markets.

This is exactly what the AFL does with its over saturation of Melbourne teams, particularily in Tasmania. Eventually you put a carrot out there to move a whole club if the area eventually warrants it.

Expansion is for direct action on improving the spread of clubs - we need x and y, done. Relocation and rationalisation are best achieved as evolutionary processes.

 

[Quidgybo]

Way too expensive to run Leigh. Best sticking to NSW/Qld/NZ cup structure, then visiting these smaller markets with low drawing NRL matches.

Running two or three semi pro competitions is cheaper than running one? The game could run a national second tier at 150% the cost of any one of those and would still come out ahead. Remember the game already manages to fund flying a junior team from Perth to Sydney, a reserves team from Auckland to Sydney, and country teams from Mackay and Cairns to Brisbane every second week. And that's with comps that can't appeal to sponsors or television on a national scale.

Leigh.

 

[Perth Red]

Each team to take 1 trial and 2 season games (either home games or if they can convince the other team away games)

WA Reds - Darwin
Mebourne - Hobart
Cowboys - Cairns
Titans - PNG
Manly - CQ (if suitable venue built)
Sharks - Adelaide
Warriors - Wellington
Panthers - Christchurch

Would need to be a serious long term committment by clubs with link ups at the state comp level of administration, jnr development programmes and Govt support. NRL to chip in a decent amount of development money for each area and subsidy for teams costs.

 

[Perth Red]

Running two or three semi pro competitions is cheaper than running one? The game could run a national second tier at 150% the cost of any one of those and would still come out ahead. Remember the game already manages to fund flying a junior team from Perth to Sydney, a reserves team from Auckland to Sydney, and country teams from Mackay and Cairns to Brisbane every second week. And that's with comps that can't appeal to sponsors or television on a national scale.

Leigh.

You'd need a salary cap of aroun $2mill then travel costs and admin costs. Would need to be funded tot he tune of around $4mill a club. Would need at least a 20 team comp if it is going to be a feeder club system for NRL plus expansion/new areas. That's a lot of money to find. RU failed in its attempt to set up a 2nd tier national prof comp and the AFL club continually vote against one.

 

[Quidgybo]

With an average wage of $30k for a 20 man squad supplemented by surplus NRL squad players at zero cost, that's a salary cap of $600k, not $2m. Double that for travel (ie. $2k per player for 15 away games per year) for squad and travel costs of around $1.2m per year. Offset that against a $200k - $300k affliate payment from each NRL club for providing places for reserve players (the current amount NRL clubs spend on NSW and Qld Cup sides). So call it an even $1m grant per team from the ARLC before sponsorships etc. Obviously that's vastly simplified (insurance, coaching, marketing etc) but the economics of this don't have to be unrealistic.

Leigh.

 

[rednblack]

With an average wage of $30k for a 20 man squad supplemented by surplus NRL squad players at zero cost, that's a salary cap of $600k, not $2m. Double that for travel (ie. $2k per player for 15 away games per year) for squad and travel costs of around $1.2m per year. Offset that against a $200k - $300k affliate payment from each NRL club for providing places for reserve players (the current amount NRL clubs spend on NSW and Qld Cup sides). So call it an even $1m grant per team from the ARLC before sponsorships etc. Obviously that's vastly simplified (insurance, coaching, marketing etc) but the economics of this don't have to be unrealistic.

Leigh.

Err, the minimum wage in this country is in the order of around $31,000 iirc. Granted you may not need $2m for the playing roster, but if you want a second tier to be professional you won't be far off it.

As for travel, $2k per head sounds small to me. Average flight on a busy Sydney to Brisbane route is around $120-150 each way. Yes there are special fares occasionally, but they don't travel on the bare bones tickets - I'd have to believe that they'd buy flights with some flexibility included. Even with discounts for large groups etc, I can't see travel costs being much under $5k per head, (plus accommodation, meals etc).

Then, as you said, there's all the extra costs such as insurance, coaching, admin etc.

True, it doesn't have to be unrealistic, but you've underestimated deluxe.

 

[CQ Italia]

No regional plan needed for CQ, the bid already have a comprehensive business plan with every aspect of grassroots rl catered for. As well as the statement that the club will be one of the most viable sporting club's in Australia.

20,000 seat stadium is needed, they are only going to build that with an accepted NRL license.

 

[joshreading]

No regional plan needed for CQ, the bid already have a comprehensive business plan with every aspect of grassroots rl catered for. As well as the statement that the club will be one of the most viable sporting club's in Australia.

Here is the problem, the population is insufficient. There is no doubt that the team is doing a great job piecing together a RL focussed operation from grassroots to corporate but the claim of 600 thousand is laughable. The real drive population is far less. Also the chances of Bundaberg kids (which are counted in CQ Bid figures but far too south I think) following say CQ over Broncos is next to nothing.

Also, I am of the opinion that a stadium of twenty thousand or starting clubs that have little hope of growing well above twenty thousand in average or even peak attendance will be shooting ourselves in the foot. We should be preparing to position clubs for MINIMUM crowds of twenty thousand not maximum. It is time to treat the NRL as the elite competition it can be.

 

[CQ Italia]

Much prefer a club that will be one of the best operations in the country and with financial viability assured than a club within a higher city population, but has less grassroots support, less backing and is relying on potential support.

Bundaberg juniors are already strongly apart of the bid. They want a CQ team. It's a regional area very much like Rocky, Mackay and Gladstone.

The bid has always said 450,000 within 3.5 hrs drive. 600k for the total catchment. Just like NQ Cowboys catchment stretches up to Cape York (Far NQ)

 

[CC_Roosters]

National second tier.

A competition for teams no longer able to compete at the top level (eg. Newtown, Brisbane Easts, Brisbane Norths), teams aspiring to enter the NRL in the short to medium term (eg. Reds, Bears, Wellington, Port Moresby, Adelaide), and strategic smaller markets not yet big enough to support an NRL franchise (eg. Mackay, Toowoomba, Albury-Wodonga).

Leigh.

Agreed. Give them a more pretigious national championship to play for.

I imagine a lot of the transport etc.... would need to be centrally funded initially to help clubs minimise costs and give them the best chance of sucess. Also a good vehicle to put current prospective expansion sides like central coast and CQ so at least they have a presence in a national comp. Some of the larger CRL groups would be likely candidates as well

Perhaps a 2 tier system would be suitable. Say 2, 8 team divisions with promotion/relegation. Plus then a knockout cup between the 2 comps as well, looking at 14 regular games plus finals plus however far you progress in the cup.
We have a good spread this year in Adelaide, Perth and Darwin. The next logical step for me is- Tassie for points, Perth x 2 (or 3), Cairns, Christchurch annually.

Ideally in a season
-Darwin x 1 (involving Cowboys where possible, so they can build their supporter base). Tempting to have Roosters V cowboys annually but might get stale.
-Perth x 2 souths to continue their good work and another sydney club to sell a game.
-Adelaide x 2 Bulldogs to continue and maybe cronulla to sell a game their too
-Cairns- either a Cowboys home game v low drawing opposition or a sydney clubs home game v cowboys.
-Christchurch- involving warriors obviously
-Tassie- involving storm

 

[Perth Red]

With an average wage of $30k for a 20 man squad supplemented by surplus NRL squad players at zero cost, that's a salary cap of $600k, not $2m. Double that for travel (ie. $2k per player for 15 away games per year) for squad and travel costs of around $1.2m per year. Offset that against a $200k - $300k affliate payment from each NRL club for providing places for reserve players (the current amount NRL clubs spend on NSW and Qld Cup sides). So call it an even $1m grant per team from the ARLC before sponsorships etc. Obviously that's vastly simplified (insurance, coaching, marketing etc) but the economics of this don't have to be unrealistic.

Leigh.

Not a chance, the NSW cup and Q'land cup clubs are already operating on $1mill+ budgets. If we want the comp to be made up of FT players then you are looking at $70-80k min salary. Or it is a amateur comp with pay per play contracts but then the likelihood of it being any value to NRL clubs is minimal. A Perth team would be looking at a travel and accom budget of around $250-300K a season. Then add in ground hire, back room staff salaries etc etc and it is a multi million$ budget we are talking about.

Then there is the risk to the NSW and Q'land cup teams that don;t get in the national comp of disappearing into oblivion.Sorry just can;t see it happening.

Better would be to keep running the NSW and Q'land cups as 2 conferneces under a rebranded National Comp title, bring in new areas into those comps, shorten the regular season and have a end of season cup comp between the two conferences.

Australasian Harvey Norman Cup

Northern Conference
Existing Q'land cup Teams
PNG
Darwin
Perth

Southern Conference
NSW cup teams
Melbourne
Adelaide
Wellington
Christchurch

 

[bad boy bubby]

Each team to take 1 trial and 2 season games (either home games or if they can convince the other team away games)

WA Reds - Darwin
Mebourne - Hobart
Cowboys - Cairns
Titans - PNG
Manly - CQ (if suitable venue built)
Sharks - Adelaide
Warriors - Wellington
Panthers - Christchurch

Would need to be a serious long term committment by clubs with link ups at the state comp level of administration, jnr development programmes and Govt support. NRL to chip in a decent amount of development money for each area and subsidy for teams costs.

Huh? Perth do not even have a team in the NRL and the Cowboys have been covering that area for years.
Perth is still a regional area in regards to rugby league. They can keep Souths as the sponsored group of the area.

 

[Goddo]

Not a chance, the NSW cup and Q'land cup clubs are already operating on $1mill+ budgets. If we want the comp to be made up of FT players then you are looking at $70-80k min salary. Or it is a amateur comp with pay per play contracts but then the likelihood of it being any value to NRL clubs is minimal. A Perth team would be looking at a travel and accom budget of around $250-300K a season. Then add in ground hire, back room staff salaries etc etc and it is a multi million$ budget we are talking about.

Then there is the risk to the NSW and Q'land cup teams that don;t get in the national comp of disappearing into oblivion.Sorry just can;t see it happening.

Better would be to keep running the NSW and Q'land cups as 2 conferneces under a rebranded National Comp title, bring in new areas into those comps, shorten the regular season and have a end of season cup comp between the two conferences.

Australasian Harvey Norman Cup

Northern Conference
Existing Q'land cup Teams
PNG
Darwin
Perth

Southern Conference
NSW cup teams
Melbourne
Adelaide
Wellington
Christchurch

This is closer to the money.

Except I don't see the cup idea working, at least not in the next decade.

Start with small steps anyway. First thing is to get the NSW and Qld cups finishing a week or two before the NRL grand final.

Then you have the winners of NSW and Qld Cup play as a curtain raiser for the NRL GF.

 

[Timbo]

Leigh, are you suggesting we abolish Queensland Cup and NSW Cup?

There's actually some merit to that idea when you think about it. If we deep-sixed the New South Wales and Queensland Cups and replaced it with a National Reserves Competition that played out of potential expansion areas then it could actually work.

Especially if, actually particularly if, the NRL let the telecasting of the Toyota Cup expire and saw 2 games a week of this televised.

However, a few roadblocks:

1 - The NSWRL would never give up te NSW Cup.
2 - The QRL would never give up the QLD Cup.
3 - You'd need to give concessions to the teams that adopted far away teams (Perth, Adelaide, Christchurch) to compensate for the excess travel.
4 - You'd need to keep some of the traditional second tier teams. Clubs like Newtown are good for the game at the local level.

But still... Really not a terrible idea at all.

Could have:

1-Eastern Suburbs -------> Newtown
2-South Sydney ---------> North Sydney
3-Wests ----------------> Perth
4-Manly -----------------> North Coast
5-Cronulla ---------------> Adelaide
6-Canterbury ------------> Central Queensland
7-Penrith ----------------> Darwin
8-St. George -------------> South Coast
9-Parramatta ------------> Christchurch
10-Newcastle ------------> Central Coast
11-Brisbane --------------> Toowoomba
12-Gold Coast ------------> Sunshine Coast
13-North Queensland -----> Cairns
14-Melbourne ------------> Hobart
15-Canberra -------------> Tamworth
16-Auckland -------------> Wellington

-----

I've more or less randomly allocated regional centres to NRL Clubs, there was no real thought or reason there.

But if - and only if - the NSW Cup and QLD Cup were to be abolished, the NRLC stopped having the Toyota Cup televised and replaced it with TV Coverage of this and finally if the clubs all agreed that for the greater good of the game they'd send their spare players to Darwin, Christchurch or Hobart...

Then I think the idea could have legs.

 

[docbrown]

Huh? Perth do not even have a team in the NRL and the Cowboys have been covering that area for years.
Perth is still a regional area in regards to rugby league. They can keep Souths as the sponsored group of the area.

North Qld Cowboys vs WA Reds in Darwin every year.

 

[docbrown]

This is closer to the money.

Except I don't see the cup idea working, at least not in the next decade.

Start with small steps anyway. First thing is to get the NSW and Qld cups finishing a week or two before the NRL grand final.

Then you have the winners of NSW and Qld Cup play as a curtain raiser for the NRL GF.

Yep but I'd go one step further and have a challenge cup style seeded play off.

Week 1 -
Round 1 - Allied States Grand Final Winners Knockout - 2 advance
Round 2 - Pacific Islands club competition winners knockout - 2 advance
PNG, NZ, NSW & QLD comps need to be decided by this week

Week 2 - (NRL Finals Week 2)
Round 3 - PNG, NZ, NSW, QLD grand final winners plus Rnd 1 & 2 winners - 4 advance

Week 3 - (NRL Finals Week 3)
Round 4- Prelim Finals - 2 advance

Week 4 - (NRL Grand Final Week)
Round 5 - Challenge Cup Final

 

[Lockyer4President!]

North Qld Cowboys vs WA Reds in Darwin every year.

I don't think that the Reds should take any home games on the road and tbh I'm not keen on the Cowboys taking home games away from Townsville (unless it's to Cairns when/if they get the new stadium).

Expansion areas need to look after their own backyard as a sole priority. It should be Sydney teams which take their Cowboys and Reds games up there to play.

When Brisbane gets a second team then the Broncos can take games on the road aswell (The new Bris team shouldn't take any game on the road for the first few years at least imo).

 

[Quidgybo]

As for travel, $2k per head sounds small to me. Average flight on a busy Sydney to Brisbane route is around $120-150 each way. Yes there are special fares occasionally, but they don't travel on the bare bones tickets - I'd have to believe that they'd buy flights with some flexibility included. Even with discounts for large groups etc, I can't see travel costs being much under $5k per head, (plus accommodation, meals etc).

So even at $200 each way and three night's accommodation at $200 a night, you're still only at $1000. Each player is going to spend more than $1000 on meals and transport in three days? By basing it on 15 away games per year (instead of the more realistic 11 or 12 for most teams not making the finals) and over estimating on flights, accommodation and expenses there's already plenty of slack in that figure.

But of course you wouldn't do it that way with each club negotiating their own travel (and some clubs having much higher burden than others). You'd pay for it centrally and roll it into the existing NRL travel deal to take advantage of the economies of scale.

Leigh, are you suggesting we abolish Queensland Cup and NSW Cup?

Not necessarily. Perhaps building on the existing foundation of the Queensland Cup and the existing *working* economics of that competition is a better approach. That would certainly provide some historical symmetry. The biggest competition in NSW became the foundation of the top level national competition (and in the process left the traditional Queensland clubs outcasts with an uncertain future). It seems a natural next step that the biggest competition in Queensland would become the foundation for the second national competition.

Assuming the Reds are one of the expansion clubs in an 18 team NRL then perhaps something like...

10 existing Queensland Cup teams
2 Sydney teams (Newtown and Norths)
3 Regional NSW teams (New England, Mid West, Albury-Wodonga)
1 Adelaide
2 New Zealand (Auckland and Christchurch)

Free market on NRL club affliations but can only be one to one and competition has exclusivity on access to NRL registered players. Aim for Saturday afternoon double header on ABC2 with one match from Brisbane and one from Sydney.

Future expansion to...

Melbourne 2
Perth 2
PNG
Any club that drops out of the NRL

Leigh.