What's new
The Front Row Forums

Register a free account today to become a member of the world's largest Rugby League discussion forum! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Round 18 v Broncos

Luke Bowden

First Grade
Messages
6,966
At the Panthers, yes. In the (now distant) past it was for any team. No so much these days. Players like Edwards and to an extent Gutherson have shone a light back to fullback as being a valuable defensive position - but it hasn't been considered a valuable defensive position for more than 20 years - other than being able to contest/catch bombs consistently well.
The FB organises the entire defensive line, has done forever.
Anyone that doesn’t understand that, doesn’t know what they are talking about.
 

The Realist

Juniors
Messages
1,764
The FB organises the entire defensive line, has done forever.
Anyone that doesn’t understand that, doesn’t know what they are talking about.

This wouldn't be another 'I'm an expert' and the rest of you are unwashed plebs post huh? Not like that would be true to any sort of form.

Tell me Sir, in the last 20 years, how many fullbacks have been selected because they were good organisers out the back, VS they are a dangerous ball runner or great ball player?

There have been plenty of Centres, 2nd rowers, more than the odd front rower, heck even the odd half who have been selected almost solely on their defensive attributes. Basically, never happens for fullback until arguably Edwards.
 

WestyLife

First Grade
Messages
6,791
This wouldn't be another 'I'm an expert' and the rest of you are unwashed plebs post huh? Not like that would be true to any sort of form.

Tell me Sir, in the last 20 years, how many fullbacks have been selected because they were good organisers out the back, VS they are a dangerous ball runner or great ball player?

There have been plenty of Centres, 2nd rowers, more than the odd front rower, heck even the odd half who have been selected almost solely on their defensive attributes. Basically, never happens for fullback until arguably Edwards.

Organising the defence and being a good defender are different things that you guys are saying here.
 

Aliceinwonderland

First Grade
Messages
7,763
Organising the defence and being a good defender are different things that you guys are saying here.


Exactly. To some extent Pickles has changed the way fullbacks play. His communication and ability to assist other players into appropriate defensive structures is something quite new.

In the same way To'o attacks from the backfield. A new part of being an elite winger.
 

Luke Bowden

First Grade
Messages
6,966
This wouldn't be another 'I'm an expert' and the rest of you are unwashed plebs post huh? Not like that would be true to any sort of form.

Tell me Sir, in the last 20 years, how many fullbacks have been selected because they were good organisers out the back, VS they are a dangerous ball runner or great ball player?

There have been plenty of Centres, 2nd rowers, more than the odd front rower, heck even the odd half who have been selected almost solely on their defensive attributes. Basically, never happens for fullback until arguably Edwards.

You pretty much won’t make it in the NRL as a FB if you can’t organise a defence.

It’s 100% on the FB to do that.

FB’s defensive responsibilities include, Tackling (obviously) positioning themselves to defend kicks (all kicks) and most importantly organising the entire defensive line, including changing patterns.

All of the NRL FB’s do this, some just aren’t as good as the others. But all the top teams have excellent defensive FB’s

Which other position in the team has as many responsibilities in defence?
 

Frankus

Juniors
Messages
2,192
Exactly. To some extent Pickles has changed the way fullbacks play. His communication and ability to assist other players into appropriate defensive structures is something quite new.

In the same way To'o attacks from the backfield. A new part of being an elite winger.
What is Dylan doing that the likes of say Billy Slater wasn't? Heck there are a heap of articles saying Billy changed the way fullbacks play. In each it will probably talk about structure, etc. This is nothing new Dylan is doing. He just does it better than all the other fullbacks.

Attacking from the backfield is nothing new. The likes of Tuqiri and Sailor were doing that decades ago, they were like extra forwards on the field eating up a heap of metres, go back further Eric Grothe Snr. Come to 2023/34 To'o just does it better than all the other wingers.
 

Chins get the wins

First Grade
Messages
6,442
What is Dylan doing that the likes of say Billy Slater wasn't? Heck there are a heap of articles saying Billy changed the way fullbacks play. In each it will probably talk about structure, etc. This is nothing new Dylan is doing. He just does it better than all the other fullbacks.

Attacking from the backfield is nothing new. The likes of Tuqiri and Sailor were doing that decades ago, they were like extra forwards on the field eating up a heap of metres, go back further Eric Grothe Snr. Come to 2023/34 To'o just does it better than all the other wingers.
Dylan might be the fittest ever but apart from that he's not bringing anything new.

Unpopular opinion time. Mini was better than Billy, sucks he f**ked his back/neck and was taken out of the game for so long.

To'o has changed the whole position. He's a 1 of 1 but other are trying to copy
 

Frankus

Juniors
Messages
2,192
Dylan might be the fittest ever but apart from that he's not bringing anything new.

Unpopular opinion time. Mini was better than Billy, sucks he f**ked his back/neck and was taken out of the game for so long.

To'o has changed the whole position. He's a 1 of 1 but other are trying to copy
Yeah very unpopular opinion regarding Minichello.
And we can agree to disagree on To’o. To’o is the best winger in the comp, by a mile. But he hasn’t changed shit.
 

Chins get the wins

First Grade
Messages
6,442
Yeah very unpopular opinion regarding Minichello.
And we can agree to disagree on To’o. To’o is the best winger in the comp, by a mile. But he hasn’t changed shit.
Go look at the meters made by the wingers you mentioned then come back. They didn't do ANYTHING like the work To'o does.
100m was a big game
 

Frankus

Juniors
Messages
2,192
Go look at the meters made by the wingers you mentioned then come back. They didn't do ANYTHING like the work To'o does.
100m was a big game
Did they even track metres back then? I’ll take your word for it.

Mansour for example - To’o just does everything better than he did. Faster, stronger, maybe fitter, more metres per carry. Just my take of course.
 

Aliceinwonderland

First Grade
Messages
7,763
What is Dylan doing that the likes of say Billy Slater wasn't? Heck there are a heap of articles saying Billy changed the way fullbacks play. In each it will probably talk about structure, etc. This is nothing new Dylan is doing. He just does it better than all the other fullbacks.

Attacking from the backfield is nothing new. The likes of Tuqiri and Sailor were doing that decades ago, they were like extra forwards on the field eating up a heap of metres, go back further Eric Grothe Snr. Come to 2023/34 To'o just does it better than all the other wingers.


Slater didn't bring the meters from the backfield that Pickles does. Most serious students of the game acknowledge how Pickles has changed the fullbacks role from when Slater was running round.

Neither Sailor nor Turgiri bought the same skill set that To'o does. Running 100 meters per game for those was considered a great game. To'o is bringing 200-250 meters most games, that's without the athletic ability that To'o brings.

That's without his positional play and defensive reads. He's the best winger that game has seen so far.
 

Frankus

Juniors
Messages
2,192
Slater didn't bring the meters from the backfield that Pickles does. Most serious students of the game acknowledge how Pickles has changed the fullbacks role from when Slater was running round.

Neither Sailor nor Turgiri bought the same skill set that To'o does. Running 100 meters per game for those was considered a great game. To'o is bringing 200-250 meters most games, that's without the athletic ability that To'o brings.

That's without his positional play and defensive reads. He's the best winger that game has seen so far.
RTS, Tedesco probably others (I CBF looking up stats) were making huge metres 4,5,6,7years ago. Basically before Edwards had even secured his spot in FG. He hasn’t revolutionised the position. Hell they introduced a new rule because of Slater.

As I said, To’o is the best winger in the game by a mile, but I’m sure there has been other wingers eating 200m a game if you look back through previous seasons. I don’t feel this is anything new as the game has evolved.
 

Original Name

Juniors
Messages
1,344
As I said, To’o is the best winger in the game by a mile, but I’m sure there has been other wingers eating 200m a game if you look back through previous seasons. I don’t feel this is anything new as the game has evolved.
There haven't been. Blake Ferguson had one season where he got the closest but besides that no one else was really close.
 

WestyLife

First Grade
Messages
6,791
There haven't been. Blake Ferguson had one season where he got the closest but besides that no one else was really close.

Even so the role itself hasn't changed. They're just doing it better for various reason some of which is how the team plays as a whole. Both To'o and Edwards are great at what they do but neither have changed their position in any way.
 

maple_69

Bench
Messages
4,506
I think both can be right. To'o isn't doing anything different, but the fact that his metreage (as just one attribute he excels in) is consistently such a significant level above anyone in history means he has in fact changed the position and how teams gameplan. There have sporadically been strong metreage wingers, but one that brings 200-250 metres every single game, allowing the middles to basically only take front foot carries means their roles also change (they focus on defensive line speed) and other teams packs then need to compete with these fresh middles. How do they do that, get a poor man's To'o and get rid of the Jason Saabs of the world or get blown to shit up the middle. Or they kick it away from him all game and our kick pressure can load up knowing where the kicker wants to get the ball and our right winger/fullback can position themselves better to take the ball on the full.
 

Fangs

Coach
Messages
12,140
Yards can be misleading. I recall Nick Youngquest pulling some big numbers at fullback for Penrith.

Its when you dig a little deeper that you get the real picture:

- 2nd all run metres (Guess who is first)

- 3rd post contact metres (1st on average...no other outside back comes close)

- 12th kick return metres (Top 10 dominated by fullbacks and teams are smart not to kick long towards To'o).

And he continues to deliver at that level year after year. Amazing consistency.

Throw in the fact he is 1st for tackle breaks. He regularly takes tough carries from inside the red zone. He gets a quick play the ball on nearly every carry (Wish I had an accurate number on that). He is one of the best finishers in the competition as well. An absolute machine.

If you were to knock him its his height. In the Rooney/Lewis days he probably goes a step down to Matt Utai. But you don't see those high ball contests as much in the modern game.
 
Top