Round 18 V Manly

[umina panther]

It is not at all. Stats alone don't say the story. Do you think we beat Cowboys if Morgan and others don't go off? I don't. Yet stats say we beat the Grand Finalists

Things aren't Black and white. Ignoring the grey gives a different story

Yep it goes well beyond stats.....we also play awful non threatening football

 

[OldPanther]

It is not at all. Stats alone don't say the story. Do you think we beat Cowboys if Morgan and others don't go off? I don't. Yet stats say we beat the Grand Finalists

Things aren't Black and white. Ignoring the grey gives a different story

What matters is can we beat good teams. The stats say no and our structures are terrible(something legends of the game have also mentioned).

 

[franklin2323]

What matters is can we beat good teams. The stats say no and our structures are terrible(something legends of the game have also mentioned).

Again with the black and white we haven't the players to be a top 4. The grey is adding Maloney. Edwards and Cleary knowing each other game well. This is why we added 5k members from this time last year.

Soward has us finishing 5th. He played under such structures and isn't a fan of the coach. So would be critical of such things. So to be so high must say something

 

[mxlegend99]

What matters is can we beat good teams. The stats say no and our structures are terrible(something legends of the game have also mentioned).

Shit teams can be beaten on skill alone. When you lose the skill advantage coaching becomes more important.

Yet apparently winning 8% of those games is perfectly acceptable

 

[OldPanther]

Again with the black and white we haven't the players to be a top 4. The grey is adding Maloney. Edwards and Cleary knowing each other game well. This is why we added 5k members from this time last year.

Soward has us finishing 5th. He played under such structures and isn't a fan of the coach. So would be critical of such things. So to be so high must say something

Did you see last nights game? The Cowboys were running genuine attacking structures but they came off looking a bit wrong because the players weren't on their game. Compare that to our lack of structure and you'll see the difference in coaching regardless of roster.

 

[franklin2323]

Did you see last nights game? The Cowboys were running genuine attacking structures but they came off looking a bit wrong because the players weren't on their game. Compare that to our lack of structure and you'll see the difference in coaching regardless of roster.

Give us JT and Morgan running the show. We'd have the same within a year. Remember the 7 tackle v Sharks. The comeback v Roosters? They had a few years of just making finals before they came the best. Same too the Storm it isn't just like a switch you can turn on

 

[OldPanther]

Give us JT and Morgan running the show. We'd have the same within a year. Remember the 7 tackle v Sharks. The comeback v Roosters? They had a few years of just making finals before they came the best. Same too the Storm it isn't just like a switch you can turn on

That's beside the point of what I was getting at. You can see where coaching and roster faults come into play on the field. They don't just walk out and run attacking plays because they have JT in the team. Without a coach creating gameplans etc. you'll get nowhere.

You could see them run the plays last night but the players where inadequate at the time. According to your argument that should be us right now until the roster develops but we can't even manage to get that far.

 

[mxlegend99]

Give us JT and Morgan running the show. We'd have the same within a year. Remember the 7 tackle v Sharks. The comeback v Roosters? They had a few years of just making finals before they came the best. Same too the Storm it isn't just like a switch you can turn on

Cowboys won the grand final in their second season under Green. Have never missed the finals and always been a threat.

2014: 5th. Deafeated all top 4 teams except us. Eliminated week 2 of finals though.
2015: 3rd. Won premiership
2016: 4th. Eliminated week 3 of finals
2017: 8th. Made grand final

Those are Greens only 4 years coaching in the NRL. Before him Cowboys were a fringe top 8 side at best. Purely due to their roster.

Thurston is the best half in the game, but he alone cant win the tough games without a good coach and game plans. He's useless without his backs and forwards doing their thing for the team.

From day one Green had his team competitive against and beating top 4 teams.

 

[franklin2323]

That's beside the point of what I was getting at. You can see where coaching and roster faults come into play on the field. They don't just walk out and run attacking plays because they have JT in the team. Without a coach creating gameplans etc. you'll get nowhere.

You could see them run the plays last night but the players where inadequate at the time. According to your argument that should be us right now until the roster develops but we can't even manage to get that far.

JT plays SOO and tests and is just as good. The top players do that kinda stuff. It goes further though look at their age:

Coote 28
Winterstein 30
Linnett 29
O'Neill 27
Feldt 27
Morgan 27
JT 34
Scott 33
Granville 29
McLean 27
Lowe 27
Cooper 30

And so on. We aren't talking a team of rookies. When JT and these guys start to retire. Do you expect they will get worse? We are on the way up. These sides are complete

 

[OldPanther]

JT plays SOO and tests and is just as good. The top players do that kinda stuff. It goes further though look at their age:

Coote 28
Winterstein 30
Linnett 29
O'Neill 27
Feldt 27
Morgan 27
JT 34
Scott 33
Granville 29
McLean 27
Lowe 27
Cooper 30

And so on. We aren't talking a team of rookies. When JT and these guys start to retire. Do you expect they will get worse? We are on the way up. These sides are complete

To clarify are you saying the quality of player is making the coach look good, even in a game where it looks like the coaching is on point but the players are off their game?

 

[umina panther]

JT plays SOO and tests and is just as good. The top players do that kinda stuff. It goes further though look at their age:

Coote 28
Winterstein 30
Linnett 29
O'Neill 27
Feldt 27
Morgan 27
JT 34
Scott 33
Granville 29
McLean 27
Lowe 27
Cooper 30

And so on. We aren't talking a team of rookies. When JT and these guys start to retire. Do you expect they will get worse? We are on the way up. These sides are complete

We were far worse at the end of 2017 than the end of 2016 though. Why are we on the way up?

 

[franklin2323]

To clarify are you saying the quality of player is making the coach look good, even in a game where it looks like the coaching is on point but the players are off their game?

I point you to the Bathurst game this year. We did what the coach said and scored tries. The structure is all the coach does once that sinks it players can do it. Do you think Brandy is coaching the halves to bomb after 5 one up tackles? Yet we did that most times last year

 

[mxlegend99]

JT plays SOO and tests and is just as good. The top players do that kinda stuff. It goes further though look at their age:

Coote 28
Winterstein 30
Linnett 29
O'Neill 27
Feldt 27
Morgan 27
JT 34
Scott 33
Granville 29
McLean 27
Lowe 27
Cooper 30

And so on. We aren't talking a team of rookies. When JT and these guys start to retire. Do you expect they will get worse? We are on the way up. These sides are complete

Yep. Adding a year to a players age magically makes them better. Thats why every year is a new career best for each player.

Yet we added a year to all our players ages in 2017, added in international who has won a grand final and won less games than 2016. Finishing lower on the ladder.

 

[mxlegend99]

I point you to the Bathurst game this year. We did what the coach said and scored tries. The structure is all the coach does once that sinks it players can do it. Do you think Brandy is coaching the halves to bomb after 5 one up tackles? Yet we did that most times last year

That was purely Moylan instinct and desparation. The coach might have given him a vague instruction. But that was not structured. Whag Moylan did there was impossible to structure or replicate. It wasn't set plays. He was playing what he saw probing the defence for an opening.

 

[franklin2323]

We were far worse at the end of 2017 than the end of 2016 though. Why are we on the way up?

End of 2016 Moylan was playing amazing. Like at the end of 2014 that covered some average performances.

Last year we conceded only 10 tries in the last 20 mins of games all year. We were winning as a team usually a different player each week lifted.

If you told me after 2014 that 3 years later we would win a semi without Soward or Moylan I would of called you crazy.

RCG early on was ordinary came to be a test player. Mansour wasn't at his best but ACL's do that. Kikau looks far less mistake riddled now. Even allowing for an average coach natural progression should see improvement.

Throw in Maloney who has played under many coaches and at the same level and the coach should have limited imput.

 

[mxlegend99]

End of 2016 Moylan was playing amazing. Like at the end of 2014 that covered some average performances.

Last year we conceded only 10 tries in the last 20 mins of games all year. We were winning as a team usually a different player each week lifted.

If you told me after 2014 that 3 years later we would win a semi without Soward or Moylan I would of called you crazy.

RCG early on was ordinary came to be a test player. Mansour wasn't at his best but ACL's do that. Kikau looks far less mistake riddled now. Even allowing for an average coach natural progression should see improvement.

Throw in Maloney who has played under many coaches and at the same level and the coach should have limited imput.

That's the only impressive stat from 2017 really. Although a few of those tries were to lose the games unfortunately.

You're still making alot of assumptions though. Assumptions that should have applied from 2016 to 2017 and weren't the case.

 

[OldPanther]

I point you to the Bathurst game this year. We did what the coach said and scored tries. The structure is all the coach does once that sinks it players can do it. Do you think Brandy is coaching the halves to bomb after 5 one up tackles? Yet we did that most times last year

I think you're downplaying the coach and uplifting the players when it suits the argument and reverse when it suits.

Even in that game there was no attacking structure. Moylan did it on skill. We need to combine skill and good coaching to succeed. We do have players good enough if the coach can get it right at training.

 

[TheFrog]

Even in that game there was no attacking structure. Moylan did it on skill. We need to combine skill and good coaching to succeed. We do have players good enough if the coach can get it right at training.

My feeling on that game is that the Raiders were (relatively) fat and unfit and couldn't play out the 80. For most of the second half they had the ball but once we got some sustained possession they weren't able to cope. Moylan standing and offloading like Arthur Beetson in the shadows of fulltime with the game in the balance won't soon be forgotten, but really should not have been allowed to happen.

 

[Black Magik]

Dragons beat us in round 1. Could we have been in form slump?

They were a team who went through a form slump. We played them during that. Their position on the ladder kept changing through that slump.

They were only ever keeping a top 4 spot warm for an actual top 4 side. A bit like the Dragons. They were in first place after smashing us Round 1.

I guess beating the Tigers in Round 2 counts as a top 4 victory aswell then? After Round 1 the Dragons and Tigers were in the top 4. Warriors were in the top 8. If occupying that spot temporarily counted theres atleast 6 top 4 teams and a dozen top 8 teams.

 

[umina panther]

Dragons beat us in round 1. Could we have been in form slump?

Yes Griffin cant get teams up for games....not even round 1 as premiership favs