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Round 20 v Storm

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,545
Sure we wouldve been better but the 7 adds the polish. Api can only do so much from dummy half and yeo is just a link man.

Hughes is the 2nd best halfback in the comp and has been there best and most consistent all year easily lol.. munster is better overall but not this year. Nicho and paps just play behind one of the most dominant packs in the comp. Hughes is a freak.

Have you seen souths without reynolds? Cody is shit... it falls apart for them. Hes the glue.

Moses is there best player

The roosters are coached by one of the greatest coaches of the modern era and walkers been very impressive.

Yes turbo is manlys best but there 7 is the qld and aus #7.

Look at all the teams that have won gfs in the last 20 years. All have great #7s.

Do i think the dogs would be in the finals with cleary.... yes. They can get down to the opposition end but cant score cause there halves are shit. Cleary changes that.

You dont rate 7s.....you truly have lost me. Youd be lucky to find one nrl fan that thinks that.

Cows never win a comp without jt. We dont win ours without gower or brandy. I could go on and on.

Both Brandy and Gower are greats of club. I was too young to remember 91 to talk about it

You forget Gower was also at the club when we ran last. Do we win in 2003 if we don't sign Priddis and Preston? I say no

It isn't Gower's fault we ran last but it takes more then 1 player to lift a side which is my point

You mention JT but what other 7 has led their team to a GF win? These days it is other positions that are more important and as such win the awards

Well I can't speak for all fans but there are plenty of polls and very few halfbacks go on to such lists


Top 4 players

Teddy
Taumololo
Cam Smith
Tom Turbo

And here in the top 10 players in the comp. Cleary is the only 7. Well Keary is too if you class him as 7 not 6

Of course it is Fullback heavy even allow for no Ponga
 

The Realist

Juniors
Messages
1,079
I am going to disagree with you here Girds89. Bennett's two latest Premierships were with Berrigan and Hornby as halfbacks. He prefers his halfbacks to simply be 'competent' and play their role whilst play with his teams has revolved around the 5/8.

Disagree also with the point you make about Melbourne. Hughes looks great in the Storm SYSTEM. So did Croft (at halfback) and Drinkwater (Fullback and 5/8) How did they turn out? Melbourne without Hughes wouldn't really miss a beat. IS he a competent, even very good - Yes.

Bellamy as a coach unlike Bennett is quite accommodating to having a single dominant half - and the other being simply competent. ATM Bellamy seems to be a Hooker>Fullback>5/8>Halfback coach with 5/8 and 1/2 being interchangeable and one could argue at times fullback is more important than Hooker for him.

There are some top coaches where I would argue Hooker would be 3rd or 4th most important player. They would be Robinson and Hasler I would consider both of these coaches as being fullback 1st, Halfback 2nd though they always seems to have a more than servicable (underratted) hooker in their good sides.

Overall I think it is an interesting debate - but the fact is that compared to 15 + years ago, the Halfbacks role has become less prominent - and the fullbacks roll has become far more prominent with the value of hookers also rising.

I guess part of the reason that halfbacks are less important now is the fact that they aren't always the 'dominant' half.

Just some food for thought in this debate. For the record our team is definitely Halfback>Hooker>5/8>Fullback where you could debate the No 2/3 spots.
 

Fangs

First Grade
Messages
5,543
It seems to vary for each team. Though usually a 7 is your go to man.

They just need to create tries and when necessary steer the team. Harder than that of course but its essentially their KPIs. Its why I don't care much about their defence. The tigers fans crapped on about Benji's defence and to this day he is still a far better half than any other player at their club. We are blessed with Cleary being the best defensive half in the comp, and he has been one of the best since his debut. But its not what you want from a 7.

We just want to share that influence so he isn't irreplaceable. Cleary isn't having an Andrew Johns affect on this team but its exactly what you want to avoid. Korisau was doing an admirable job while he was out. Luai needs to do the same now. And to a lesser extent Burton.
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,545
I am going to disagree with you here Girds89. Bennett's two latest Premierships were with Berrigan and Hornby as halfbacks. He prefers his halfbacks to simply be 'competent' and play their role whilst play with his teams has revolved around the 5/8.

Disagree also with the point you make about Melbourne. Hughes looks great in the Storm SYSTEM. So did Croft (at halfback) and Drinkwater (Fullback and 5/8) How did they turn out? Melbourne without Hughes wouldn't really miss a beat. IS he a competent, even very good - Yes.

Bellamy as a coach unlike Bennett is quite accommodating to having a single dominant half - and the other being simply competent. ATM Bellamy seems to be a Hooker>Fullback>5/8>Halfback coach with 5/8 and 1/2 being interchangeable and one could argue at times fullback is more important than Hooker for him.

There are some top coaches where I would argue Hooker would be 3rd or 4th most important player. They would be Robinson and Hasler I would consider both of these coaches as being fullback 1st, Halfback 2nd though they always seems to have a more than servicable (underratted) hooker in their good sides.

Overall I think it is an interesting debate - but the fact is that compared to 15 + years ago, the Halfbacks role has become less prominent - and the fullbacks roll has become far more prominent with the value of hookers also rising.

I guess part of the reason that halfbacks are less important now is the fact that they aren't always the 'dominant' half.

Just some food for thought in this debate. For the record our team is definitely Halfback>Hooker>5/8>Fullback where you could debate the No 2/3 spots.

Would Storm be they are still with Croft instead of Hughes?
On the flip side would Broncos improve much if Hughes was there?

Despite struggling at the Broncos I think so the team structure is just that good.

Are we at the stage where the structure is more important than an individual? I say so...Others don't.
 
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Fangs

First Grade
Messages
5,543
I'm also stoked to see Edwards as captain.

The Storm/Tigers debacle in early 2019 was a pivotal career moment for him. Cleary waited a week too long to drop him, ended up behind shafted to the wing mid-game. Not every player recovers from that and then gets named first grade captain.
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,545
It seems to vary for each team. Though usually a 7 is your go to man.

They just need to create tries and when necessary steer the team. Harder than that of course but its essentially their KPIs. Its why I don't care much about their defence. The tigers fans crapped on about Benji's defence and to this day he is still a far better half than any other player at their club. We are blessed with Cleary being the best defensive half in the comp, and he has been one of the best since his debut. But its not what you want from a 7.

We just want to share that influence so he isn't irreplaceable. Cleary isn't having an Andrew Johns affect on this team but its exactly what you want to avoid. Korisau was doing an admirable job while he was out. Luai needs to do the same now. And to a lesser extent Burton.

Alot I think to do with the rules. I like Moylan at fullback over 5/8th because he was more effective with the space he would get there. Halves couldn't get the space because of slow ruck speed
 

age.s

First Grade
Messages
5,980
I think its easy to overrate the influence of the modern fullback as a position because we have so many incredible ones running around. The inverse is true of Halfbacks, where Cleary stands out, at least in part because there's very few good ones. Chad Townsend getting a bumper contract is evidence of this.
 

Pomoz

Juniors
Messages
2,385
Structure vs individual skill is an interesting argument. Bellamy is a brilliant coach who in the past has accommodated individually brilliant players like Smith and Slater and now provides a platform for lesser players to shine like Hughes. Because he can do that doesn't make halfbacks less important. I think he adapts to what the skill set of his team is which highlights why he is such a brilliant coach.

"When player x retires that will see the Storm struggle" has been said by many commentators. Yet here they are setting records without a generation of players considered hall of famers. Yet Bellamy himself is a once in a generation coach who is in the discussion for the GOAT. So because he can make structure deliver superior performances does that mean structure is the answer?

It would seem to me that the answer to structure vs individual skill entirely depends on the coach and the mix of players. If you have a GOAT coach, or even a good one, I guess structure can win, but you still need some decent players to make it work. Alternatively, if you have Andrew Johns, JT or even our very own Brandy, then a halfback can be the difference and structure is less important.

In any case, I think the argument is a bit misguided. It doesn't matter if the player is 1, 6, 7 or 9 a team needs a player that will direct the team and provide moments of inspiration. That can be done by a player in any spine position. However, the 7 does get their hands on the ball more often than the other positions besides hooker so they have a greater chance to influence the game. How would Turbo be if he didn't have DCE directing traffic and gaining field position with his kicking? Because of their influence, a poor 7 can also make a team perform badly so it can't win. Just ask the Tyrone May fan club.
 

Girds89

Juniors
Messages
926
I am going to disagree with you here Girds89. Bennett's two latest Premierships were with Berrigan and Hornby as halfbacks. He prefers his halfbacks to simply be 'competent' and play their role whilst play with his teams has revolved around the 5/8.

Disagree also with the point you make about Melbourne. Hughes looks great in the Storm SYSTEM. So did Croft (at halfback) and Drinkwater (Fullback and 5/8) How did they turn out? Melbourne without Hughes wouldn't really miss a beat. IS he a competent, even very good - Yes.

Bellamy as a coach unlike Bennett is quite accommodating to having a single dominant half - and the other being simply competent. ATM Bellamy seems to be a Hooker>Fullback>5/8>Halfback coach with 5/8 and 1/2 being interchangeable and one could argue at times fullback is more important than Hooker for him.

There are some top coaches where I would argue Hooker would be 3rd or 4th most important player. They would be Robinson and Hasler I would consider both of these coaches as being fullback 1st, Halfback 2nd though they always seems to have a more than servicable (underratted) hooker in their good sides.

Overall I think it is an interesting debate - but the fact is that compared to 15 + years ago, the Halfbacks role has become less prominent - and the fullbacks roll has become far more prominent with the value of hookers also rising.

I guess part of the reason that halfbacks are less important now is the fact that they aren't always the 'dominant' half.

Just some food for thought in this debate. For the record our team is definitely Halfback>Hooker>5/8>Fullback where you could debate the No 2/3 spots.

6 or 7 doesnt matter. You need a great organising half to be there at the back end of the year. Some 6s really play a 7 role and those bennett teams you mention are slightly different to the rabbits at the moment.

Rabbits atm reynolds is a brilliant organiser with a great kicking game. Cody tends to be average without him.

Brisbane in 06 had locky in the 6 and he was probably the best in the game at that point in time and was very much a 7 in the way he played. He got into first reciever for them alot and did the majority of their kicking. He was there organiser and the key factor in them winning.

No coincidence soward played the same way for the dragons in 2010. Hornsby played 2nd fiddle to him and sowie was the organiser and key kicker.

No real difference if its 6 or 7 but you need an organiser in at least one of those jerseys. Hence why luai has been average without cleary. He doesnt have a organiser and he isnt one. He just adds x factor.

Haha anyone downplaying hughes clearly hasnt watched him enough this year. He is capable of individual brilliance completley off his own back and he inspires the storm with his little plays. He can tear a team apart. Comparing hughes to croft and drinkwater is ridiculous. Theres a reason bellamy let those two go but went hard to extend hughes. Bellamy is the best coach ever and know how important he is to their success. Munster isnt an organiser. Hes just similiar to luai and produces moments if x factor. Munster needs hughes.

Really not sure what your on about re bellamy and player importance. Go watch his press conferences mate. Hes pretty vocal about hughes, how important he is to their team and the fact hughes has got them through tough periods this year.

The role of an organising great half is just as important as ever. Look at the players commentators bag most for poor performances... its not the fullback or hooker. Its your halfs. Who cops it when they lose... the halfs.

Drags- ben hunt and norman
Dogs- their halfs
Cows- halfs

I could go on. Literally commentators, like joey, gould, etc who know the game better than anyone always talk about the halves not taking control of the game.

Fb and hooker help and no doubt can produce individual brilliance to help out but you need a 6 or 7 to steer the team around.
 

Girds89

Juniors
Messages
926
I am in the later camp. I still believe our teams success is based more on talent and morale than structure.

Its great we have structures etc but you need players to execute, direct and organise to complete those structures.

For us, we have been crap without our 7 and our stuctures have looked bog average because we have seriously lacked direction.

Would having api and yeo helped, sure a little but api doesnt really help with the structure, he just brings spark kenny doesnt have. Yeo plays a good link role but linking to tmay has been average.
 

The Realist

Juniors
Messages
1,079
Its great we have structures etc but you need players to execute, direct and organise to complete those structures.

For us, we have been crap without our 7 and our stuctures have looked bog average because we have seriously lacked direction.

Would having api and yeo helped, sure a little but api doesnt really help with the structure, he just brings spark kenny doesnt have. Yeo plays a good link role but linking to tmay has been average.

If your structures are so reliant on one player that they break down when he isn't playing - then either the structure is too rigid and inflexible, or the coaching is not good enough. Either way that is on Ivan.

You can literally take any 1, sometimes 2 of the best players out of the Storm and to a slightly lesser extent the Roosters spines and they still perform. Either the backup player has been trained well enough to fill in the role competently OR the coaches can adjust the structure to accommodate the strength and weakness of the replacement player(s).

Our team loses Nathan and there is a huge drop in our teams performance.
 

Girds89

Juniors
Messages
926
If your structures are so reliant on one player that they break down when he isn't playing - then either the structure is too rigid and inflexible, or the coaching is not good enough. Either way that is on Ivan.

You can literally take any 1, sometimes 2 of the best players out of the Storm and to a slightly lesser extent the Roosters spines and they still perform. Either the backup player has been trained well enough to fill in the role competently OR the coaches can adjust the structure to accommodate the strength and weakness of the replacement player(s).

Our team loses Nathan and there is a huge drop in our teams performance.

Using the storm and chooks as an example is hard one. They have possibly two of the best coaches ever.

Use your example on another club...

Quite simply what the chooks have done this year with their injuries is incredible and probably only belamy or robinson are capable of such..

But robinson decided to play a 40% fit cronk in a gf... that says something about the importance of an organising great half
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,545
I am in the later camp. I still believe our teams success is based more on talent and morale than structure.

We do have a young side. This time is good for building up to that level but I can't remember us having a bad player since Fuimaono.

Even the current guys like Naden isn't a bad player just does dumb things
 

Girds89

Juniors
Messages
926
For us to have any chance the defence needs to be top notch.

Our forwards need to aim up.

Edwards needs to have a blinder.

Kenny needs to run from dummy half.

And most importantly luai and burton need to kick well and be at their creative best.

We are up against it. Id be happy with a close game.
 

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