Rumoured and Confirmed signings - Part 4

[snickers007]

Well the CEO has said there were salary cap pressures, we moved two highly paid players, the chairman says no more long term deals. Something is going on.

Maybe it’s not $1m, but there’s a decent chance we’re over by a fair chunk.

The part I don't understand is why clubs are allowed to get into this position. The NRL has to register each contract. They know who is being paid what, and what discounts and concessions are in place.

So if we try and sign someone on a 2 year deal worth 500k a year, but we only have 300k in our salary cap for the second year, the deal should be knocked back. No ifs, buts or maybes.

If we are signing people for future years, the NRL should be enforcing the salary cap at the time they sign.

 

[herbert henry1908]

The part I don't understand is why clubs are allowed to get into this position. The NRL has to register each contract. They know who is being paid what, and what discounts and concessions are in place.

So if we try and sign someone on a 2 year deal worth 500k a year, but we only have 300k in our salary cap for the second year, the deal should be knocked back. No ifs, buts or maybes.

If we are signing people for future years, the NRL should be enforcing the salary cap at the time they sign.

They’ve now banned backended deals, but it terms of other stuff I just think they feel it’s the clubs responsibility to manage their cap.

 

[Matthew Ellis]

He was probably referring to NYC only. I just can't find them together in 2014.

I was.

 

[franklin2323]

Well the CEO has said there were salary cap pressures, we moved two highly paid players, the chairman says no more long term deals. Something is going on.

Maybe it’s not $1m, but there’s a decent chance we’re over by a fair chunk.

Say Blake and DWZ are on $600k each. That is $1.2m. Replace them with min wage players and there is the $1m saving

 

[rhino2009]

Any truth in the rumours that James Mahoney will sign for Leeds Rhinos for 2020 and later years and not Catalan Dragons?

Is it not certain that Penrith will grant Mahoney early release from his 2020 contract so he can play in Super League? I saw an interview with Cleary after last nights match where he appeared non committed about Mahoney going early. Do you think he will be granted early release and do you think his destination will be Leeds?

 

[Dave's mate]

Is it not certain that Penrith will grant Mahoney early release from his 2020 contract so he can play in Super League? I saw an interview with Cleary after last nights match where he appeared non committed about Mahoney going early. Do you think he will be granted early release and do you think his destination will be Leeds?

Jimmy is all about the money and I believe France has better tax laws? If so that's where he'll go

 

[Bob]

Is it not certain that Penrith will grant Mahoney early release from his 2020 contract so he can play in Super League? I saw an interview with Cleary after last nights match where he appeared non committed about Mahoney going early. Do you think he will be granted early release and do you think his destination will be Leeds?

I think he’ll get his early release, don’t know about going to Leeds, they would have to stay in super league, they are in the relegation zone last time I looked

 

[betcats]

Is it not certain that Penrith will grant Mahoney early release from his 2020 contract so he can play in Super League? I saw an interview with Cleary after last nights match where he appeared non committed about Mahoney going early. Do you think he will be granted early release and do you think his destination will be Leeds?

If he asks he will get it for sure.

 

[Pomoz]

Is there seriously anyone still willing to defend Phil Gould’s signing strategies?

He pretty much did the same thing he railed against when he got here. Unbelievable.


@Pomoz

I will defend a man who has done more for Panthers than just about anybody in the clubs history. You are basing your comments on a journalists' rumours. I like to work with facts and I have absolutely no knowledge of the contracts and the cap, just rumours and theories. Where is the detailed listing of our players contracts? All I know is Gus has has a history of success, in spite of making mistakes from time to time. I believe he can add up and find it hard to believe he would allow the club to be $1 million over the cap without already having a plan in place to offload players we don't want. Do you think his spreadsheets have formula errors? Do you believe the board have allowed the club to go $1 million over the cap?

I have no problem if Gus signed a player knowing we would be over the cap provided he knew who he was going to release to free up space. Personally, I would prefer to do the release first and then sign the player but sometimes the pressure to get a signature and not lose a player could lead to a timing issue.

The rubbish that gets spouted on this forum against a guy who has done his best to help the Panthers, given us repeated semi-final success and a junior pipeline as good as anything in our history, is hard to believe. I have heard you talk about rumoured "back ended contracts" when Gus has publicly come out and said he doesn't believe in them. We have no evidence of back ended contracts, but never mind, let's bag him off anyway. We have no fines for breaching the salary cap, but never mind, let's bag Gus off anyway because of a "rumour".

This rumour doesn't make sense. We are a million over the cap and yet we just signed Naden and Kenny and would have to increase Too's contract for match payments. Where is that money coming from? Are we saying DWZ and Blake were on more than a million between them? Aren't we supposed to be paying part of their deals as well? How can we afford this?

Dave and the CO were interviewed and didn't mention salary cap pressures, just complimented Gus on delivering the best junior development process in the NRL. I would have thought they might have mentioned the potential salary cap breach, especially to take the focus off the poor start to the season. Instead all I heard was praise. Did you listen to the podcast Herbert? Did I miss something?

Let's assume Gus was planning all along to release DWZ and Blake because he thought they were not giving us value, was that the wrong thing to do? Are we complaining that the emergence of juniors is putting pressure on the cap? I think it is a great problem to have and releasing players not delivering the right value is a good way to deal with it.

[Edit] Dave was interviewed, not Dave's mate.

 

[Pomoz]

The CEO has also publicly said they were moved on because of the salary cap

The chairman has said there will be no more 5 year deals

Ie. the current admin are rebuking their former GM in public, they’re clearly not happy.

No he didn't. Did you even listen to the podcast? He said they moved them on because there was better value in using the juniors. Dave O'Neil used Too as a specific example. The exact same thing that Gus said in another podcast you didn't listen to. "Trade players who haven't stepped up liked you'd hoped they would". If DWZ and Blake were watching Naden and Too against the Dragons they might realise that they are the very definition of "not stepping up" and "poor value".

The chairmen is just following the practice that Gus has already been using, hence Merrin, Soward and others being let go who weren't giving us value anymore. There was no public rebuking, except a hint that they prefer to have a bit more control (which I understand, they are held accountable). They praised Gus and said the NRL should copy what he has done with the juniors.

In your perfect world, a coach or GM picks the perfect amount to pay a player, signs only top talent and releases only players who are not good enough. Meanwhile in the real world, players like Watmough get paid a fortune to warm the bench, Thurston is released by the Bulldogs (too small), Hasler is released by the Panthers to Manly and Peachey is signed for a motza by the Titans. The Dragons release Girdler(thanks guys!) to the Panthers. All bad decisions with the benefit of hindsight.

Making mistakes is what happens at all teams. It is impossible to judge a players worth and get it exactly right. Obviously you try and minimise the mistakes, but it's what happens when you get it wrong that makes the difference.

Blake is a perfect example of this. I watched him carve teams up in the juniors. The commentators thought he was the next Greg Inglis, he was that good. He had a great year in 2018, but still wasn't as good as a number of other centres in the NRL and certainly not the next Greg Inglis. What has happened to that potential?

 

[Kilkenny]

No he didn't. Did you even listen to the podcast? He said they moved them on because there was better value in using the juniors. Dave O'Neil used Too as a specific example. The exact same thing that Gus said in another podcast you didn't listen to. "Trade players who haven't stepped up liked you'd hoped they would". If DWZ and Blake were watching Naden and Too against the Dragons they might realise that they are the very definition of "not stepping up" and "poor value".

The chairmen is just following the practice that Gus has already been using, hence Merrin, Soward and others being let go who weren't giving us value anymore. There was no public rebuking, except a hint that they prefer to have a bit more control (which I understand, they are held accountable). They praised Gus and said the NRL should copy what he has done with the juniors.

In your perfect world, a coach or GM picks the perfect amount to pay a player, signs only top talent and releases only players who are not good enough. Meanwhile in the real world, players like Watmough get paid a fortune to warm the bench, Thurston is released by the Bulldogs (too small), Hasler is released by the Panthers to Manly and Peachey is signed for a motza by the Titans. The Dragons release Girdler(thanks guys!) to the Panthers. All bad decisions with the benefit of hindsight.

Making mistakes is what happens at all teams. It is impossible to judge a players worth and get it exactly right. Obviously you try and minimise the mistakes, but it's what happens when you get it wrong that makes the difference.

Blake is a perfect example of this. I watched him carve teams up in the juniors. The commentators thought he was the next Greg Inglis, he was that good. He had a great year in 2018, but still wasn't as good as a number of other centres in the NRL and certainly not the next Greg Inglis. What has happened to that potential?

Well said.

 

[roofromoz]

I think he’ll get his early release, don’t know about going to Leeds, they would have to stay in super league, they are in the relegation zone last time I looked

Still in the relegation zone. I have read that Catalans is his likely destination.

But if this Fox League article is to be believed he may still be at Penrith next year if Tyrone May's no fault suspension is still in place.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nr...h/news-story/d79f6fd6f6d9a36655ea28651115d0ac

 

[forby]

I hope he stays then takes up an off field position coaching the junior halves. He is too valuable to lose. He has a unique ability for success!

 

[herbert henry1908]

I will defend a man who has done more for Panthers than just about anybody in the clubs history. You are basing your comments on a journalists' rumours. I like to work with facts and I have absolutely no knowledge of the contracts and the cap, just rumours and theories. Where is the detailed listing of our players contracts? All I know is Gus has has a history of success, in spite of making mistakes from time to time. I believe he can add up and find it hard to believe he would allow the club to be $1 million over the cap without already having a plan in place to offload players we don't want. Do you think his spreadsheets have formula errors? Do you believe the board have allowed the club to go $1 million over the cap?

You can support him on some things and criticise him on others, he’s not a demigod.

Just a few pages back I defended the signings he made from other clubs as good contributors, I’ve previously said he did great work in his early years here. But none of that means he escapes all criticism.

Especially when in his 7 years we didn’t make a grand final. I’m sure he would’ve been disappointed in that too.

have no problem if Gus signed a player knowing we would be over the cap provided he knew who he was going to release to free up space. Personally, I would prefer to do the release first and then sign the player but sometimes the pressure to get a signature and not lose a player could lead to a timing issue.

The problem with doing that is you won’t always be able to find someone a new home. Someone like RCG for instance is probably unmovedable right now.

The rubbish that gets spouted on this forum against a guy who has done his best to help the Panthers, given us repeated semi-final success and a junior pipeline as good as anything in our history, is hard to believe. I have heard you talk about rumoured "back ended contracts" when Gus has publicly come out and said he doesn't believe in them. We have no evidence of back ended contracts, but never mind, let's bag him off anyway. We have no fines for breaching the salary cap, but never mind, let's bag Gus off anyway because of a "rumour".

You seem to think any criticism of him is criticism of everything he did. I’m criticical of two aspects of his tenure only.

The long term deals & the coaching/admin appointments.

We’re never going to have concrete evidence of a back ended deal, but we have several sources who have said so, especially in regards to DWZ. Journalists & people who know people at the club.

This rumour doesn't make sense. We are a million over the cap and yet we just signed Naden and Kenny and would have to increase Too's contract for match payments. Where is that money coming from? Are we saying DWZ and Blake were on more than a million between them? Aren't we supposed to be paying part of their deals as well? How can we afford this?

We didn’t just lose DWZ & Blake. We’ve lost Phillips, Grant and even Merrin was in our official top 30 for this year.

Dave and the CO were interviewed and didn't mention salary cap pressures, just complimented Gus on delivering the best junior development process in the NRL. I would have thought they might have mentioned the potential salary cap breach, especially to take the focus off the poor start to the season. Instead all I heard was praise. Did you listen to the podcast Herbert? Did I miss something?

Bryan Fletcher confirms salary cap issues here

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/nrl-s-panthers-release-blake-to-eels

Even on the official site here

https://www.penrithpanthers.com.au/news/2019/06/26/blake-granted-release-to-join-parramatta/

Salary cap pressure for next year is not the same as being in breach. You aren’t in breach until you play over the cap.

Let's assume Gus was planning all along to release DWZ and Blake because he thought they were not giving us value, was that the wrong thing to do? Are we complaining that the emergence of juniors is putting pressure on the cap? I think it is a great problem to have and releasing players not delivering the right value is a good way to deal with it.

[Edit] Dave was interviewed, not Dave's mate.

Yes, I believe signing up Blake to a long term deal of he knew there was cap pressure was a mistake.

 

[herbert henry1908]

No he didn't. Did you even listen to the podcast? He said they moved them on because there was better value in using the juniors. Dave O'Neil used Too as a specific example. The exact same thing that Gus said in another podcast you didn't listen to. "Trade players who haven't stepped up liked you'd hoped they would". If DWZ and Blake were watching Naden and Too against the Dragons they might realise that they are the very definition of "not stepping up" and "poor value".

The chairmen is just following the practice that Gus has already been using, hence Merrin, Soward and others being let go who weren't giving us value anymore. There was no public rebuking, except a hint that they prefer to have a bit more control (which I understand, they are held accountable). They praised Gus and said the NRL should copy what he has done with the juniors.

In your perfect world, a coach or GM picks the perfect amount to pay a player, signs only top talent and releases only players who are not good enough. Meanwhile in the real world, players like Watmough get paid a fortune to warm the bench, Thurston is released by the Bulldogs (too small), Hasler is released by the Panthers to Manly and Peachey is signed for a motza by the Titans. The Dragons release Girdler(thanks guys!) to the Panthers. All bad decisions with the benefit of hindsight.

Making mistakes is what happens at all teams. It is impossible to judge a players worth and get it exactly right. Obviously you try and minimise the mistakes, but it's what happens when you get it wrong that makes the difference.

Blake is a perfect example of this. I watched him carve teams up in the juniors. The commentators thought he was the next Greg Inglis, he was that good. He had a great year in 2018, but still wasn't as good as a number of other centres in the NRL and certainly not the next Greg Inglis. What has happened to that potential?

Dave O’Neill is not the CEO, Bryan Fletcher is. He confirmed it was a salary cap management issue. See the links in the post above.

 

[herbert henry1908]

You’ve got the CEO saying this, and a report by Michael Chammas who is a widely respected NRL journalist.

Chammas was the one who first broke the news of DWZ leaving

 

[Coast panther]

I still dream of CHN coming back home and forming a awesome partner ship with fish

 

[franklin2323]

Jimmy is all about the money and I believe France has better tax laws? If so that's where he'll go

Better climate too is main reason

 

[Aliceinwonderland]

No he didn't. Did you even listen to the podcast? He said they moved them on because there was better value in using the juniors. Dave O'Neil used Too as a specific example. The exact same thing that Gus said in another podcast you didn't listen to. "Trade players who haven't stepped up liked you'd hoped they would". If DWZ and Blake were watching Naden and Too against the Dragons they might realise that they are the very definition of "not stepping up" and "poor value".

The chairmen is just following the practice that Gus has already been using, hence Merrin, Soward and others being let go who weren't giving us value anymore. There was no public rebuking, except a hint that they prefer to have a bit more control (which I understand, they are held accountable). They praised Gus and said the NRL should copy what he has done with the juniors.

In your perfect world, a coach or GM picks the perfect amount to pay a player, signs only top talent and releases only players who are not good enough. Meanwhile in the real world, players like Watmough get paid a fortune to warm the bench, Thurston is released by the Bulldogs (too small), Hasler is released by the Panthers to Manly and Peachey is signed for a motza by the Titans. The Dragons release Girdler(thanks guys!) to the Panthers. All bad decisions with the benefit of hindsight.

Making mistakes is what happens at all teams. It is impossible to judge a players worth and get it exactly right. Obviously you try and minimise the mistakes, but it's what happens when you get it wrong that makes the difference.

Blake is a perfect example of this. I watched him carve teams up in the juniors. The commentators thought he was the next Greg Inglis, he was that good. He had a great year in 2018, but still wasn't as good as a number of other centres in the NRL and certainly not the next Greg Inglis. What has happened to that potential?

With this being sensible and good business. To'o, Naden, Kenny, have dragged the club into contention this season. It's great to see the older blokes once again enjoying and performing well. It's the energy, youth and good old fashioned joy of playing these kids of bought. If anyone can tell me that DWZ was performing better than To'o in 2019 I book you in for an eye test.

 

[herbert henry1908]

I still dream of CHN coming back home and forming a awesome partner ship with fish

Never going to happen. There’s people at the club that think he leaked the videos.