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hineyrulz

Post Whore
Messages
131,070
Gould did a great job it would seem on their junior pathways, but he joined them in 2011 and they didn't make the GF until the year after he left, for the most part in all the time he was there they were a middle of the road club ( They made finals in four of the nine years of his tenure ) Their best finish was 4th and a prelim. That's one top four finish in nine years. Meanwhile they ( the Panthers ) had finished 2nd in 2010, the year before he started.

They then when on to finish 12th, 15th, and 10th in his first three years back at the club.

So whilst you could argue his input has and is paying dividends now, it wasn't over the few years here you're claiming he'll turn around the dogs, it was over a f**king decade, likely because that's how long it can take for a focus on junior pathways to bear real fruit.

Yet here we are, about five years into our rebuild and you're saying we need to make the GF or win the premiership to have a successful season. Bullshit mate.

Gould made plenty of errors at the Panthers regards their roster, some of which cost them dearly in the short to medium term, there is no evidence on the table to suggest he won't be doing the same at the Dogs. In fact quite the opposite, their cap for 2023 looks a disaster, and fixing it's gonna cost them quite a bit over the next few years.

He's not the messiah mate,
He’s just a very naughty boy.
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
11,088
Gould did a great job it would seem on their junior pathways, but he joined them in 2011 and they didn't make the GF until the year after he left, for the most part in all the time he was there they were a middle of the road club ( They made finals in four of the nine years of his tenure ) Their best finish was 4th and a prelim. That's one top four finish in nine years. Meanwhile they ( the Panthers ) had finished 2nd in 2010, the year before he started.

They then when on to finish 12th, 15th, and 10th in his first three years back at the club.

So whilst you could argue his input has and is paying dividends now, it wasn't over the few years here you're claiming he'll turn around the dogs, it was over a f**king decade, likely because that's how long it can take for a focus on junior pathways to bear real fruit.

Yet here we are, about five years into our rebuild and you're saying we need to make the GF or win the premiership to have a successful season. Bullshit mate.

Gould made plenty of errors at the Panthers regards their roster, some of which cost them dearly in the short to medium term, there is no evidence on the table to suggest he won't be doing the same at the Dogs. In fact quite the opposite, their cap for 2023 looks a disaster, and fixing it's gonna cost them quite a bit over the next few years.

He's not the messiah mate,

Mate he blew up their roster when he got there and started from scratch. Like I said, everyone makes mistakes, he does too. The point is that he will fix it and I don't think that it will take as long as it did at the Panthers due to not having to deal with the resurrection of the clubs financial status as well as he did at the Panthers. He was everything at the Panthers.

All he really has to worry about at the Dogs is getting the junior foundations right and then attracting the players he needs. The finances of the Dogs are second to none and they have a benefactor that will see that he can attract the star players that he will want. So it is a different kettle of fish at the Dogs and he will have a much more easier time of it to get the players he wants and he will be having a lot of fun doing it. Think Roosters or Broncos at the time when they had the Thoroughbreds helping them out.

He will also need to replace the coach soon too. Probably 2023 or 2024, but I suspect earlier then later.
 

84 Baby

Referee
Messages
23,561
OK Papalii's renegotiations could have been done around June-July, Maybe then we could have gotten him around that $450-500k mark. The point is we should have made a massive effort, not this infamous glacier pace re-signing attempts we are known for. We have too many players off contract to allow it to happen this way. Terrible management of our roster and awareness of what it would take to keep it all together with minimum defections.
We did enter early negotiations. Are you honestly assuming we left it until November 1? Moses resigned in May, Matterson was negotiated with but opted to just take up his option and we were negotiating with Gutho in July. Are you so naive to think we weren’t negotiating with the others as well? I’ve been involved with tender contract negotiations and sometimes the selling party just doesn’t come to the table.
The strategy means yes we may miss out on players and even a fair value, but the flip side is the chance we pay overs compared to market is lessened
 

hindy111

Immortal
Messages
45,666
Jeez some of you guys are so dim.

Look mate, Gus is going to do whatever it takes to get that roster in the right shape it needs to be so it's in a position to win a premiership. That means that they(the Dogs) will need to bite the bullet and move some players on that will cost them a bit on their cap. Boohoo. He did it with the Panthers and it never hurt them did it? That is what you do if you have the ability to sign better quality at the prices you want when it is available. All clubs make mistakes, the difference is having someone at the club that can structure the club so as you have juniors always coming through putting pressure on the top squad and having the ability to sign quality where it is needed. They have one of the best, if not the best at that now.

There isn't to much of a concern at this point of the rebuilding faze of his tenure at the club to be carrying some salary baggage. It's not as if anyone is realistically expecting them to be title contenders in 2022 or maybe even 2023. He is famous for constantly tinkering and adjusting the roster to suit what he wants. That is his job. What I suspect his priority in the immediate is to build the spine into one that is capable of winning the premiership.

Then also getting rid of the over paid excess players that he can replace with up and comers from within and from outside. This will take around 2-3 years to get into a position that can actually contend for a title. I expect him to be looking for a front rower or two and a fullback sooner rather then later too. Don't be surprised if he doesn't make a solid bid for Ponga next year.

But the point is don't be fooled at what he is doing right now and thinking that he is clueless. He is working towards a medium to long term goal. The roster you see now and the one that will actually win a title will probably look very different. It is a jig saw that he has just started to assemble. Realistically, the Dogs will not be title contenders for at least 3 years. The plan right now is to get them playing finals footy and with the squad that they have right now they are a decent chance. In 2023 I'm sure very few people will doubt them not making the finals and after that who knows what they will be capable of? Lets not forget they were wooden spooners this freakin year and making the finals in 2022 will be a massive achievement and most will see it as a very successful year for them.

We on the other hand need to win the premiership or at least make the GF to be considered as having a successful season and very few of us are all that confident of fulfilling that expectation. We are a chance I suppose, but who really knows? I would be way more confident if we had the same level of professionalism and coaching savvy as say the Roosters or Storm, but alas, that just seems to elude us no matter how hard we try. We just never seem to hire the right brains trust that can get us there. Oh and @Poupou Escobar we do have the money, just not the expertise to get the right merkins at our club. We always think we know better, but never hire better. Maybe one day we will.


The difference is Penrith had ripper juniors ready to step up who would be costing 150k Max but be worth 300k+ if they where established. They have a great nursery. If the Bulldogs have the same then great but a lot of average juniors will cost similar to great ones in the first year or two meaning they will have to mix their talented squad with guys who are not going to have NRL careers.

What happened in Penrith was only visible based on the 10-15 juniors who where all NRL level and many origin level from debut season.

Think Luai,Spencer,Too,Crichton,Tago,Martin and the value they got from them.
 

hindy111

Immortal
Messages
45,666
I hope we are talking to Doorey and Fariner Mariner. Dogs won't have a lot to throw at these two.
They had to sign players but how do you compare it to what Penrith did? They still used a huge core of young guys they developed with the odd big signing.
Dogs basically signed 5 huge names and 5 + well known players. Who in the squad will they get great value from?
Other clubs will start to circle their up and coming juniors.I think they must be aware there isn't a lot coming thru unlike Panthers who cleared the deck for all the talented they knew was about to burst into the scene.
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
11,088
We did enter early negotiations. Are you honestly assuming we left it until November 1? Moses resigned in May, Matterson was negotiated with but opted to just take up his option and we were negotiating with Gutho in July. Are you so naive to think we weren’t negotiating with the others as well? I’ve been involved with tender contract negotiations and sometimes the selling party just doesn’t come to the table.
The strategy means yes we may miss out on players and even a fair value, but the flip side is the chance we pay overs compared to market is lessened

Sure we would have probably started with negotiations with these players earlier then now, but what type of offers were we presenting to them? It makes all the difference mate, whether they go to market or not.

By the looks of the initial offers that were quoted in the press it is not a surprise that they opted to put a freeze on negotiations and go to market. But by the time we came in with more realistic offers it was way to late, the auction was in full swing and and we had to make bids like everyone else.

Like I said you need to make it enough of an attractive offer for players to opt out of going to auction, but not at the top of their value or overs. It is a very fine art and that is why you need to have a great team of professionals that know how to value and negotiate very well. The dark arts as they call it. Lowballing each and every time becomes tiresome and annoying to players and sometimes downright insulting.

Eventually players and managers will call your bluff and test their worth. Give them a respectful offer and then you may get a pleasant and desirable response. I don't feel either of those players would have walked if we came in with at quality offer to start with and they would of haggled over a few details like length of term and option favours and so forth, but they would have signed.

To late now. Lets hope we can do better next time or we will just repeat this nonsense again.
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
11,088
The difference is Penrith had ripper juniors ready to step up who would be costing 150k Max but be worth 300k+ if they where established. They have a great nursery. If the Bulldogs have the same then great but a lot of average juniors will cost similar to great ones in the first year or two meaning they will have to mix their talented squad with guys who are not going to have NRL careers.

What happened in Penrith was only visible based on the 10-15 juniors who where all NRL level and many origin level from debut season.

Think Luai,Spencer,Too,Crichton,Tago,Martin and the value they got from them.

Agreed Hindy, but the dogs are a club that attract players and have a history of making grand finals and winning them too. Also they have cash and external benefactors that will add more cash when needed. They are an easier club to turn around then the Panthers that many players don't see as an attractive option from a winning culture or money perspective. It has changes somewhat, but compared to the Dogs who are traditionally a winning club in every decade and only have had this flat spot in their resent history.

It is all about to be reset and put back on track again starting from 2022. Not saying they will, but I wouldn't be all that surprised it they won a title within 5 years. If we did I would be more surprised. We seem to be the perennial also rans.
 

Incorrect

First Grade
Messages
8,856
I hope we are talking to Doorey and Fariner Mariner. Dogs won't have a lot to throw at these two.
They had to sign players but how do you compare it to what Penrith did? They still used a huge core of young guys they developed with the odd big signing.
Dogs basically signed 5 huge names and 5 + well known players. Who in the squad will they get great value from?
Other clubs will start to circle their up and coming juniors.I think they must be aware there isn't a lot coming thru unlike Panthers who cleared the deck for all the talented they knew was about to burst into the scene.
Wouldn't Doorey and RFM be the sorts of blokes they need to keep because they are so cheap? It's the Cotric's and Corey Allen's that are in 300-400K+ that they need to move on....
 

Eelementary

Post Whore
Messages
53,844
Thanks for sharing mate. Respectfully both tries there he catches the pass and puts the ball down though.
I’ll go against the grain and say Sivo will come back far better and besides his lapse he scores tries that I believe no other winger in the NRL can. He is pure concrete.

All good.

It's hard to find footage of him.
 

hindy111

Immortal
Messages
45,666
Agreed Hindy, but the dogs are a club that attract players and have a history of making grand finals and winning them too. Also they have cash and external benefactors that will add more cash when needed. They are an easier club to turn around then the Panthers that many players don't see as an attractive option from a winning culture or money perspective. It has changes somewhat, but compared to the Dogs who are traditionally a winning club in every decade and only have had this flat spot in their resent history.

It is all about to be reset and put back on track again starting from 2022. Not saying they will, but I wouldn't be all that surprised it they won a title within 5 years. If we did I would be more surprised. We seem to be the perennial also rans.

Bulldogs of past. Same as Eels of the past.
The last 10yrs the world has transformed. The demographics of Bulldogs area has also. They do not have the strong juniors they once did. I doubt they ever will be one of the strongest junior development club ever.

The other thing is 10yrs ago there was plenty of clubs who where still not that professional. It was so much easier to be a step above. Now most clubs are far more stable and closer in that regards. Sure some are still better then others but it isn't a land slide like before.

Penrith is just a different club to any other Sydney one.They are in an area where so many kids play footy. And plenty of westies who have no interest in leaving the area and want to stay with family and friends. Like a lot of these talented Mnt Druit boys. They also have a big say on players in the bush.

Going from Bankstown to Bondi or Redfern isn't a huge distance.

Parra also has an advantage going the other way. Kellyville, Castle Hill area. Issue becomes imo the wealthier families don't want their kids playing rugby league as much.

In Penrith more people are just bred tougher and bought up tougher. A lot of the reason they have these great kids coming thru imo. Less mummy boys.

Think of Bondi and people like Gronk. Follow all the rules and scared to step out of line. Not exactly about to produce though rugby league players. Heck half of them would sue ypu for making their coffee to hot.
 

hindy111

Immortal
Messages
45,666
Wouldn't Doorey and RFM be the sorts of blokes they need to keep because they are so cheap? It's the Cotric's and Corey Allen's that are in 300-400K+ that they need to move on....

They are off contract end of 2022 meaning can talk to them now.
Yes the Dogs would want to keep them. Cause they hope to be cheap. Why clubs like Parra can poach them.
A guy getting 250k may leave for an extra 40k.
A guy getting 550k may need an extra 100k to move.

Moving Cotrics on is harder as under contract and on overs. To do so means losing money by chipping in. No club is taking them unless Dogs pay some.
 

emjaycee

Coach
Messages
10,700
What we should have done is offered him around $600K way back in April-May and I'm sure that he would have taken the deal after a little haggling. It is pretty obvious to me by way of all the time and wrestling with his conscious he had trying to come to a decision. But by waiting like a bunch of fools thinking that loyalty will trump CASH once there is an open auction and larger offers are waved in front of your face, they totally ballsed it up.

He is a fairly loyal type of guy, so I have very little doubt that around $600K would have made him happy and he would have taken it, but when you are lowballed at a time when your predator competitors are allowed to show you the money, well it changes everything and even the more loyal start to thinks twice, especially when you have a merkin manager in your ear telling you to work the negotiations till you get the lottery size winning offer.

Bottom line is our club blew it back in March-April-May and June when the majority of all our re-signings should have been done. I reckon both Papalii and Mahoney would have signed for around 500K and 600K respectively. By lowballing and letting other clubs serenade and flash lager offers in front of them, which makes them realised actual earnings and losses, then it makes it to hard for the player to ignore and much easier for the manager to persuade him to jump ship.

Bad management strategy in the battle to secure our talent. I hope we have learnt a major lesson here and never let this type of perfect storm shit happen again. We need to be much better at this or these type of headlines and outcomes will never cease.
Except his manager wasnt allowing him to sign back then.
 

parra pete

Coach
Messages
19,792
Contrary to many on here, I reckon Jake has a bright future ahead of him.

But he needs to get used to the speed of First Grade, and hit the weights.

Still - he's only 19. Plenty of time to develop.

But what I saw from this year, I saw a player with a good football brain, some athleticism, and a decent kicking game.

Give him a year, or two, and let's see where he is at.

He is still on L plates...he'll be fine
 
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