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Seasons 2020 - 22 COVID-19 discussion thread

strider

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72,475
This one is quite interesting ... well I find it interesting, but I'm a nutter, so I guess it depends on your perspective.

This guy is very well spoken and seems quite level headed. Professional mountain biker.
I assume Dr stuffed dog had this interview mostly because it seems this happened due to the problems he has been trying to point out with the potential for it to be administered badly and get into your blood stream.


- noticed bad taste immediately when administered (ie it got into blood stream immediately)
- took some days to really notice heart rate was up ... is concious of this because is a professional mountain bike rider and wears a heart monitor always
- had trouble on a ride - heart rate went through the roof and wouldn't settle ... straigth to hospital where he was told he was just having an anxiety attack and totally fobbed off
- eventually went to a different hospital days later who took him more seriously
- diagnosed with heart inflamation (pericarditis) - told he was lucky he got onto it early and it didn't get real bad (more like lucky he persisted and went back to hospital after being fobbed off)
- but has a bunch of other problems .... says it is like all his mountain biking injuries (wrist, broken colarbone, hip) are all flaired up - desribing it as arthritis (ie its attacking all the places he has had injuries) ..... also now has POTS (heart rate goes nuts when stand up) .... been unwell for 6 months .... been told heart now looks ok but still having issues
- interetingly, says took ivermectin to deal with it because someone said it can help .... said it did, but as soon as he stopped taking it everything just gets bad again - ie it helps but is just a symptom stopper .... says its cos it helps dull the spike protein .... this falls inline with why people think it helps deal with covid - but thats a whole different story
- he has done alot of research and found alot of others - joined a group who will present to the US FDA soon - aim to get people to acknowledge its happening and consider the mandates being imposed in light of it
- talks alot about how difficult it is get anyone to take seriously because people won't believe you .... understands ned for vax but people blindly ignoring the small number of times it goes badly
- mentions how he was lucky he has good insurance so he felt he could keep seeking treatment .... but other yanks wont because its too costly
- talks about how hard its been to even talk about it because of the stigma being associated with saying you got problems .... mentions ppl in the group he has joined who have suicided over it (seems drastic, but hey gotta walk in someones shoes to know)
- knows its not huge numbers of people, but clearly feels its being totally ignored and ridiculed if you try and speak up
- talks about how he had to enter his own VAERS entry because no doctor would do it ... says how hard it is and the detail needed (which I have heard that doctors wont bother cos its too time consuming) ... says he doesn't believe the huge numbers in vaers are wrong because its not easy to fake
 

hindy111

Immortal
Messages
41,618
This one is quite interesting ... well I find it interesting, but I'm a nutter, so I guess it depends on your perspective.

This guy is very well spoken and seems quite level headed. Professional mountain biker.
I assume Dr stuffed dog had this interview mostly because it seems this happened due to the problems he has been trying to point out with the potential for it to be administered badly and get into your blood stream.


- noticed bad taste immediately when administered (ie it got into blood stream immediately)
- took some days to really notice heart rate was up ... is concious of this because is a professional mountain bike rider and wears a heart monitor always
- had trouble on a ride - heart rate went through the roof and wouldn't settle ... straigth to hospital where he was told he was just having an anxiety attack and totally fobbed off
- eventually went to a different hospital days later who took him more seriously
- diagnosed with heart inflamation (pericarditis) - told he was lucky he got onto it early and it didn't get real bad (more like lucky he persisted and went back to hospital after being fobbed off)
- but has a bunch of other problems .... says it is like all his mountain biking injuries (wrist, broken colarbone, hip) are all flaired up - desribing it as arthritis (ie its attacking all the places he has had injuries) ..... also now has POTS (heart rate goes nuts when stand up) .... been unwell for 6 months .... been told heart now looks ok but still having issues
- interetingly, says took ivermectin to deal with it because someone said it can help .... said it did, but as soon as he stopped taking it everything just gets bad again - ie it helps but is just a symptom stopper .... says its cos it helps dull the spike protein .... this falls inline with why people think it helps deal with covid - but thats a whole different story
- he has done alot of research and found alot of others - joined a group who will present to the US FDA soon - aim to get people to acknowledge its happening and consider the mandates being imposed in light of it
- talks alot about how difficult it is get anyone to take seriously because people won't believe you .... understands ned for vax but people blindly ignoring the small number of times it goes badly
- mentions how he was lucky he has good insurance so he felt he could keep seeking treatment .... but other yanks wont because its too costly
- talks about how hard its been to even talk about it because of the stigma being associated with saying you got problems .... mentions ppl in the group he has joined who have suicided over it (seems drastic, but hey gotta walk in someones shoes to know)
- knows its not huge numbers of people, but clearly feels its being totally ignored and ridiculed if you try and speak up
- talks about how he had to enter his own VAERS entry because no doctor would do it ... says how hard it is and the detail needed (which I have heard that doctors wont bother cos its too time consuming) ... says he doesn't believe the huge numbers in vaers are wrong because its not easy to fake


My mates lymph node swelled up like a tennis ball
 

strider

Post Whore
Messages
72,475
Notice the prominant lead image 2 parapgraphs into that article? A pictire of someone who isn't referenced in the article until about 30 parapgraphs later - generally you position the pictures where they are relevant ... the image is also the big grab pic in the printed edition of the SMH .... he is not the main discussion point in the article, just part of it .... its not an accident ..... its says something about the article and the purpose of it being written.
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
61,224
This one is quite interesting ... well I find it interesting, but I'm a nutter, so I guess it depends on your perspective.

This guy is very well spoken and seems quite level headed. Professional mountain biker.
I assume Dr stuffed dog had this interview mostly because it seems this happened due to the problems he has been trying to point out with the potential for it to be administered badly and get into your blood stream.


- noticed bad taste immediately when administered (ie it got into blood stream immediately)
- took some days to really notice heart rate was up ... is concious of this because is a professional mountain bike rider and wears a heart monitor always
- had trouble on a ride - heart rate went through the roof and wouldn't settle ... straigth to hospital where he was told he was just having an anxiety attack and totally fobbed off
- eventually went to a different hospital days later who took him more seriously
- diagnosed with heart inflamation (pericarditis) - told he was lucky he got onto it early and it didn't get real bad (more like lucky he persisted and went back to hospital after being fobbed off)
- but has a bunch of other problems .... says it is like all his mountain biking injuries (wrist, broken colarbone, hip) are all flaired up - desribing it as arthritis (ie its attacking all the places he has had injuries) ..... also now has POTS (heart rate goes nuts when stand up) .... been unwell for 6 months .... been told heart now looks ok but still having issues
- interetingly, says took ivermectin to deal with it because someone said it can help .... said it did, but as soon as he stopped taking it everything just gets bad again - ie it helps but is just a symptom stopper .... says its cos it helps dull the spike protein .... this falls inline with why people think it helps deal with covid - but thats a whole different story
- he has done alot of research and found alot of others - joined a group who will present to the US FDA soon - aim to get people to acknowledge its happening and consider the mandates being imposed in light of it
- talks alot about how difficult it is get anyone to take seriously because people won't believe you .... understands ned for vax but people blindly ignoring the small number of times it goes badly
- mentions how he was lucky he has good insurance so he felt he could keep seeking treatment .... but other yanks wont because its too costly
- talks about how hard its been to even talk about it because of the stigma being associated with saying you got problems .... mentions ppl in the group he has joined who have suicided over it (seems drastic, but hey gotta walk in someones shoes to know)
- knows its not huge numbers of people, but clearly feels its being totally ignored and ridiculed if you try and speak up
- talks about how he had to enter his own VAERS entry because no doctor would do it ... says how hard it is and the detail needed (which I have heard that doctors wont bother cos its too time consuming) ... says he doesn't believe the huge numbers in vaers are wrong because its not easy to fake
If you are spooked about the chances of getting pericarditis, then you get AZ. Simples.

Data is showing that it is 10 cases per million.


But really the chances of getting pericarditis from the covid is higher and poses a greater threat to your health.

 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
61,224
Conservatives in the USA are playing the propaganda game to a population that seemingly are prepared to swallow anything.

 

strider

Post Whore
Messages
72,475
If you are spooked about the chances of getting pericarditis, then you get AZ. Simples.

Data is showing that it is 10 cases per million.


But really the chances of getting pericarditis from the covid is higher and poses a greater threat to your health.

do you read your own links? .... maybe just skim and take a fraction of it in
This is particularly seen in males under 30 years old after the second dose of mRNA vaccine.

In the US, reported rates in males were 10 cases per million after first doses, and 67 cases per million after second doses. The TGA is monitoring the risk in the Australian population.

Most myocarditis and pericarditis cases linked to mRNA vaccination have been mild and patients have recovered quickly. Longer-term follow-up of these cases is ongoing.

sure - no one is saying its huge ...... but it is real .... and it f**ks you up if you are one of the unlucky ones

and the video with kyle shows the attitudes of doctors in the USA who immediately fob people off believing its not real .... and he mentions how only people who can afford it (good insurance) will even be treated, so potentially others out there untreated ...... the numbers stated there 10/67 are the "acknowledged" cases - pretty good bet thats not real life

Heart inflamation aside ..... if you bother to watch the video or even read what I posted, the pericarditis is only part of this guy's problems

after many months he was told his heart is now ok - but he still suffers problems ...... I guess that falls into the line in your link where they claim people recover quick but "Longer-term follow-up of these cases is ongoing." - ie we did a scan and your heart looks kinda ok now, but no f**ker knows about long term, cos time simply hasn't passed
 

strider

Post Whore
Messages
72,475
do you read your own links? .... maybe just skim and take a fraction of it in


sure - no one is saying its huge ...... but it is real .... and it f**ks you up if you are one of the unlucky ones

and the video with kyle shows the attitudes of doctors in the USA who immediately fob people off believing its not real .... and he mentions how only people who can afford it (good insurance) will even be treated, so potentially others out there untreated ...... the numbers stated there 10/67 are the "acknowledged" cases - pretty good bet thats not real life

Heart inflamation aside ..... if you bother to watch the video or even read what I posted, the pericarditis is only part of this guy's problems

after many months he was told his heart is now ok - but he still suffers problems ...... I guess that falls into the line in your link where they claim people recover quick but "Longer-term follow-up of these cases is ongoing." - ie we did a scan and your heart looks kinda ok now, but no f**ker knows about long term, cos time simply hasn't passed
oh and maybe its something like what Dr stuffed dog has a bee in his bonnet about - they they simply are NOT being careful about the injections - and that might help explain why its not more widespread ..... and maybe they could do something about that

but guess what - thats just fobbed off as some conspiracy theory too

Even if it was this simple, it might help reduce the possibility .... but I guess regardless, its showing it f**ks people up if it somehow gets into your blood stream ...... which is literally what people with letters next to their name said from the start but got ridiculed
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
61,224
do you read your own links? .... maybe just skim and take a fraction of it in


sure - no one is saying its huge ...... but it is real .... and it f**ks you up if you are one of the unlucky ones

and the video with kyle shows the attitudes of doctors in the USA who immediately fob people off believing its not real .... and he mentions how only people who can afford it (good insurance) will even be treated, so potentially others out there untreated ...... the numbers stated there 10/67 are the "acknowledged" cases - pretty good bet thats not real life

Heart inflamation aside ..... if you bother to watch the video or even read what I posted, the pericarditis is only part of this guy's problems

after many months he was told his heart is now ok - but he still suffers problems ...... I guess that falls into the line in your link where they claim people recover quick but "Longer-term follow-up of these cases is ongoing." - ie we did a scan and your heart looks kinda ok now, but no f**ker knows about long term, cos time simply hasn't passed
Yes of course i read what I post. Please don’t undermine me because I am in the 95%+ cohort that have reached an alternative risk assessment than you.

IMHO It’s all a bit pointless talking about individual cases about vaccine reactions when these side effects are so rare and when the complications from covid-19 are not.
 

strider

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Messages
72,475
Yes of course i read what I post. Please don’t undermine me because I am in the 95%+ cohort that have reached an alternative risk assessment than you.

IMHO It’s all a bit pointless talking about individual cases about vaccine reactions when these side effects are so rare and when the complications from covid-19 are not.
ok - so you read it and ignored the bit where it said 67 and just went with the 10 cos it sounded better .... cool

its not pointless if you are one of the rare ones who ends up f**ked up ...... take one for the team
and I'm not convinced we know the extent of it anyway - though acknowledge its still likely quite rare ..... complications from covid are not huge in younger people either ...... but its being mandated widely and ending up not a risk judgement many people will be able to make for themselves
 

Gronk

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Staff member
Messages
61,224
ok - so you read it and ignored the bit where it said 67 and just went with the 10 cos it sounded better .... cool

its not pointless if you are one of the rare ones who ends up f**ked up ...... take one for the team
and I'm not convinced we know the extent of it anyway - though acknowledge its still likely quite rare ..... complications from covid are not huge in younger people either ...... but its being mandated widely and ending up not a risk judgement many people will be able to make for themselves
I am fully aware of the 67/1,000,000 chance of a side effect from jab 2 pfizer. I ran with the 1st dose stats cos that's what SMH did.

Serious questions; what age group are most exposed to this pfizer side effect ? What age group are you and have you spoken to your GP about this ?

So if Pfizer presents an unacceptable risk to you, then get AZ. The risk profile of AZ is crazy low, now that over 4.6 billion doses have been given in 46 countries.

 

strider

Post Whore
Messages
72,475
Conservatives in the USA are playing the propaganda game to a population that seemingly are prepared to swallow anything.

if you actually watch the video .... she is not seriously saying the US should send in the troups to australia ... thats just clickbait .... she does a comparison against afghanastan and how they sent in the troups there cos their people were being screwed over - she's trying to make out a double standard

she actually reads out a list of rules someone sent her from australia - and every rule on there is infact true, though many specifically targetted at areas

I think the yanks are misguided as the where and how the rules are being imposed here - its a bit like the bushfires .... the rest of the world literally thought the entire continent of australia was burning to the ground ..... the fires were absolutely terrible where they were, but it wasn't everywhere

absolutely its typical USA propaganda ..... that country is clearly the most divided its ever been ..... and the propaganda goes both ways

I'm quite surprised how shocked many yanks are at what is going on here (although I do also think some of what has been done in melbourne and sydney has been a f**ked overreach by government) .... I've always thought the yanks overplay their "freedom" thing - but thats not something new - they have based their entire existence on that bravado forever .... I think its being used politically over there - but thats no surprise cos practically everything is
 

strider

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Messages
72,475
I am fully aware of the 67/1,000,000 chance of a side effect from jab 2 pfizer. I ran with the 1st dose stats cos that's what SMH did.

Serious questions; what age group are most exposed to this pfizer side effect ? What age group are you and have you spoken to your GP about this ?

So if Pfizer presents an unacceptable risk to you, then get AZ. The risk profile of AZ is crazy low, now that over 4.6 billion doses have been given in 46 countries.

its not about me as an individual ...... and as we've all said all along (well some of us), I should have a choice

I've discussed enough of my personal details and opinions on here - probably more than I ever should have
 

strider

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Messages
72,475
Meanwhile, the NRL are NOT mandating it ..... though they say it may be out of their hands because there will be other issues with travel and state govts that are gonna make things tricky for clubs

I guess people might have to re-assess if they want to sit in a stadium with unvaccinated players and staff running around .... maybe it can just be more reason to hate players on opposition teams - will have to ignore any of your own tho

 

Gary Gutful

Immortal
Messages
43,227
its not about me as an individual ...... and as we've all said all along (well some of us), I should have a choice

I've discussed enough of my personal details and opinions on here - probably more than I ever should have
We know all about you - live in a shed, friend called Mik, have a thing for scary South African chicks…
 

Gronk

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Staff member
Messages
61,224
its not about me as an individual ...... and as we've all said all along (well some of us), I should have a choice

I've discussed enough of my personal details and opinions on here - probably more than I ever should have
I get it and it is a very topical debate amongst ethicists at the moment. For what it's worth, your conumdrum has not escaped me and I can absolutely sympathize.

To be truly ethical, vaccine mandates must be about more than just lifting jab rates
October 12, 2021 6.11am AEDT
Author
Matheson Russell
Associate Professor of Philosophy, University of Auckland

Disclosure statement
Matheson Russell does not work for, consult, own shares in or receive funding from any company or organisation that would benefit from this article, and has disclosed no relevant affiliations beyond their academic appointment.

As New Zealand’s race to lift vaccination rates continues, and with pressure to lift social and economic restrictions too, the role of vaccine mandates is coming into sharper focus.

Yesterday the government signalled stricter rules will apply in health and education. But while public sentiment appears to be on the side of mandatory vaccination for certain sectors, mandates are still a big stick for governments to wield.

In particular, the threat of losing a job for not being vaccinated comes close to compulsion. That’s why it’s controversial, and why it needs to clear a high threshold of justification.

Before imposing mandates, governments have an obligation to provide trustworthy information about the risks and benefits of vaccines, to encourage as many eligible people as possible to get vaccinated, and to ensure vaccines are easy to obtain and their distribution is equitable.

So far, New Zealand’s vaccine rollout has been far from equitable. The government has been accused of ignoring warnings from Māori and Pasifika health leaders, leaving those already higher-risk communities vulnerable.

Nevertheless, at this point in the pandemic, with Delta spreading, it’s clearly essential that vaccine uptake is a swift as possible. So, as well as urgently improving vaccine accessibility, is it justified to use mandates to lift numbers?

Medical mandates are different
Everyone who can get vaccinated should get vaccinated. By doing so, you protect yourself and help protect others from a potentially life-threatening virus at low risk to yourself.

Self-interest and obligations to others align. For individuals, vaccination is a win-win. What’s more, being vaccinated significantly lowers your chances of requiring intensive medical care and thereby taking up costly medical resources that others might need.

When some individuals in a community are reluctant to do what they should to secure the basic needs of that community, it is sometimes justifiable to enforce co-operation.

Governments routinely use the threat of sanctions to compel costly pro-social co-operation – for instance, by requiring taxes be paid and requiring employers to implement health and safety measures.

But being forced to have a medical procedure is a different matter. We value autonomy over our own bodies highly. We intuitively recognise it would be wrong, for example, to force someone to donate their kidney to someone else, even if it would save their life.

Overruling an individual’s bodily autonomy should be used as an absolute last resort. And this holds even if we think the decisions others are making are wrongheaded, based on misinformation or utterly selfish. This is reflected in the Human Rights Act, which grants the right to refuse any medical treatment.

However, this still leaves scope for mandates because it is not the same thing as a forced vaccination. Rather, a mandate is a legal requirement that to be in certain settings (such as bars and restaurants), or in certain roles (such as a quarantine facility worker), one must be vaccinated.

If you really don’t want to be vaccinated, you can skirt the requirement by avoiding the places and roles it’s required for. No one’s bodily autonomy is violated.

Of course, the difference between this and compulsory vaccination to retain one’s job can be technical, even semantic. If mandates are to be used, therefore, it must be in a cautious and ethical way.

Public health is paramount
It’s also important to remember the vast majority of people who have not yet been vaccinated will not be hardcore “anti-vaxxers”. As well as barriers to access, people will have a variety of reasons, including uncertainty about the vaccine, inertia, and an aversion to needles.

Mandates will nudge the uncertain to resolve their uncertainties. They will motivate the foot draggers to get to the vaccination centre. And this wouldn’t be a violation of anyone’s autonomy, since these groups don’t object to vaccination as such.

Beyond that, mandates must be based on three main principles:

they must be justified by demonstrable public health needs and not merely by their usefulness in achieving high vaccination rates

they should not discriminate against particular groups (such as treating religious meetings differently to other indoor gatherings) so everyone feels they are shouldering equitable burdens and the bonds of reciprocity don’t fray

they should be clearly about protecting public health, not shaming or shunning people; at a minimum, as Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has said, everyone should be able to access basic services such as supermarkets, hospitals and pharmacies without having to show a vaccine certificate.

The price of one’s convictions
We should aim to ensure those who refuse vaccination still have as full a range of opportunities for employment and inclusion in social life as possible.

At the same time, no principle of justice requires society to guarantee the quality of life of those who refuse medicines is the same or as good as others enjoy. If one’s convictions entail exclusion from certain activities in life, sometimes that’s just the price of sticking to one’s convictions.

Balanced judgments still need to be formed about the merits of mandates in specific settings such as schools, bars and aged-care facilities. That will require weighing the practical and legal considerations, as well as the ethical and moral.

But vaccine mandates can and should be considered as a tool. For the small number of genuine objectors who are adamant they do not want to be vaccinated, it is true mandates will make life more restrictive.

But narrowly targeted and ethically designed vaccine mandates have the potential to ensure all but diehard anti-vaxxers will get the jab sooner rather than later. No one’s basic rights of bodily autonomy need to be violated. And strong measures to ensure maximal vaccination where it matters most will benefit everyone, including the unvaccinated.

 

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