Should France and NZ get a chance to host 4N?

[parrawentyfan]

Ok International season and time for an idea on how to help grow the game just a little. We would all love to see a World Cup held fully ouside of Australia and the UK one day. Until that time comes, I think we are missing the chance to allow France and NZ to host the four nations.I think both countries could put on a well attended tournament. Below is an example of what we could do in France. Obviously this depends on selling it to the locals well and pushing travelling British fans. France would also need auto qualification. I don't think it is overly ambitious.

Opening match: France v England - Toulouse - Stade Ernst Wallon 19,000. Really push the game in Toulouse with a view to getting a SL side in there. Alternatively this could be the Paris game if we only want to go to Toulouse once.

France v Australia - Avignon - Parc des Sports - 18,000 - Decent capacity in the heartland and with a history of turning up for big games.

France v New Zealand - Montpellier - Altrand Stadium - 15,000. This is pushing into a RU stronghold but I feel it's a wasted chance if we don't at least try to push the boundaries. Might give the local Elite 1 team a boost. Alternative is Lyon but this ground is more suited. Biggest concern would be a poor showing by France on the scoreboard.

England v Australia - Albi or Carcassonne - 12,000 Both are in RL heartland and equally deserving. Pity about the running tracks but what can you do. Could swap with the Aus / NZ game.

England v New Zealand - Stade Gilbert Brutus - Perpignan - 12,000. Goes without saying Catalans home ground should get a game

Australia v New Zealand - Paris - Stade Jean Bouin 20,000 - We need a game in Paris. Either this one or France v someone. I think we might be better hoping that Aus and NZ expats attend more so than Parisiens but we should push for that also. The other stadium option (Charlety) has running tracks...

Final: Toulouse - Stade Municipal 33,000 . The stadium is big but not too big. Close enough to French RL heartland to encourage fans to attend. Push travel packages for the British which would see a decent crowd. They got a decent crowd for France vs NZ in a recent four nations from memory so a final would do well I think.

If we were to ever hold a World Cup in France, I would put the opener in Toulouse and the final in Parc des Princes. With a capacity around 48k it is big and prestigious enough. But not out of reach for a World Cup.

Anyone else have any other ideas on how it could work? Or how we could best use internationals to leverage growth in France and NZ? If either were to host the final in a co-hosted world cup that would be a great start. Pity they didn't go with Eden Park for 2017.

 

[Evil Homer]

Four Nations will not be happening again, it will be replaced by a new tournament from 2019 which will hopefully be held in France, NZ and lots of other places.

 

[parrawentyfan]

Ok. Sure. Either way. I think we need to break the cycle of Australia and England getting hosting rights for all major tournaments. Realistically France and NZ are the only alternative prospective hosts. Anyone else is a couple of decades away IMO.

I actually think NZ would do a great job even with a World Cup.

 

[Evil Homer]

Ok. Sure. Either way. I think we need to break the cycle of Australia and England getting hosting rights for all major tournaments. Realistically France and NZ are the only alternative prospective hosts. Anyone else is a couple of decades away IMO.

I actually think NZ would do a great job even with a World Cup.

USA/Canada are front runners for the 2025 WC.

 

[parrawentyfan]

I personally don't think the US / Canada are ready but am in the positive camp on that one. They are lacking any real history of attending RL in big numbers at club or international level. Not hat they've had much chance. The progress in a couple of cities has been good though.

But look at the pros -
Give RL a kickstart
Big population base and quality sports facilities
Great corporate and sponsor potential
Strike before Union takes a World Cup there which would make it that much harder for RL to succeed

 

[RoosTah]

I really hate the 4N as a concept to be frank... it feels like a stripped down WC that undermines the prestige of the WC itself. Frankly a comp where there's a grand total of 3 round robin games and then a final is just weird... and it's even weirder when one country gets hosting rights so you end up with half empty stadiums watching Australia play NZ in bloody England.

I mean FFS why was that game even played? Why didn't they just count the Perth game as the opener and save us the embarrassment of seeing the game so empty in England? The got a sell out at Perth, and they'd get sell outs in Brisbane and likely Melbourne too - heck for all the crap we get in Sydney the last mid season test at the SFS did alright as well!

I'd much rather us go back to playing 3 test series against either England or NZ in alternating years with games home and away

 

[siv]

Agree

Cant use the 4N anymore

But both have succesfully hosted World Cups

RLWC is a logical choice

Allows some variety to the England / Australia option

 

[Perth Red]

Be good to see it in France, maybe with a game in Barcelona.

 

[adamkungl]

As i've mentioned earlier, I want to expand the 4N - I'm aware it won't continue in it's current form but as a format it may see new life. Something will fill years 1 and 3 in the cycle.

I'd do away with the idea of "hosting" the tournament though, and turn it into a home/away series. Aside from being a better tournament, it cuts down on lengthy travel times and removes awkward neutral games like England v France played in Australia.

Example of Australia, NZ, England, France.

Round 1 is played throughout the NRL/SL season:
April:
Australia v NZ @ Sydney
England v France @ Coventry

May:
Australia v England @ Brisbane
NZ v France @ Christchurch
Australia v France @ Canberra
NZ v England @ Wellington

Round 2 is played post-season:

Oct:
NZ v Australia @ Auckland
France v England @ Avignon

Nov:
England v NZ @ Liverpool
France v Australia @ Paris
England v Australia @ London
France v NZ @ Perpignan

Final @ Manchester


The flaw of course, is that Australia would have to do something positive for the international game for once and play 3 mid-season tests as well as Origin. So it's likely to remain a fantasy of mine...

 

[RoosTah]

Be good to see it in France, maybe with a game in Barcelona.

Put a WC in France for sure, but just forget about the 4N... it's just silly. In the interim years perhaps we could have the Kangaroos play three test tours and when they do they can play a warm up in France and Ireland or something.

 

[adamkungl]

I really hate the 4N as a concept to be frank... it feels like a stripped down WC that undermines the prestige of the WC itself.

This is a strange view. Do you think there should be no tournaments at all between each world cup?

 

[RoosTah]

This is a strange view. Do you think there should be no tournaments at all between each world cup?

No, as I said in my posts above I think we should focus on quality elite internationals against the top tier and that the fans from the countries represented should have the opportunity to see them.

The 4N is a Frankenstein tournament; it's effectively a World Cup pool structure with a final tacked on at the end which ultimately just seems stupid given how short it is. What's more, I don't see the value in seeing all 3 top tier teams put a tonne of points on Scotland, and not even play a bloody game in Scotland for the benefit of the game there.

The World Cup has prestige and so people will turn up to watch teams from outside of their country play, but as Saturday showed it's embarrassing playing an Aus v NZ in some dreary northern stadium in front of a small crowd when you know they'd have filled any number of stadiums in Australia and NZ.

The game needs to focus on quality and develop the emerging nations through their own tournaments around world cups.

I would much rather just watch a 3 test series against the Kiwis or England in a home and away structure with maybe a warm up game against an emerging nation.

 

[RoosTah]

I'll put it another way: imagine if we played Origin as a-tristate series with victoria in the same way, with the last game as the "final". Would you support that? Would that make any sense whatsoever?

 

[adamkungl]

I agree with some of your criticisms about the structure of it (which I've adressed in my re-tooling of it above) but find the comparison to the WC odd.

 

[Burns]

You both have the same avatars - it's really confusing haha.

 

[adamkungl]

I'll put it another way: imagine if we played Origin as a-tristate series with victoria in the same way, with the last game as the "final". Would you support that? Would that make any sense whatsoever?

Structurally i'd have no problem with it, in reality no because Victoria doesn't have any players to represent it and Origin exists in a unique place in the sporting landscape that shouldn't be changed. Scotland too have a lot of issues about their eligibility for such a tournament - but the tournament itself I have no major issue with, though it isn't perfect.

Why have a 4th nation?
1) it makes for a nicer tournament - every team gets a game every week unlike a tri-nations series.
2 and more importantly) it gives nations outside the top 3 something to aspire to and a valuable chance to play at a higher level

Why have a final?
Because finals bring crowds and prestige in Australian sport and Australia has steered much of Rugby League's direction for decades.

I think there's room for both tournaments and tour series' anyway.

years
1 4Ns
2 continental tournament
3 tour series
4 WC

 

[RoosTah]

I agree with some of your criticisms about the structure of it (which I've adressed in my re-tooling of it above) but find the comparison to the WC odd.

How is it odd? The 4N is played entirely in one "host" country, like a WC, has a 3 match round robin like a World Cup, has a qualifying process for a developing nation like a World Cup and then has a kockout deciding match after the round robin! The only difference is a World Cup has 4 pools whilst this is all jammed together in one. As I said, it's a Frankenstein concept that in effect can arbitrarily crown a victor based purely on luck (Kangaroos have won all 3 tests this year to the kiwis, but could still lose the tournament in the "final").

If we were going to do a tournament concept then make it a TriNations where the Kangaroos play a 3 test against BOTH England and NZ in a home and away structure and then crown the champion based on the league table like they used to do in the union trinations. Concurrent to that, I'd have both a European and Pacific cup as well, so there'd be elite and developing internationals in both hemispheres

 

[RoosTah]

Structurally i'd have no problem with it, in reality no because Victoria doesn't have any players to represent it and Origin exists in a unique place in the sporting landscape that shouldn't be changed. Scotland too have a lot of issues about their eligibility for such a tournament - but the tournament itself I have no major issue with, though it isn't perfect.

Why have a 4th nation?
1) it makes for a nicer tournament - every team gets a game every week unlike a tri-nations series.
2 and more importantly) it gives nations outside the top 3 something to aspire to and a valuable chance to play at a higher level

Mate, I hear what you're saying but THAT's the whole point of the WC!!

Why have a final?
Because finals bring crowds and prestige in Australian sport and Australia has steered much of Rugby League's direction for decades.

I just think it's an utterly ridiculous way to decide a tournament that short... if you're large enough to have a semi final AT LEAST, then go nuts and have the knockout decider aspect, but it's nothing short of arbitrary and moronic having a final when you're playing in a format like the 4N.

Make it a proper series FFS and give us some elite footy so people give a stuff!

This is why internationals are so behind Origin in my view; because we treat it as such a joke that a concept like this 4N crap has legs.

I can't tell you have happy I am that it's finally going to f**king die after this year

 

[adamkungl]

lol how is winning a final either arbitrary or based purely on luck?

As for your other problems I agree with a good chunk of them. Hosting can and should change to home/away and the tournament should expand to 2 rounds to take in mid-season tests. Basically i'd like to see us copy the Rugby Championship in a lot of ways. But i'd keep the final and the 4th nation*.

* I'd also change the qualification method. The 4 nations would be the previous WC semi-finalists and hold the position until the next World Cup. This would give the 4th nation (assuming that the other 3 are obvious) far more beneficial development and profits.

 

[RoosTah]

lol how is winning a final either arbitrary or based purely on luck?

As for your other problems I agree with a good chunk of them. Hosting can and should change to home/away and the tournament should expand to 2 rounds to take in mid-season tests. Basically i'd like to see us copy the Rugby Championship in a lot of ways. But i'd keep the final.

We'all have to agree to disagree on the final I think. I just think it undermines the credibility of the competition given you can end up with fluke results despite one team completely dominating the round robin.
On the union version - imagine if the All Blacks just happened to lose a "final" game despite winning their other 6 matches home and away and winning all of them by 20+ points (which they did this year).

Sure, you could argue that whoever beat them in the final still had to do it, but given how short the competition is and how few teams there are, no one would really consider that team "worthy" given that all the other side limped through the comp.

That's why it just makes it a joke having a final with this kind of format.