Southern Orcas (NZ2)

[Colk]

If you want a fair system you need a salary cap. Of course the salary cap has been so badly subverted at this point that it's borderline meaningless, but the point still stands.

The hyper focus on talent pools in the PI's, and NZ to a lesser extent, over the past 20ish years is missing the forest for the trees and badly hurting the game on home soil as well.

In NSW and Qld alone more talent with NRL potential is missed or dropped in a year because of lack of spots in the system than the PI's will produce in five... That's without even getting into the 'affiliated states' which are huge markets where we do basically no junior development.

A salary cap is only one pillar of a fair system. You need another, particularly, as the current system is hardly transparent (biggest problem) and is increasingly nebulous considering the applications of third party payments (additional problem)

You are right. Junior development has been very poor both in the development of Pacific regions and at home. I would state that is because NRL clubs have too much control in such development but people can come to different conclusions on that front.

 

[The Great Dane]

2nd tier will never get 10k. NRL wont allow a product to be in direct opposition to the NRL

No most of the Sydney clubs are afraid of a product in direct competition to the NRL.

The Queensland clubs have no issue with it, Melbourne's never had a local reserve side, the Raiders preference was to affiliate with independent clubs until V'Landy paid them to run their own reserves, Newcastle partner with Ipswich, are we starting to see the pattern yet...

It's as things have always been in RL, a handful of shitbox suburban clubs in Sydney are holding everybody else back.

The demise of the Qld clubs since the end if NYC has been a direct result of their multiple feeder arrangements ie Qld Cup

So I wouldn't boast that it works

Horse shit. Bad roster management has been 'the demise' of the Qld clubs since the end of the NYC. They produce the talent just fine, they just struggle to hold onto the best of it for a multitude of reasons.

People like you are such a cancer on this sport.

 

[The Great Dane]

You are right. Junior development has been very poor both in the development of Pacific regions and at home. I would state that is because NRL clubs have too much control in such development but people can come to different conclusions on that front.

That is completely the problem.

It'll never change though, to many people like siv here whom would happily murder the sport if they thought it'd benefit their club.

 

[siv]

So yo

No most of the Sydney clubs are afraid of a product in direct competition to the NRL.

The Queensland clubs have no issue with it, Melbourne's never had a local reserve side, the Raiders preference was to affiliate with independent clubs until V'Landy paid them to run their own reserves, Newcastle partner with Ipswich, are we starting to see the pattern yet...

It's as things have always been in RL, a handful of shitbox suburban clubs in Sydney are holding everybody else back.

Horse shit. Bad roster management has been 'the demise' of the Qld clubs since the end of the NYC. They produce the talent just fine, they just struggle to hold onto the best of it for a multitude of reasons.

People like you are such a cancer on this sport.

So you revert to personal attacks after trying to shout down your opinion when someone has a opinion that does not support your view

Happy New Year to you too

 

[Matua]

This is where a NZ Cup steps in

Anyone know how much a NZRU provisional team costs to run?

Most provincial teams are run on the smell of an oily rag. They're effectively semi pro teams. The franchises is where the money is at, and where the majority of players get paid. Each NZRU contract includes a breakdown for country, franchise and province so some players don't receive anything directly from their province.

Over the past 10 years there's been a deliberate attempt to have all provinces live within their means and return a profit or break even. It seems to be working for the most part.

 

[The Great Dane]

So yo

So you revert to personal attacks after trying to shout down your opinion when someone has a opinion that does not support your view

Happy New Year to you too

Firstly I haven't tried to 'shout down' anything. It's literally and figuratively impossible to shout somebody down on a forum.

Secondly, I'm just calling it like it is.

I've been around this game for a long, long time, and you are spewing the same shit that a certain clique that has effectively run RL in this country since it's foundation spews, and look where it's got us, absolutely nowhere.

RL hasn't grown at all since WWII, it's still totally restricted to it's traditional regions, and it's receding in most of them, and that is totally the fault of people with your ideological leanings, whom push the same rhetoric that you are, and whom put their and their club's interests before those of the game as a whole.

In fact if anybody is 'shouted down' it's people like me, whom aside from a couple of very brief periods in history, have never really had a place in the debate, let alone the opportunity to shout somebody down.

 

[Colk]

That is completely the problem.

It'll never change though, to many people like siv here whom would happily murder the sport if they thought it'd benefit their club.

It is ridiculous really. A lot of the clubs; at least historically (although I would say it is still the case) haven’t had the money or expertise to run development programs properly. Look at Newcastle and Gold Coast for example. They are massive RL areas and until recently they were under the auspices of clubs that were in complete dire straits financially. To me, that is completely counterproductive. How many players haven’t been developed in those areas and in that timeframe because of that situation.

Surely the better option would be to have some body, seperate to the clubs financing and managing junior development and ergo, having consistent investment in these areas. It seems to work in every other sport (barring soccer). You would get a consistency in the approach which is just as important.

 

[siv]

Disagree, we shouldn't be lowering clubs that are doing junior development well because a few struggling at the moment

Lets take Newcastle - their juniors are strong. What however has happened is a legacy of the Bennett/ Tinkler period above that. Ie its the Front Office.

Better that we get someone with the smarts to have a look and adjust things to suit Newcastle

 

[Perth Red]

I

It is ridiculous really. A lot of the clubs; at least historically (although I would say it is still the case) haven’t had the money or expertise to run development programs properly. Look at Newcastle and Gold Coast for example. They are massive RL areas and until recently they were under the auspices of clubs that were in complete dire straits financially. To me, that is completely counterproductive. How many players haven’t been developed in those areas and in that timeframe because of that situation.

Surely the better option would be to have some body, seperate to the clubs financing and managing junior development and ergo, having consistent investment in these areas. It seems to work in every other sport (barring soccer). You would get a consistency in the approach which is just as important.

isn’t that the role of the state bodies? Biggest problem we have is the state bodies dont generate much revenue so are very much reliant on LC’s or nrl funding To pay for jnr and amateur RL.
It’s a historical mess for the game of LC, professional club, state and nrl all having fingers in the pie.
having said that what you seem to be advocating is how the British RL system is set up and you’d hardly say that is a raging success!

 

[Colk]

Disagree, we shouldn't be lowering clubs that are doing junior development well because a few struggling at the moment

Lets take Newcastle - their juniors are strong. What however has happened is a legacy of the Bennett/ Tinkler period above that. Ie its the Front Office.

Better that we get someone with the smarts to have a look and adjust things to suit Newcastle

You’re underlining my argument in a way.

There are two central problems. One is with the salary cap and the other is with junior development.

1.) Division of talent - there is talent being produced; however the top end talent is going to the same clubs over and over. A lot of that is dependent on a cause and effect: the cause being the actual location which then brings into effect clubs in certain locations achieving more sustained success than others.

For example if I’m the general manager/recruitment manager of the Cowboys, Raiders or the Warriors you come in knowing two things: the power of every purchasing dollar that I have in the salary cap is less relatively than what the recruitment manager of the Roosters or Souths have. Secondly you also have to spend a certain amount or be close to the cap, so I can’t say there is nothing here that I want to purchase and hold onto it for forthcoming seasons.

So, how would that play out: To try and attract a high profile player to move to those areas as opposed to staying/moving to Sydney or Brisbane is foolhardy. That’s frankly why you never see a big name player go to these clubs (unless they are lucky that a certain player is already from that area). So they end up spending money on leftovers from the market or throw big money at very young players, which can in turn be pretty harmful to their overall development. This imbalance is also made worse by TPA’s which generally are going to favour clubs in the city, as opposed to clubs in regional locations

2.) Production of talent - There isn’t enough talent being produced or at the very least the game isn’t maximising the amount of talent that there is. The point that you are advocating is more concerned about who is developing the talent rather than whether or not the said talent is actually being produced. Is it more important that the talent in the Hunter is actually produced for the benefit of the competition, or does it matter more that the Knights actually produce the talent? I would have thought that essentially cutting off junior talent in that region, because the Knights had been/ or are poorly administered (btw the Knights had been a poorly resourced club for most of their existence so it is at least equally to do with inadequate resources) is perhaps self defeating?

 

[Colk]

Also the Knights juniors weren’t strong and hadn’t been strong for quite a long time because they didn’t have the resources to compete. This is the reason why Tinkler got involved in the first place.

 

[Colk]

I

isn’t that the role of the state bodies? Biggest problem we have is the state bodies dont generate much revenue so are very much reliant on LC’s or nrl funding To pay for jnr and amateur RL.
It’s a historical mess for the game of LC, professional club, state and nrl all having fingers in the pie.
having said that what you seem to be advocating is how the British RL system is set up and you’d hardly say that is a raging success!

I’m suggesting that you would clear out the multiple bodies and have just one. I think clubs should definitely be out of the picture.

On the subject of British RL, I would have to defer to your judgement; however, may I ask you one question - Are the problems with Rugby League in Britain, including obviously junior development, as much a reflection of the standing/popularity of the game over there, as to anything else?

For example, if I were a young rugby player over there and I had the opportunity to pursue a career in either; unless you had a strong inclination to play one or the other, wouldn’t you pursue a career in union. You would have greater opportunities and earning potential in Union then you would in League

 

[Pippen94]

I’m suggesting that you would clear out the multiple bodies and have just one. I think clubs should definitely be out of the picture.

On the subject of British RL, I would have to defer to your judgement; however, may I ask you one question - Are the problems with Rugby League in Britain, including obviously junior development, as much a reflection of the standing/popularity of the game over there, as to anything else?

For example, if I were a young rugby player over there and I had the opportunity to pursue a career in either; unless you had a strong inclination to play one or the other, wouldn’t you pursue a career in union. You would have greater opportunities and earning potential in Union then you would in League

Poorly Red has no f'n idea what's happening outside of Perth (he embellishes what goes on there too) & you ask him about the UK?! Ask Google or maybe don't bother which would even be better..

 

[TGG]

Geographically only manly makes sense as the roosters will never relocate to the central coast due to their wealthy backer and the new stadium ditto the sharks with the redevelopment of shark park.

Wouldn’t be accepted by the people of the Central Coast though

 

[cumbrian Mackem]

Wouldn’t be accepted by the people of the Central Coast though

That’s entirely their choice but Then they don’t get a NRL team representing the region.

Either way it’s a moot point as it’s never going to happen.

 

[Colk]

Wouldn’t be accepted by the people of the Central Coast though

Perhaps. I don’t really see the need for a Central Coast team in any case - it’s a bit like Tasmania for fumbleball. The area is not massive and it is RL dominant. The only way a team should be considered would be through a relocation.

We should be putting in sides which have a greater upside, both strategically and commercially.

 

[TGG]

Perhaps. I don’t really see the need for a Central Coast team in any case - it’s a bit like Tasmania for fumbleball. The area is not massive and it is RL dominant. The only way a team should be considered would be through a relocation.

We should be putting in sides which have a greater upside, both strategically and commercially.

Correct

 

[LimeRick]

I think the best option for a second NZ side, would be for a second Auckland side, but give them different geographic names.

Revert the Warriors to the Auckland Warriors, they'll retain the majority of the support in Auckland.

Make the second team the "New Zealand Whatevers". Base them in Auckland, give them six or so Auckland home games, and they'll gain a decent following, then give three games each to Christchurch and Wellington.

You'll get two derbies, a good Auckland v the rest rivalry, and Aucklanders will have to actively choose whether they identify more with their country or city.

Auckland has four times the population of any other city in NZ. The economy and sponsorship potential is all there. And it's easier for Christchurch and Wellington fans to support an "NZ" side than a "Southern" side.

 

[siv]

You’re underlining my argument in a way.

There are two central problems. One is with the salary cap and the other is with junior development.

1.) Division of talent - there is talent being produced; however the top end talent is going to the same clubs over and over. A lot of that is dependent on a cause and effect: the cause being the actual location which then brings into effect clubs in certain locations achieving more sustained success than others.

For example if I’m the general manager/recruitment manager of the Cowboys, Raiders or the Warriors you come in knowing two things: the power of every purchasing dollar that I have in the salary cap is less relatively than what the recruitment manager of the Roosters or Souths have. Secondly you also have to spend a certain amount or be close to the cap, so I can’t say there is nothing here that I want to purchase and hold onto it for forthcoming seasons.

So, how would that play out: To try and attract a high profile player to move to those areas as opposed to staying/moving to Sydney or Brisbane is foolhardy. That’s frankly why you never see a big name player go to these clubs (unless they are lucky that a certain player is already from that area). So they end up spending money on leftovers from the market or throw big money at very young players, which can in turn be pretty harmful to their overall development. This imbalance is also made worse by TPA’s which generally are going to favour clubs in the city, as opposed to clubs in regional locations

2.) Production of talent - There isn’t enough talent being produced or at the very least the game isn’t maximising the amount of talent that there is. The point that you are advocating is more concerned about who is developing the talent rather than whether or not the said talent is actually being produced. Is it more important that the talent in the Hunter is actually produced for the benefit of the competition, or does it matter more that the Knights actually produce the talent? I would have thought that essentially cutting off junior talent in that region, because the Knights had been/ or are poorly administered (btw the Knights had been a poorly resourced club for most of their existence so it is at least equally to do with inadequate resources) is perhaps self defeating?

One other issue is the gap is widening between a NRL club who operates on 25 mil and the Tier 2 club operating on around $500k to $800k

Then in within a club district or regional areas you have strong Leagues clubs. Each club is effected differently, and each LC operates differently depending on the board in charge. But in general these guys pump as a group around $1 to 2 mil into every junior system. And all run by volunteers

Try and centralise this instantly removes this funding source and the volunteers change into employees. So a instant wage bill hits

What you get is what the Roosters are doing on the CC. They pay for all job roles, imports are big dollars while local kids who have better skills are paid peanuts, due to NSWRL transfer rules. They bought out Woy Woy LC then sold it off. There is no sense of community in what they have done.

 

[Colk]

The League Club system is an anachronism, it really is. No other sport works on this model because it simply doesn’t work; particularly from a professional standpoint. Obviously it is fine for a local club in say Newcastle, Canberra or Western Sydney ( you need volunteers and a connection to the community etc) but once you are talking about pathways to the NRL, the clubs should have nothing to do with it.

If you want a system that works, it’s probably best to follow the AFL or some other sport, wherein the professional clubs are totally seperate to the production of players. The whole point of this way is to eliminate cost discrepancies - for example a better resourced club is putting money into junior development whereas another club who can’t afford it is not, which then affects development of professional players in what might be an important region; as well as improving overall development by producing a consistency around coaching and standards.

Take Penrith for example. Obviously their junior development is very good; however, what benefit does the game have by having this competitive dynamic, wherein the Penrith and surrounding areas have great systems in place, whilst other areas, including those in affiliated states don’t

Wouldn’t it be better to have the standards, practices and funding implemented across the country for the benefit of the root and branch of the game rather than for the benefit of just one club and one enclave of Western Sydney. If you have that across the country, then you might have more teams like Penrith, whilst boosting participation numbers across the board.