State Cup

[Jeffles]

The idea being mooted is basically for the Premier League to be replaced by a "State Cup". as the name suggests, this would be the pinnacle of State Rugby League (like the Queensland Cup). NRL clubs would not enter teams under their own banner but rather through relationships with other clubs.

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Why I do not think it is a good idea?

* Since at least 2000, NRL clubs have had a chance to use feeder agreements with other clubs for their Reserve team. The Warriors used Newtown. St Mary's have a JOINT VENTURE with Penrith. That's it. It's not like it cannot happen now. You don't need a new competition to do this. The "State Cup" is an excuse to accelerate the inflation of relevance of the big non-PL clubs.

* Expectations of Queensland Cup style enthusiasm for the competition are not well founded. The nucleus of Qld Cup sides are clubs with a long tradition of top grade RL. Before the Broncos, many of the Qld Cup teams were THE TOP GRADE TEAMS for Qld, either in their present incarnation or before various mergers.

The Qld Cup, VFL (formerly VFA), SANFL and WAFL all have an organic history stretching back generations. PL has this as well, boosted by the presence of Newtown, Norths, Balmain and Wests. This is why all these comps are and would be well received by the general public.

An artifical "State Cup" competition would lose a lot of this history and goodwill because of the lack of history, tradition and tribalism. The public won't jump on the bandwagon because it is the new state comp. They need something to appeal to them. What is it?

* TV. There is less TV appeal for this competition than there is for PL. The general population care more about Newtown v Balmain than about Windsor v Wentworthville.

I bet as soon as a State Cup gets off the ground that TV coverage is sought. It would be better to seek TV for PL now with the current clubs because the comp represents the old NSWRL, which has a lot of support across the state. I suspect that TV is not being sought for PL because its days are numbered, not because it is not a good idea.

Have NRL clubs been adequately sounded out with respet to televising PL. The exposure would add thousands to the value of jersey and ground sponsorships. Not big bucks but certainly significant.

I can see a PL match outrating Club Rah Rah on a Saturday afternoon but it would be hard to imagine more people tuning in to Sydney Bulls v The Entrance than Randwick v Eastwood.

* Personal. As a supporter of a small time club, I recognise the danger of a State Cup. Newtown would lose a lot of money if they were not playing the clubs they play now. We've gained so much support out of playing the teams we used to. It may go if we revert to playing the Hawks and the Cabramatta for first grade (no offence to those clubs).

* What's wrong with the current system? The current system has served well for around 15 years. In the aftermath of Superleague, it is even better. A growing group of fans are turning to PL to rekindle the fond memories of tribalism and suburban Rugby League. It will take a long time before a State Cup can do that.

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What do you think?

 

[Henson Park Hornets]

I have to agree with your points Jeffles. The PL is running OK, it could be better if the NSWRL got off it's hands and got a game of the week on the TV. I believe that once there were standalone games involving Norths/Newtown/Balmain/Wests/Canberra etc that the interest would increase dramaically. As you say above the trialism that the media love so much is slowly creeping back into the mind of RL fans.
I truley believe that Newtown is the way forward in the PL and I think that if Norths do not get back into the NRL as the CCBears, then they will be really struggling for support as they don't seem to be getting involved within the NS community.

 

[horrie's heroes]

there's good and bad in both proposals. as has been said, the traditional derbies in the current premier league setup are a plus. it is a must to have the 7 traditional pre 1930's clubs standalone in any state cup competition to have some sort of tradition inherent.

you could throw canterbury, manly and parramatta into the mix as well, however, canterbury have a strong progressive jim beam cup side in their midst called the sydney bulls, and i can see the possibility of a joint venture there. bankstown bulls anyone? parramatta have a heap of successful local junior clubs with a fir but of tradition or history so theres another chance of a joint venture or possibly multiple standalone clubs. everybody loves to hate manly, and again either include them on their own or a joint venture with one their successful a grade sides.

the 1967 expansion clubs i don't see as having as much rivalry and tradition, i don't want to leave them out, but you'd prefer joint ventures there. penrith-st mary's is already working fine. dunno who to pair the sharks up with though, i don't know enough about there junior league and whether any of their clubs are strong enough.

i'd like to see, for example, some of the stronger clubs from the newcastle/illawarra/canberra/central coast comps have a go at this state league thing at the expense of their nrl counterparts. after all, the knights and the raiders don't really have a traditional rivalry with many of the sydney clubs. the obvious clubs that spring to mind here are quenbeyan blues/wests newcastle/thirroul/entrance. or maybe the steelers should make a comeback?

to have any chance of succeeding in such a comp a club would have to be supported by a leagues club or be in a joint venture with an nrl club so there's really not gonna be that many country/suburban clubs that could possibly pull this off in standalone mode. The only big leagues clubs I can think of in the country are in Tamworth, Wagga and Bathurst and they seem the logical places for clubs. But who would go into a joint venture with them? The existing JBC clubs who don't really fit into any of these equations with the most chance of standing alone are Ryde-Eastwood and WIndsor and i'd like to see them given a chance as well.

In summary, the logical teams for inclusion:
Newtown
Balmain
Norths
Souths
Roosters
Wests
St George (standalone or as STG-ILL)
Canterbury or Bankstown Bulls
Parramatta or Cabramatta and/or Wentworthville (either JV or standalone)
Manly or JV with A-grade side
Cronulla or ?
Penrith-St Mary's JV
Quenbeyan Blues/West Belconnen JV with Raiders (CRL Monaro)
Newcastle Wests JV with Knights (CRL Newcastle)
Illawarra Steelers or Illawarra Club Side (if no STG-ILL) (CRL Illawarra)
Entrance Tigers JV with CC Bears (CRL Central Coast)
Ryde Eastwood (relationship with Wests Tigers)
Windsor (relationship with Penrith)
Bathurst-representing CRL Western Division (relationship with Penrith)
West Tamworth-representing CRL Northern Div (rel. with Knights)
Wagga-representing CRL Riverina (rel. with Raiders)
Maybe a club on the North Coast.. Coffs?
and South Coast/Southern Highlands... Narellan?

All up over 20 clubs... probably would only work over 2 Divisions, but they're all sensible/genuine possibilities. Anyway, why not 2 Divisions?

 

[Jeffles]

Bankstown Bulls is the name of the Sydney Bulls junior side. The Bulldogs, to my knowledge, ended any link they had with Sydney Bulls a few years ago.

A lot of bush clubs are on shaky financial footing. It would be hard for them to cope with travel and player expenses.

 

[mono_mal]

Whilst the Bulls no longer have an official link with the Bulldogs the return of the Bulls reserve grade team to the Canterbury competition as well as the large number of junior teams now competing in the comp under the Bankstown Bull banner, who are quite strong, would indicate that relationships may becoming closer again.
Also the recent sponsorship deal arranged for the Dogs by the Bulls would have had to strengthen ties once more.
And whilst a number of bush clubs are currently on shaky financial footing this would not prevent the strong Illawarra, Newcastle, Central Coast and Canberra clubs competing.
These clubs spend more on player salaries than most Jim Beam Clubs and this has been a problem in the past though with the larger State Cup salary cup it would be a motivator for these clubs to test themselves.

 

[Jeffles]

"And whilst a number of bush clubs are currently on shaky financial footing this would not prevent the strong Illawarra, Newcastle, Central Coast and Canberra clubs competing."

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I'd rather see these clubs strengthen local JBC as a support to PL, which already has a good presence across the major centres of NSW as well as a good traditional make up of clubs.

I am also concerned for local competitions if the bigger clubs jump ship. The Wollongong comp and Newcastle comp are largely sensational on their own. They need to preserve them too. It is a difficult balancing act.

 

[mono_mal]

The problem though with these clubs joining the Jim Beam Cup, as I already mentioned, is that these clubs are currently over spending the Jim Beam Cup salary cap.
In my opinion I think the NSWRL will introduce the State Cup in years to come to utilise the large finances of these clubs and replace the NRL teams currently using PL as 'reserves' who may face financial diffuculties in coming years with the pokie tax's implementation.
In saying this though I feel NRL teams will not drop their PL sides overnight and it will take a number of years.
The NSWRL really do have a difficult balancing act to perform though I'm hoping in coming years to see a State Cup system with a number of tiers encompassing NSW's strongest league clubs in which promotion and relegation amongst the tiers is possible.
Clubs then being able to join a level that is suitable for themselves at the time.

 

[mono_mal]

Double post.

 

[Jeffles]

Good comments MM.

The pokie tax will also affect many of the bigger Leagues clubs outside NRL. And if there is a lack of RL representation on the board, they will cut football at these clubs too (Guildford Owls syndrome). You are less likely to have footy reps on a Leagues club board if you have few fans (Guildford Owls syndrome again). We will have to wait and see the full effects of the tax.

Meanwhile MM, how's the crusade at the Owls going to get them back in JBC. I really miss them being there.

 

[Red Bear]

That original idea sucks, premier league is pretty good the way it is, improvements could be made but the current clubs are good.

 

[mono_mal]

Jeffles your comment regarding the tax affecting the non NRL clubs is true although a number of these clubs (St Marys, Cabramatta,Wentworthville etc.) have profits as high as NRL clubs and are keen to increase rugby league finances if they are to be represented in a higher level football competiton.
The RL representation on boards is also an issue although the clubs remaining in Jim Beam Cup at the moment seem to be fairly RL orientated and clubs such as Wenty and Ryde Eastwood with few fans have extrememly football orientated boards.

And regarding Guildford returning to the Jim Beam Cup lets just say its not likely to happen for a number of years if so at all.
The club will remain though in the Parra Cup, the highest A-Grade comp in the Parra district, as the club constitution states they must do so otherwise cease to operate.
For Guildford to return there has to be a shake up on the board or the Junior League Committee must gain more power within the club.
Im currently on the Junior League Committee and there are plans for the Juniors to incorporate the Senior grades, A-Grade and Reserves, in coming years so perhaps when these changes happen we might see talk of a return to the Jim Beam Cup commence.

 

[Jeffles]

Great to see you involved at grass roots. Is it hard to get on the board. While there are a lot of members, is there a high turnout at elections. Some clubs have thousands of members yet only a few hundred vote. Is there a chance of getting a voting bloc?

 

[mono_mal]

Getting on the board is extemely difficult.
The club offers voting rights and associate memberships.
The problem being the associate non voting memberships are extremely cheap in comparsion with the voting rights membership , $11 for 5 years compared to $44 for 5 years, and therefore the majority of the clubs members have no voting rights.
The current board members have all gained the backing and are well known to the limited number of voters, in the majority retired senior citizens, and its unlikely the make up will change drastically in coming years.

 

[mc5]

It appears that the idea of a national U20s comp is subsiding given that the non Sydney clubs are only lukewarm on the idea with exception of the Broncos. NQ, Warriors, Storm will not field sides.

However that is not likely to save the premier league given that many of the Sydney have advised the NSWRL they will not be fielding a side next year. Jersey Flegg will continue as a U20 - (maybe U21) comp with a possible dispensation for some over age players. You need to keep in mind that most players now in the Premier league are not much older than 20/21 therefore there is not a great distintion from Flegg. Otherwise teams will link with Jim Bean Cup sides for excess players

 

[Jeffles]

mc5,

your second paragraph is a rumour that never dies down. But I hope that NRL clubs see sense.

There is more potential in PL now than in a future comp where Sydney Bulls represent the Bulldogs, Cabramatta represents Parra, etc, etc. Look at the Qld Cup, SANFL and the VFL. The problem with the NSW clubs is that they view PL as a liability. There is potential in PL in its current form. Promote it as an old NSW comp. Traditional home grounds, traditional jersies, ADVERTISING etc. It works for Newtown (the only club that tries). It would definitely work for bigger clubs. There are enough fans for it to work.

 

[mc5]

Jeffles - my understanding is that most of the Sydney based NRL clubs have advised the NSWRL they will not be fielding a Premier league side - Parramatta, Canterbury, Penrith and St George for starters. Therefore there will be no choice other than to disband PL. The fact there is not a lot of talk about this issue is probably indicative of how the mainstream media views the PL.

I think it works for Newtown because you don't have a NRL side. Therefore it is the only way you get to see the best Jets side play - and more power to the Blue Bags for it.

 

[Jeffles]

I don't think disbanding PL is the way to go. While I accept that outsourcing is the way of the future, I think traditional NSW based NRL clubs are silly not to realise the value of having their seconds play in a NSW comp.

Disbanding of PL would not be a good thing to do either. It isn't organic. RL in NSW has had too many competition shake ups of late. It's no wqay to build a following.

 

[Man_of_Steel_1982]

I think the best way to solve all of RL's problems is to do what should of been done in the first place.

Instead of the Sydney Comp growing and adding teams from out of town and interstate, a new NRL should of been formed. Basically, a team in every major city (2 in Sydney). Then the Sydney Comp could carry on with it's historical clubs, grounds and traditions while the NRL would be a truely national, fancy wow wee set up.

It could still be done now. When there are no NRL games on a Saturday arvo, we could all go and watch (as well as see on the ABC) a comp with these teams:

1. Newtown Jets
2. North Sydney Bears
3. South Sydney Rabbitohs
4. Western Suburbs Magpies
5. Eastern Suburbs Roosters
6. Balmain Tigers
7. St George Dragons
8. Canterbury Bankstown Bulldogs
9. Cronulla Sutherland Sharks
10. Parramatta Eels
11. Penrith Panthers
12. Manly Warringah Sea Eagles

The old top 5 format. Finals at the SFS. All play at traditional suburban home grounds. The history and identity of these clubs could remain forever.

An NRL, where News Ltd has a bigger role and gives $$$ to all the teams could be as follows:

1. Sydney (new team representing the eastern side of the greater Metro area at Aussie Stad).
2. West Sydney (new team...)
3. Illawarra Steelers
4. Canberra Raiders
5. Newcastle Knights
6. Brisbane Broncos
7. Central Coast
8. Gold Coast Dolphins
9. North Queensland Cowboys
10. Melbourne Storm
11. Adelaide Rams
12. Perth Reds
13. Auckland
14. Wellington

All of these teams could draw on players from local leagues (except obviously Melbourne, Adelaide and to some extent Perth).

Anyway... I cant do this concept justice on here... I'll be back with a link to a site that outlines the proposal.

 

[The Dawson Twins Minus 1]

Jeeze, I can see Politis, Fitzgerald and such just rushing this proposal....








...not!

Regards,
TDT-1

 

[Jeffles]

Maybe it's the DA talking but I think Politis and Fitzgerald would love it.

Dennis: Nick, you take East of Homebush and I'll take West of Homebush

Nick: Deal.

It's what they've always wanted - the collapse of everyone around them.