Sullivan & Hunt halves: a potentially expansive attack

[Victoire]

I liked what I saw from Sullivan in his limited time last week. He was good. I think the the forced absence of Amone could be a blessing in disguise for our attack, if executed correctly.

With Amone in the team, Griffin, to my estimation, tried to mimic the Penrith style of play:
Amone being the Luai style five-eighth - parked almost exclusively on one side of the field and creating chances only when called on to do so.
Hunt being the Cleary style halfback - controlling basically everything else to do with the attack, including the organising and the kicking.

The main problem of course is that we weren't coached as well as Penrith are and are lacking in too many other areas to succesfully replicate their results. And the lame imitation will never be good enough to beat the real thing, so what's the point?

However, with Sullivan in the team we can essentially have two halfbacks. This can revamp the entire style, and rather than be a chinese rip-off of Penrith, we can move our attack to be more like the Roosters (who have a similar halves combo in Keary and Walker). The Roosters attack was very clunky to start season 2022, and their record reflected that, but they turned the corner mid-season when they swapped the 6 & 7 jerseys- giving Walker more responsibility in organising and kicking, and freeing Keary up a bit. They played a much more expansive attack, sending the ball wide quickly to Manu and Tedesco, and running the ball more rather than just setting up for attacking kick. Joey Manu was also more involved as almost a second fullback. To end the season they won 8 of their last 9 games.

Obviously we're a long way from the Roosters in a stack of areas on-field (especially in coaching!) and before we even get close to winning games we need to fix that soft defence... but if we can activate Sullivan as a second halfback and get him to take some responsibility, it can only help make Ben Hunt more dangerous and the rest of the team more dangerous as well. Suli, Sua and Lomax are (on their day) genuine strike weapons on the edge and we should be exploring an expansive style to play to that strength. I also think Lomax could, with proper coaching and confidence, grow into a second fullback - he has played at 1 briefly before. I wish we still had Ramsay at fullback, but Sloan has speed and talent and an opportunity now

Just my meagre 2 cents but yeah, I think we have the nucleus of something good there. Hopefully we can get a coach to help it flourish

 

[Slippery Morris]

Totally agree with you Victoire. Saints have potential to be a great attacking team but the coaching is the issue. I still think the future is Hunt at 9 and Amone (if he returns) and Sullivan in the halves with Sloan/Ramsey at FB. That has attacking flair written all over it. Sloan will come good, just give him time.

 

[Harry Bath]

Totally agree with you Victoire. Saints have potential to be a great attacking team but the coaching is the issue. I still think the future is Hunt at 9 and Amone (if he returns) and Sullivan in the halves with Sloan/Ramsey at FB. That has attacking flair written all over it. Sloan will come good, just give him time.

We all Know Griffin will have Mbye or Bird at 5/8th, with the "looser" of that position becoming the fullback.
Does not matter what the fans want Griffin is an old conservative coach who rarely allows the unexperienced any lee way.

 

[Yow]

I liked what I saw from Sullivan in his limited time last week. He was good. I think the the forced absence of Amone could be a blessing in disguise for our attack, if executed correctly.

With Amone in the team, Griffin, to my estimation, tried to mimic the Penrith style of play:
Amone being the Luai style five-eighth - parked almost exclusively on one side of the field and creating chances only when called on to do so.
Hunt being the Cleary style halfback - controlling basically everything else to do with the attack, including the organising and the kicking.

The main problem of course is that we weren't coached as well as Penrith are and are lacking in too many other areas to succesfully replicate their results. And the lame imitation will never be good enough to beat the real thing, so what's the point?

However, with Sullivan in the team we can essentially have two halfbacks. This can revamp the entire style, and rather than be a chinese rip-off of Penrith, we can move our attack to be more like the Roosters (who have a similar halves combo in Keary and Walker). The Roosters attack was very clunky to start season 2022, and their record reflected that, but they turned the corner mid-season when they swapped the 6 & 7 jerseys- giving Walker more responsibility in organising and kicking, and freeing Keary up a bit. They played a much more expansive attack, sending the ball wide quickly to Manu and Tedesco, and running the ball more rather than just setting up for attacking kick. Joey Manu was also more involved as almost a second fullback. To end the season they won 8 of their last 9 games.

Obviously we're a long way from the Roosters in a stack of areas on-field (especially in coaching!) and before we even get close to winning games we need to fix that soft defence... but if we can activate Sullivan as a second halfback and get him to take some responsibility, it can only help make Ben Hunt more dangerous and the rest of the team more dangerous as well. Suli, Sua and Lomax are (on their day) genuine strike weapons on the edge and we should be exploring an expansive style to play to that strength. I also think Lomax could, with proper coaching and confidence, grow into a second fullback - he has played at 1 briefly before. I wish we still had Ramsay at fullback, but Sloan has speed and talent and an opportunity now

Just my meagre 2 cents but yeah, I think we have the nucleus of something good there. Hopefully we can get a coach to help it flourish

Victoirie you say your 2 cents worth but a lot of value

 

[OneEyedDragon]

We all Know Griffin will have Mbye or Bird at 5/8th, with the "looser" of that position becoming the fullback.
Does not matter what the fans want Griffin is an old conservative coach who rarely allows the unexperienced any lee way.

Hook needs success or he is gone. He must know that himself. Mbye is solid, and at best a reasonable number 14, but is no longer a starting player. I am probably wrong, but Hook MUST know he needs to do things a bit differently from the last couple of years. If he doesn't have the cattle to implement his current plan, then he needs to devise a different plan that suits the players he has got.

 

[Parko1310]

Hook needs success or he is gone. He must know that himself. Mbye is solid, and at best a reasonable number 14, but is no longer a starting player. I am probably wrong, but Hook MUST know he needs to do things a bit differently from the last couple of years. If he doesn't have the cattle to implement his current plan, then he needs to devise a different plan that suits the players he has got.

If you're going off the charity shield, we were throwing quite a few offloads which I thought was positive, we looked way more dangerous with some second phase and Liddle's runs and deception from dummy half on the way back of it. But, the players seemed to be unaware that they needed to expect these offloads which suggests they either need to adjust to the new game plan or it was never part of the game plan. Let's just hope its an adjustment thing.

 

[Victoire]

Really positive signs in the Broncos game that the expansive attack I was hoping for might bear fruit. I think there is plenty to like about the team we've got right now, and with the right coach and a couple of key additions I've no doubt that we can be where the Broncos are this time next year. That is, progressing from also-rans into a serious football team, which the Broncos certainly are. We did well to hang with them so long, imo.

Despite my continued reservations about Jacob Liddle as a hooker solution, I think bringing him off the bench is a great choice and it's working. The bigger problem, however, is who to start with. Mbye is not the guy. His passing from DH is so bad that even Ben Hunt was berating him during the game, and his defence is nothing to write home about either. Bringing him back on late in the game provides no impact. If we had a defensive hooker type that can start the game and then also be a middle forward later (someone in the mould of Dean Young or Cam McInnes for example) the team would be much stronger for it. Maybe Muhleisen is that guy?

 

[brissiedragon]

Really positive signs in the Broncos game that the expansive attack I was hoping for might bear fruit. I think there is plenty to like about the team we've got right now, and with the right coach and a couple of key additions I've no doubt that we can be where the Broncos are this time next year. That is, progressing from also-rans into a serious football team, which the Broncos certainly are. We did well to hang with them so long, imo.

Despite my continued reservations about Jacob Liddle as a hooker solution, I think bringing him off the bench is a great choice and it's working. The bigger problem, however, is who to start with. Mbye is not the guy. His passing from DH is so bad that even Ben Hunt was berating him during the game, and his defence is nothing to write home about either. Bringing him back on late in the game provides no impact. If we had a defensive hooker type that can start the game and then also be a middle forward later (someone in the mould of Dean Young or Cam McInnes for example) the team would be much stronger for it. Maybe Muhleisen is that guy?

Right. Now convince Hook re Mbye, cos Hook cant or wont see what we are seeing.

 

[Wolfgang90]

Really positive signs in the Broncos game that the expansive attack I was hoping for might bear fruit. I think there is plenty to like about the team we've got right now, and with the right coach and a couple of key additions I've no doubt that we can be where the Broncos are this time next year. That is, progressing from also-rans into a serious football team, which the Broncos certainly are. We did well to hang with them so long, imo.

Despite my continued reservations about Jacob Liddle as a hooker solution, I think bringing him off the bench is a great choice and it's working. The bigger problem, however, is who to start with. Mbye is not the guy. His passing from DH is so bad that even Ben Hunt was berating him during the game, and his defence is nothing to write home about either. Bringing him back on late in the game provides no impact. If we had a defensive hooker type that can start the game and then also be a middle forward later (someone in the mould of Dean Young or Cam McInnes for example) the team would be much stronger for it. Maybe Muhleisen is that guy?

Very good points. Mbye would be suited for 18th man as he can cover a number of positions in case of emergency. I think we eventually need to start liddle to see his full potential. Hunt can always play hooker relief when needed, possibly have Amone on the bench? He can cover halves & has played at center, hooker. It's a good way to give him some first grade experience.

 

[Lovemedragons]

Totally agree with you Victoire. Saints have potential to be a great attacking team but the coaching is the issue. I still think the future is Hunt at 9 and Amone (if he returns) and Sullivan in the halves with Sloan/Ramsey at FB. That has attacking flair written all over it. Sloan will come good, just give him time.

If we are to take the step up needed to progress to a top 8 team we need to play Hunt like QLD play Hunt. He kills it for QLD virtually every time he plays for them.

He can start at 9 and then float (or take a break) when Liddle comes on. We need to use all the ammunition we have in our already light arsenal - we were well down the path of developing Amone into a very good 6, so now that we can play him, we should be playing him. Sullivan is a must, so he plays 7. He is going to be a wonderful combination with Sloan in the years to come. But Hunt to starting 9 has to happen, the time is right. I doubt it will happen, Griffin does not change his mind very easily, but an opportunity will be lost.

 

[Victoire]

If we are to take the step up needed to progress to a top 8 team we need to play Hunt like QLD play Hunt. He kills it for QLD virtually every time he plays for them.

It'd be nice, but we don't have the luxury of having Daly Cherry Evans and Cam Munster in the halves. We've got two still developing 21/20 year olds

Gold Coast reached the finals in 2021 (and almost won their first final v the Roosters), then the following year they banked on a talented young halves combo of Toby Sexton and AJ Brimson. Both of them older than Sullivan and Amone, but still inexperienced. The Titans tumbled way down the ladder in 22, finishing 13th. Now Brimson is out of the halves, Sexton's in Queensland Cup and they brought in an old head in Kieran Foran. It was a costly lesson

 

[SEAT 1A]

Bud had a cracker of a game. Other than injury, can't see Amone getting a go this year.

Mbye to start until Liddle is OK to go, but that's the way it is at the moment. It's a long year and from what Liddle's shown when he came on, it will be worth it.

 

[Wolfgang90]

Injuries will occur, Amone needs to be ready to step up when it happens. I hope he's taking the opportunity in reserve grade to improve his weaknesses, for me it's mainly his kicking game.

 

[SnowDragon]

Injuries will occur, Amone needs to be ready to step up when it happens. I hope he's taking the opportunity in reserve grade to improve his weaknesses, for me it's mainly his kicking game.

There was talk about Amone potentially becoming a 13 later in his career right?

and he is nimble, fast acceleration, good running game and passes well?

why not try him to replace Mbye?

its only his defence we need to monitor, but surely worth a crack and way better than our current option. Gives him game time before he slots in to replace Hunt at origin time too.

 

[Lovemedragons]

It'd be nice, but we don't have the luxury of having Daly Cherry Evans and Cam Munster in the halves. We've got two still developing 21/20 year olds

Gold Coast reached the finals in 2021 (and almost won their first final v the Roosters), then the following year they banked on a talented young halves combo of Toby Sexton and AJ Brimson. Both of them older than Sullivan and Amone, but still inexperienced. The Titans tumbled way down the ladder in 22, finishing 13th. Now Brimson is out of the halves, Sexton's in Queensland Cup and they brought in an old head in Kieran Foran. It was a costly lesson

That could be for any number of reasons, the Titans are an ongoing basket case.

I say plant the seeds, water them, be patient, support them by surrounding them with experience and reap the harvest in 24/25

 

[Lovemedragons]

There was talk about Amone potentially becoming a 13 later in his career right?

and he is nimble, fast acceleration, good running game and passes well?

why not try him to replace Mbye?

its only his defence we need to monitor, but surely worth a crack and way better than our current option. Gives him game time before he slots in to replace Hunt at origin time too.

Mbye's defence is nothing to write home about.

 

[Lovemedragons]

Bud had a cracker of a game. Other than injury, can't see Amone getting a go this year.

Mbye to start until Liddle is OK to go, but that's the way it is at the moment. It's a long year and from what Liddle's shown when he came on, it will be worth it.

I think we follow this plan we miss the 8

 

[justadragon]

Injuries will occur, Amone needs to be ready to step up when it happens. I hope he's taking the opportunity in reserve grade to improve his weaknesses, for me it's mainly his kicking game.

If you saw the plays in KOE cup he was our best player , but that was amongst a very ordinary team, defense was non existant. I called for the coaches head last week and after this weeks performance he should be punted immediately. As for Amone personally he can still go to jail or am I missing something, so where is his head at, and should we be training in the NRL atm with someone who might not be available for quite a long time al la De-belin, damned if you do and damned if you dont I suppose.

 

[71saintsimon]

If we are to take the step up needed to progress to a top 8 team we need to play Hunt like QLD play Hunt. He kills it for QLD virtually every time he plays for them.

He can start at 9 and then float (or take a break) when Liddle comes on. We need to use all the ammunition we have in our already light arsenal - we were well down the path of developing Amone into a very good 6, so now that we can play him, we should be playing him. Sullivan is a must, so he plays 7. He is going to be a wonderful combination with Sloan in the years to come. But Hunt to starting 9 has to happen, the time is right. I doubt it will happen, Griffin does not change his mind very easily, but an opportunity will be lost.

I’ve been saying for years to shift hunt to hooker and play amoune and Sullivan in half’s and let them blossom as a half’s pairing like what Penrith did with there 6 and 7 , sadly the current coach doesn’t have a vision for future his coaching for immediate success to prolong his career

 

[Adolf_Spritzer]

I’ve been saying for years to shift hunt to hooker and play amoune and Sullivan in half’s and let them blossom as a half’s pairing like what Penrith did with there 6 and 7 , sadly the current coach doesn’t have a vision for future his coaching for immediate success to prolong his career

It should be noted that Cleary was bought up to NRL speed with the experienced heads of Jimmy Maloney and Peter Wallace by his side. We tried with Amone and were let down big time (although we may still get lucky depending on court and whatnot) so to emulate what Penrith did we must pick and stick with Sullivan. Then maybe if the cards fall into place and the new coach puts Hunt to hooker, Sullivan can run the team and we'd have a somewhat settled spine to reintroduce Amone into