The Importance of a Top Line Coach

[BLM01]

That's easy.
Demetriou, Cleary (Clearly passed on us - in talks and he knocked back the position because we did not agree on the issue of control), Bellamy (was never going to leave Melbourne) McGuire, even Toovey .
I won't even underscore Hasler, Henry, Potter and others who are also better than Mary.
Whether you agree or not, all these guys are streets ahead of McGregor.
There has never been any urgency to upgrade the coaching function.
Even our assistant coaches have no coaching pedigree.
The principle is very simple.
As one of the premier clubs, we should hire the very best coach that we can.
McGregor has never fitted the bill.

OK I dont rate Mary either. Our assistants just given a job cause of their standing within. I agree. Terrible decision...but
Demetrious NFI..never coached 1st grade
So Cleary & Bellamy passed on us...we tried!
McGuire maybe..dont like his style ATM
Toovey, Hasler.....YES from me
Henry, Potter....are you sure about that!
OK you may get 3..You win

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

OK I dont rate Mary either. Our assistants just given a job cause of their standing within. I agree. Terrible decision...but
Demetrious NFI..never coached 1st grade
So Cleary & Bellamy passed on us...we tried!
McGuire maybe..dont like his style ATM
Toovey, Hasler.....YES from me
Henry, Potter....are you sure about that!
OK you may get 3..You win

I am not trying to win - believe me.
You're a passionate fan and so am I.
I just want the best for our team.
The fans deserve the best.
The management are so self engrossed that they forget what this once mighty club stands for in the context of this game.
The subjectivity around JD vs Mary revolves around CV, performance and who was the best candidate as a rookie coach replacement for Price.
JD was actually a standout and was overlooked.
Apples for apples - a standout.
We can discuss his aptitude another time but was McGregor the best available choice at the time of his appointment?
The answer is no.
That's what I am talking about.

 

[possm]

He did sign for minimum- that’s one of the things that makes it a good signing. If you think identifying potential first graders, signing them for minimum, then having them cement their spot and be well above average for their position in just 13 games takes no talent, and deserves no credit, then there’s just no evidence that will convince you.
I’d say JP has improved all his skills - he attacks kicks better, he gets more post contact metres and quicker play the balls, his positioning is better, he’s more aware of the sideline and finishes better.

He is a safe winger. He lacks the speed we need, I mean he could not score a length of the field try. However, he is currently doing a better job than any other winger in the Club. That in itself speaks lowely of our recruitment officials.

 

[RufusRex]

Ok .. lets look closer then:

Dufty - got a debut based on injury to Dugan round 20 of 2017. Dugan had already signed with the Sharks at that stage. so thats a no.

Nene - definate no simply because he wasnt let go for a better player. We still havent replaced him with a better player. He wasnt dumped due to ability on the field. Big no.

Rein - 2016 asked for a stupid contract and was told to get stuffed. McInnes signed with us in September. Rein wasnt offered a contract. You may be right on this one however my original post was more specific about recognising burgeoning talent from within the club and bringing them through. Its a maybe. The fact that we endured him for 130 odd games is pathetic.

Thommo - it is a maybe ..He was let go for established players though in Friz/JDB. There was contract and dollar talk ... Again i doubt it was around performance either more team balance but Mary may have been instrumental .. Another maybe.

Merrin - going back a bit in my memory .. Played in 2015 with us in a pack that contained. There is an arguement for him being let go in favour of Jack but lookign at our depth at the time in the pack it was hardly a good decision ... Matthews/Lui/Marketo ... It is a maybe.


The specific equivalents would be the obvious one Lomax for Aitken

His perseverence with dud favourites is a hallmark of his tenure.

 

[BennyV]

Did not say I back Mary..in fact many times I hold him to account, so your just interpreting that way for your own sake of having a shot.
Just not sold on McGuire as a good coach thats all or whether I'd be delighted to have him. My opinion. His attacking football is almost non existant. Yeh he is a disciplinarian and shouts a lot. He had a great roster in 2014 but got the job done with a boring style of bash and barge with big forwards and a great kicker. Game has altered slightly since then but you need to tell Mary that.

You've just proven you have lost the plot holding Millward as fully responsible for our roster as if Mary is in the dark and just deals with the cards he is dealt.
You know little..but Mary might be happy you interpret it that way as then he becomed devoid of any blame

Mary is responsible for his wants and needs within the roster. The question of how much players are offered, balancing the salary cap and identifying players to fill Mary’s needs is on Millward.

For example, Mary wants to keep Rein in the team, so Millward offers him a contract. Rein rejects the contract, wanting more. Millward doesn’t go any higher. Decision on how much to offer Rein is not on Mary, it’s Millward. So how can Mary be credited for picking McInnes over Rein?

Same argument applied for Thompson - Mary has Thommo and Sims on the books, plays Thommo at left edge. At contract time, Thommo is offered a contract (presumably on Mary’s recommendation, as he wants him in the team), and Millward (who manages the cap) dictates the value he can offer. Thommo refuses as he has a better offer at Manly. Then Mary puts Sims to the edge.

Most of the same is applied to every example you gave, so based on team/position selections (when all were available), timing of recruitment and so on, I can’t see anywhere that Mary has ‘flicked’ players for other options.

Also I apologise for accusing you of backing Mary, I misread your misguided defence of him as loyalty. No one should be subject to such vitriol.

 

[Glenn012]

Ok .. lets look closer then:

Dufty - got a debut based on injury to Dugan round 20 of 2017. Dugan had already signed with the Sharks at that stage. so thats a no.

Nene - definate no simply because he wasnt let go for a better player. We still havent replaced him with a better player. He wasnt dumped due to ability on the field. Big no.

Rein - 2016 asked for a stupid contract and was told to get stuffed. McInnes signed with us in September. Rein wasnt offered a contract. You may be right on this one however my original post was more specific about recognising burgeoning talent from within the club and bringing them through. Its a maybe. The fact that we endured him for 130 odd games is pathetic.

Thommo - it is a maybe ..He was let go for established players though in Friz/JDB. There was contract and dollar talk ... Again i doubt it was around performance either more team balance but Mary may have been instrumental .. Another maybe.

Merrin - going back a bit in my memory .. Played in 2015 with us in a pack that contained. There is an arguement for him being let go in favour of Jack but lookign at our depth at the time in the pack it was hardly a good decision ... Matthews/Lui/Marketo ... It is a maybe.


The specific equivalents would be the obvious one Lomax for Aitken

His perseverence with dud favourites is a hallmark of his tenure.

Disagree about Nene. Ravalawa has made some mistakes in the early rounds (none last week) but it's nice to have a big, fast winger who doesn't come to a near stop in his run just before he get to the opposition defense. One game soon he is going to run hard and not bend the line and get a quick play the ball like he has been doing consistently but burst straight through it. Pereira has been very consistent. If he were fast, he would be a great winger.

 

[blacksafake]

I'm driving the Rava bus. Get on board mate. I reckon by the end of the season he will be one of the best wingers in the comp. He's got a long way to go obviously, a very long way.
Watch this space.

I'm ok giving him some time but I do want to see improvement such as handling, anticipation, getting back on side etc.He has shown glimpses of breaking through so it's only a matter of time before he does.Then we'll see how quick he is or when he has to chase someone.I'm at the bus stop waiting at the moment

 

[BLM01]

I am not trying to win - believe me.
You're a passionate fan and so am I.
I just want the best for our team.
The fans deserve the best.
The management are so self engrossed that they forget what this once mighty club stands for in the context of this game.
The subjectivity around JD vs Mary revolves around CV, performance and who was the best candidate as a rookie coach replacement for Price.
JD was actually a standout and was overlooked.
Apples for apples - a standout.
We can discuss his aptitude another time but was McGregor the best available choice at the time of his appointment?
The answer is no.
That's what I am talking about.

Yeh I look at the now..not history.
Was JD available in 2014 when Mary took over?

 

[BLM01]

Mary is responsible for his wants and needs within the roster. The question of how much players are offered, balancing the salary cap and identifying players to fill Mary’s needs is on Millward.

For example, Mary wants to keep Rein in the team, so Millward offers him a contract. Rein rejects the contract, wanting more. Millward doesn’t go any higher. Decision on how much to offer Rein is not on Mary, it’s Millward. So how can Mary be credited for picking McInnes over Rein?

Same argument applied for Thompson - Mary has Thommo and Sims on the books, plays Thommo at left edge. At contract time, Thommo is offered a contract (presumably on Mary’s recommendation, as he wants him in the team), and Millward (who manages the cap) dictates the value he can offer. Thommo refuses as he has a better offer at Manly. Then Mary puts Sims to the edge.

Most of the same is applied to every example you gave, so based on team/position selections (when all were available), timing of recruitment and so on, I can’t see anywhere that Mary has ‘flicked’ players for other options.

Also I apologise for accusing you of backing Mary, I misread your misguided defence of him as loyalty. No one should be subject to such vitriol.

I dont defend. I just want some surety about the replacement is proven and will be better. Thats all. People toss up names of desperation for him to be sacked but forget the grass is not always greener. We need to be careful what we wish for.
My point re Millward v Mary..we dont know how the conversations go down or who Mary likes or dislikes except the obvious ones.
I am told reliably that he has as good as input as many others to who is in his roster thats all. Cheers

 

[True_Believer]

Mary is responsible for his wants and needs within the roster. The question of how much players are offered, balancing the salary cap and identifying players to fill Mary’s needs is on Millward.

For example, Mary wants to keep Rein in the team, so Millward offers him a contract. Rein rejects the contract, wanting more. Millward doesn’t go any higher. Decision on how much to offer Rein is not on Mary, it’s Millward. So how can Mary be credited for picking McInnes over Rein?

Same argument applied for Thompson - Mary has Thommo and Sims on the books, plays Thommo at left edge. At contract time, Thommo is offered a contract (presumably on Mary’s recommendation, as he wants him in the team), and Millward (who manages the cap) dictates the value he can offer. Thommo refuses as he has a better offer at Manly. Then Mary puts Sims to the edge.

Most of the same is applied to every example you gave, so based on team/position selections (when all were available), timing of recruitment and so on, I can’t see anywhere that Mary has ‘flicked’ players for other options.

Also I apologise for accusing you of backing Mary, I misread your misguided defence of him as loyalty. No one should be subject to such vitriol.

The same can be applied for the examples given of other coaches ditching players and moving them on. Without going back and looking at them all, the one that I can remember being mentioned is Cameron Smith. Swain left Melbourne at the end of 2002 - Smith played halfback for 2 games in 2002 before taking over the hooking role in 2003. There's nothing to suggest that Bellamy made the decision to move Swain on - it may have been Swains decision to go and play for the Broncos on a more lucrative deal. Who knows? Hell Mary made the difficult decision to ditch Thommo to accommodate Sims - what a revelation that's been!!!

 

[Old Timer]

The same can be applied for the examples given of other coaches ditching players and moving them on. Without going back and looking at them all, the one that I can remember being mentioned is Cameron Smith. Swain left Melbourne at the end of 2002 - Smith played halfback for 2 games in 2002 before taking over the hooking role in 2003. There's nothing to suggest that Bellamy made the decision to move Swain on - it may have been Swains decision to go and play for the Broncos on a more lucrative deal. Who knows? Hell Mary made the difficult decision to ditch Thommo to accommodate Sims - what a revelation that's been!!!

Are you sure coach ditched Thommo or did recruitment allow him to look for longer term deal as he only had 1 year left with us and he was looking for more?
If Manly didn't offer him a contract he may well have stayed on with us for that extra year so not sure he was ditched.
Was coach doing recruitment when that happened or Millward?

 

[TruSaint]

Are you sure coach ditched Thommo or did recruitment allow him to look for longer term deal as he only had 1 year left with us and he was looking for more?
If Manly didn't offer him a contract he may well have stayed on with us for that extra year so not sure he was ditched.
Was coach doing recruitment when that happened or Millward?

Millward.

 

[True_Believer]

Are you sure coach ditched Thommo or did recruitment allow him to look for longer term deal as he only had 1 year left with us and he was looking for more?
If Manly didn't offer him a contract he may well have stayed on with us for that extra year so not sure he was ditched.
Was coach doing recruitment when that happened or Millward?

I don't know OT - I was just making a point that the same can be said for both situations. As Damo has eluded to previously, there are fair criticisms of Mary based on what we see - but there are also examples provided that are just plain baseless or made up. Even the OP in this thread is baseless. Yes, it's important to have a good coach, but to use the Manly game as an example to support the argument is a stretch at best.

I'm as critical of Mary as anyone, and I understand that people get frustrated with the situation as it stands and as it's been for years now, but some of the arguments put forward are just fallacies.

 

[BennyV]

The same can be applied for the examples given of other coaches ditching players and moving them on. Without going back and looking at them all, the one that I can remember being mentioned is Cameron Smith. Swain left Melbourne at the end of 2002 - Smith played halfback for 2 games in 2002 before taking over the hooking role in 2003. There's nothing to suggest that Bellamy made the decision to move Swain on - it may have been Swains decision to go and play for the Broncos on a more lucrative deal. Who knows? Hell Mary made the difficult decision to ditch Thommo to accommodate Sims - what a revelation that's been!!!

Could be, I’m not the one who made the initial claim re: ditching good players for better ones. I’m just saying that the claims that Mary ditched Rein, Thompson, etc for better options are untrue, since he didn’t ditch them at all - as evidenced by the fact that he played Thompson on the left edge while he and Sims were both at the club.

Although it is worth nothing that the clubs that Rufus outlined (Storm, Knights, etc) did not have a dedicated director of pathways to make recruitment decisions. We do.

 

[True_Believer]

Could be, I’m not the one who made the initial claim re: ditching good players for better ones. I’m just saying that the claims that Mary ditched Rein, Thompson, etc for better options are untrue, since he didn’t ditch them at all - as evidenced by the fact that he played Thompson on the left edge while he and Sims were both at the club.

Although it is worth nothing that the clubs that Rufus outlined (Storm, Knights, etc) did not have a dedicated director of pathways to make recruitment decisions. We do.

I'm just saying that this stuff gets thrown out there without a skerrick of evidence to prove that we are worse than other clubs.

And with regards to the director of pathways comment, if you cared to compare apples with apples using the same example, we probably didn't either back in 2002. If you look today, I'd be surprised if there was a club that didn't. Melbourne have 2 people filling the roles of pathways and recruitment - https://www.melbournestorm.com.au/about/staff-listing/.

 

[giboz71]

Millward makes the call on recruitment. Take the Dugan example, if it was up to Mary, he'd still be our fullback earning 800k a year and playing about half the games.

Thank God, Millward won that battle.

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/4608401/dugan-no1-priority-for-mcgregor/

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

Yeh I look at the now..not history.
Was JD available in 2014 when Mary took over?

He was the reserve grade coach at the time who won the comp and the interstate cup.
He had achieved the same feat the previous year in Qld.
Assistant coach under Green when the Cows won the comp in '15 and generally had an excellent CV and coaching experience without actually coaching FG.
But either did McGregor was appointed without any FG experience and with a very modest coaching CV and qualifications..
That's what I mean by Apples for Apples.
I look at now too but who are we at the end of the day? I thought we were one of the elite clubs in the comp.
Isn't our tradition and history part of our current profile as well.
You can't separate the 2 things IMO.

 

[True_Believer]

Millward makes the call on recruitment. Take the Dugan example, if it was up to Mary, he'd still be our fullback earning 800k a year and playing about half the games.

Thank God, Millward won that battle.

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/4608401/dugan-no1-priority-for-mcgregor/

I suspect most clubs work the same way - otherwise why have pathways teams or recruitment managers etc? It would make sense that the coach and recruitment manager talk about the positions needed to be filled, the recommended/preferred players, player priorities etc. Then the recruitment manager goes out and tries to meet those requirements within the budget. Although each club might do things slightly differently and there are other factors involved (eg TPAs), the basic premise would be the same.

 

[BLM01]

He was the reserve grade coach at the time who won the comp and the interstate cup.
He had achieved the same feat the previous year in Qld.
Assistant coach under Green when the Cows won the comp in '15 and generally had an excellent CV and coaching experience without actually coaching FG.
But either did McGregor was appointed without any FG experience and with a very modest coaching CV and qualifications..
That's what I mean by Apples for Apples.
I look at now too but who are we at the end of the day? I thought we were one of the elite clubs in the comp.
Isn't our tradition and history part of our current profile as well.
You can't separate the 2 things IMO.

JD won the comp for us in 2016. Back in 14 he was not available with any experience either when Mary appointed. Yes Mary got a 2 year extension in 17 or 3 year in 16...anyway semantics.
Look we wont win a comp with him but we made the final 6 last year. 10 coaches did not get that far. We did it with a back line roster no where near the Top 6.
All I say our next coach needs to take us to that Top 4-6 level consistently otherwise it is a sideways and potential backwards step

 

[BLM01]

Are you sure coach ditched Thommo or did recruitment allow him to look for longer term deal as he only had 1 year left with us and he was looking for more?
If Manly didn't offer him a contract he may well have stayed on with us for that extra year so not sure he was ditched.
Was coach doing recruitment when that happened or Millward?

He would of stayed but thommo was ditched to a point they not want to extend him. It was clear his impact as an edge backrower was waning for better impact... at our club anyway. So he got a 2 or 3 yr deal to start at Manly straight away. He took it as we let him go. Simple.
Millward was doing recruitment in 2017/2018 pre season but the coach also indicated that is how he saw Thommo's value going forward.
He will always come out in a players defense to say we dont want to lose em but deep down they do for other reasons. Now Manly want to move him on.