The lack of playing depth

[Old Timer]

OT, I don't think anyone on this forum believes 2-5 are tremendous FG players. Reality is we need TPA's to compete with the top 4 sides.

At present we don't have the financial clout to improve the squad. One would hope if we did we would not have persevered with Aitken, Lafai and co for the past couple of years.

The thread is about lack of depth and my contention is that if we consider / pick Aitken, Lafai, Pereira as 1st grade quality then one would have to conclude that our "depth" players would be of lesser quality.
That being the case if Lafai, Aitken & Pereira are actually not really week in week out 1st grade quality then surely it must follow that those playing ISP on a weekly basis will be even lower quality and surely as night follows day when called upon, they will be found wanting, so that is why we actually have a lack of depth.
The logic of why we recruit the Aitken's, Lafai's, Pereira's & Latimore's of the NRL is an entirely different subject altogether.
Now in light of the lack of TPA's and our inability to attract the high quality players on a regular basis then surely the cultivation and retention of our good quality junior stocks is of even more importance?
On that basis I consider it folly to contemplate / continue purchasing journeymen and wish & hope players whilst we continue to treat our own youth so poorly.
Keep and cultivate the best of your youth, save your pennies and get a good coach that makes it easier for the recruitment department to attract better quality players.

 

[Saints Forever]

The thread is about lack of depth and my contention is that if we consider / pick Aitken, Lafai, Pereira as 1st grade quality then one would have to conclude that our "depth" players would be of lesser quality.
That being the case if Lafai, Aitken & Pereira are actually not really week in week out 1st grade quality then surely it must follow that those playing ISP on a weekly basis will be even lower quality and surely as night follows day when called upon, they will be found wanting, so that is why we actually have a lack of depth.
The logic of why we recruit the Aitken's, Lafai's, Pereira's & Latimore's of the NRL is an entirely different subject altogether.
Now in light of the lack of TPA's and our inability to attract the high quality players on a regular basis then surely the cultivation and retention of our good quality junior stocks is of even more importance?
On that basis I consider it folly to contemplate / continue purchasing journeymen and wish & hope players whilst we continue to treat our own youth so poorly.
Keep and cultivate the best of your youth, save your pennies and get a good coach that makes it easier for the recruitment department to attract better quality players.

OT

I think the problem is since we lost Gasnier, Cooper, Morris our three quarter line is average.

There is not a lot of difference between Lafai, Aitken, Mann and Lomax at present.

Lomax has a much higher ceiling and has all the skills but we don’t know if he will be consistent.

Mann is a better defender than Aitken but has quite a few handling errors in him.

Lafai is hot and cold.

When he is on, he is very good.

So basically the “backup” may in fact be better than Mary’s first choice centres.

All our wing prospects are largely untried, so we don’t have a clue who will play wing in 2019 out of Pereira, Pearson, Ravalawa and Lomax.

We know Mann is a good winger, but given Mary’s attitude I doubt he will be given a chance to play wing.

Morris and Flo pre 2016 were terrific wingers. High quality and very consistent.

Think we all need to reserve judgment on depth till we actually see all of the wing prospects in action. If anything for various reasons they may all simply prove to be fringe first graders.

 

[BLM01]

Good point about not getting TPA's affecting your depth.

Just to answer your question on the Broncos - they last missed the 8 in 2013 - they finished 13th.
2013 - 13th
2014 - 8th
2015 - 2nd
2016 - 5th
2017 - 3rd
2018 - 6th

By comparison, Here's the record for the Roosters:-
2013 - 2nd
2014 - 3rd
2015 - 1st
2016 - 15th
2017 - 2nd
2018 - 1st

The Storm:-
2013 - 4th
2014 - 6th
2015 - 4th
2016 - 1st
2017 - 1st
2018 - 2nd

The Dragons:-
2013 - 15th
2014 - 11th
2015 - 8th
2016 - 11th
2017 - 9th
2018 - 7th

Ok re Broncos before 2013 it would of been a while..anyway dont go there I am probably wrong again

 

[possm]

Agree about opportunities but as our ISP team is normally in the top 4 every year would suggest that our depth is not too bad at all , just perhaps not balanced ( too many second rowers for instance but not enough front rowers or dare we say it centres.) This is why the pathways program is very important.Before anyone ridicules the programme the problem we have is extra money from Third party to get the right player to fill gaps in the sides makeup.

It all comes down to recruitment / pathways / coaching. Teams that consistently deliver in these three areas will most likely do well.

Players selected for ISP should be close to being ready to perform at NRL level. So to be promoted to or recruited for ISP a player really needs to have all of the basic skills sorted and in a position to refine these skills. I say forget about the light framed players who can't tackle or are afraid to compete for the ball. There are very few opportunities for such players to transform into a good NRL player.

 

[ouryears]

Strengths: SGI has wonderful depth in the back row.

Weakness: just about every other position.

Fullback: Dufty, then who? Widdop? Who would replace him at five-eighth? Mann? I don’t think too many of us are comfortable with this.

Wing is arguably the most frail position. I’m unconvinced McGregor will pick a bloke who’s played just 10 first grade games since 2016.

Halves are among the best in the comp but as we saw during the semis, if Saints lose either Hunt or Widdop, Saints are stuffed. A 30-year old halfback as contingency only highlights how awful Millward is in his duties.

Hooker is a concern for me because I do not rate McInnes, and a question mark remains on whether Robson is ready for the NRL.

Except for teams that RoRt..... being the RoRters themselves, and the purple cheaters, no team has quality all over the park.

To get to that, we need to learn how to RoRt.

And we don’t want that either.
History shows a club with heart and soul CAN do it.
To the few rooster and storm fans on planet earth, karma is a bitch

2019 could very well be a Saints Souths GF
Panthers Souths
Panthers Saints
Sharks Souths

I am keeping positive, you never know in sport.
Nothing is normal since Trump got in, if he got that gig, we can win the GF.

 

[Datramp]

It all comes down to recruitment / pathways / coaching. Teams that consistently deliver in these three areas will most likely do well.

Players selected for ISP should be close to being ready to perform at NRL level. So to be promoted to or recruited for ISP a player really needs to have all of the basic skills sorted and in a position to refine these skills. I say forget about the light framed players who can't tackle or are afraid to compete for the ball. There are very few opportunities for such players to transform into a good NRL player.

This. Sure we have a great ISP team. What are we doing to turn them into players that can transition to first grade though. Here is what I see happening currently:

- ISP player gets called up for First grade debut. All super excited, family and friends attend the game, celebrations

- Mary parks Player on bench for 75 minutes, brings them on in an unwinnable situation and tells them something vague like 'just follow the ball'

- We lose, ISP player is dropped and never seen again in first grade.

- Player is now effectively low on confidence and ISP coach needs to try and pick up the pieces.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Our ISP has faired verh well over the last few seasons, finishing:
2016 - 1st and premiers
2017 - 8th out in 2nd week of finals
2018 - 2nd out in 3rd week of finals

Out of the squad from last year we had:
Robson, Field, Sele, Host, Lawrie and Nichols, all make some cameos, he that fron the bench for 5 mins. Periera, Leilua and Lomax have played full games.
Apart from Dufty who else has transitioned from ISP to permanent 1st grade? And even now thete are those saying he isnt good enough.

 

[denis preston]

That is your assumption not mine as I was acutely aware that falling from 1st to 7th within half a season indicated a failed coach and that not being able to win games that should have been there for the taking also showed inadequacy's in our roster and bench utilisation.
I was already well and truly on record as a person that fully expected us to fall away due to both coach and roster.
Did you think the roster was strong enough to withstand the coach and if not what positions needed to be better?

Obviously not. Outside backs and another front rower would be great but it looks as though we will struggle to do this with our cap. I feel that the real issue here is management of the squad & the interchange , particularly in the forwards.We need to rest players when they are busted and trust their replacements are young and will learn from long hard minutes not just 5. Dropping players that are playing like shit would help as well. Conservative management stuffed us last season.

The way the backs performed when the forwards were dominating leads me to think that Taupau may be the best way to go rather than a outside back.

 

[Old Timer]

Obviously not. Outside backs and another front rower would be great but it looks as though we will struggle to do this with our cap. I feel that the real issue here is management of the squad & the interchange , particularly in the forwards.We need to rest players when they are busted and trust their replacements are young and will learn from long hard minutes not just 5. Dropping players that are playing like shit would help as well. Conservative management stuffed us last season.

The way the backs performed when the forwards were dominating leads me to think that Taupau may be the best way to go rather than a outside back.

I honestly think we need a high quality 3 or 4 to combine with Lomax
Much of what you say has merit but if Widdop goes down the backs look very ordinary without him and Hunt doesn’t seem to be able to shoulder it on his own

 

[AyiosYiorgos]

With Mann on the way to Newcastle, we look very weak in outside backs, we have lost from the top of my head, Matheson Johns, Garrick, Herbert, Nightingale, Nene and looks like Mann, the last 3 had heaps of experience and the first 3 are all big solid players that added depth and most could play 2 positions minimum, we really need some outside back signings, i think we have 3 spots left, not sure if there is quality out there for us to sign...

 

[Crush]

While @Old Timer is very negative IMO he is 100% correct. Aitken and Lafai, especially Lafai, don't make any team as a run on centre. Nobody says lets draft those guys into our team.
I reckon our 2-5 is by far the weakest in the comp. Luckily our 6-13 is one of the absolute strongest which makes us competitive.

 

[possm]

While @Old Timer is very negative IMO he is 100% correct. Aitken and Lafai, especially Lafai, don't make any team as a run on centre. Nobody says lets draft those guys into our team.
I reckon our 2-5 is by far the weakest in the comp. Luckily our 6-13 is one of the absolute strongest which makes us competitive.

Sorry guys, I guess you would say Millward is doing a great job.

I'd say he is not. We need at least two first grade backs, a winger/fullback - Johnston and a centre/winger - ? We also need one more first grade prop to avoid the mid season fatigue the forwards have experienced over the past few years - Tapau.

Can Millward do this?

 

[Crush]

Sorry guys, I guess you would say Millward is doing a great job.

I'd say he is not. We need at least two first grade backs, a winger/fullback - Johnston and a centre/winger - ? We also need one more first grade prop to avoid the mid season fatigue the forwards have experienced over the past few years - Tapau.

Can Millward do this?

Millward just needs to find a replacement for Lafai (like a proper nrl centre) and a top class winger.
We already have a gun fullback in Dufty, a cracking set of halves and a complete forward pack. No need for another prop, we have all we need.
Millward has done a good job thus far, if he can land a couple of backs for 2019 then he goes to the next level.

 

[redandwhite4evr]

With Mann on the way to Newcastle, we look very weak in outside backs, we have lost from the top of my head, Matheson Johns, Garrick, Herbert, Nightingale, Nene and looks like Mann, the last 3 had heaps of experience and the first 3 are all big solid players that added depth and most could play 2 positions minimum, we really need some outside back signings, i think we have 3 spots left, not sure if there is quality out there for us to sign...

Don't know if this will help or not- there are rumours emerging from the Storm camp that the only way the Storm can afford Cameron Smith for 2019 is to shed a couple of players- one that was mentioned is Cheyse Blair who is 194 cms tall and 100 kg. Not quite Nene proportions but getting up there. However, he is a winger/centre and not a full-back so he would be a replacement for Mann rather than an alternative for Dufty.

 

[New Dragon]

It’s hard to see how we can be viewed as just as strong as last year when we consider who we have lost and who we have gained. No LAM, no heme, no nene, no nightingale, no Herbert, any others? And who have we gained? Other than sims some ISP players. It will also be interesting to watch ISP this year as I reckon Herbert was a bit of a game changer at times last season

 

[redandwhite4evr]

While @Old Timer is very negative IMO he is 100% correct. Aitken and Lafai, especially Lafai, don't make any team as a run on centre. Nobody says lets draft those guys into our team.
I reckon our 2-5 is by far the weakest in the comp. Luckily our 6-13 is one of the absolute strongest which makes us competitive.

Nicely analysed Crush- my only disagreement- and it is a HUGE disagreement as it is such a key position- is Hunt. Based on his performances in 2018 across the full range of 1/2 back skills, in my book he is way down the list of NRL half backs. I would have put Townsend, Cronk, Cleary, Brooks, Cherry- Evans ,Pearce, Thurston and Reynolds ahead of him. Of course, that could change in 2019 but two exceptional judges of footballer flesh (Bennett and Walters) had cause to drop him in the past so I'm not confident.

 

[Saints Forever]

Apart from the loss of LAM and our 2 wingers we remain the same team.

Lomax, Lawrie and Leilua only got a sniff late in season. They will all improve.

Korbin Sims replaces Leeson. Not a straight swap but the emergence of Lawrie in particular makes our forwards even better.

Flo was cactus last season, a shadow of himself.

Nene was hot and cold during the season.

We don’t need “experienced” players to replace the wingers we lost. We need high quality replacements.

I predict Pearson/Lomax will play very well behind a gun pack.

The key is Dufty’s progression. He needs to fire otherwise Field will be given a shot at fullback.

 

[BLM01]

Don't know if this will help or not- there are rumours emerging from the Storm camp that the only way the Storm can afford Cameron Smith for 2019 is to shed a couple of players- one that was mentioned is Cheyse Blair who is 194 cms tall and 100 kg. Not quite Nene proportions but getting up there. However, he is a winger/centre and not a full-back so he would be a replacement for Mann rather than an alternative for Dufty.

No thankyou. Has played only a handful of games last 2 years. Melb did get the best out of him after stints at the Eels and Manly. He has no X factor we are looking for. He just shined when Melb put 50 against us.

 

[possm]

Nicely analysed Crush- my only disagreement- and it is a HUGE disagreement as it is such a key position- is Hunt. Based on his performances in 2018 across the full range of 1/2 back skills, in my book he is way down the list of NRL half backs. I would have put Townsend, Cronk, Cleary, Brooks, Cherry- Evans ,Pearce, Thurston and Reynolds ahead of him. Of course, that could change in 2019 but two exceptional judges of footballer flesh (Bennett and Walters) had cause to drop him in the past so I'm not confident.

Like most halves, Hunt performs magic behind a dominant pack of forwards. In the first half of the season, he and Widdop were outstanding then once fatigue set in within our forwards, he and Widdop began to fade which only got worse when Widdop was injured and out for the rest of the season.

 

[possm]

Apart from the loss of LAM and our 2 wingers we remain the same team.

Lomax, Lawrie and Leilua only got a sniff late in season. They will all improve.

Korbin Sims replaces Leeson. Not a straight swap but the emergence of Lawrie in particular makes our forwards even better.

Flo was cactus last season, a shadow of himself.

Nene was hot and cold during the season.

We don’t need “experienced” players to replace the wingers we lost. We need high quality replacements.

I predict Pearson/Lomax will play very well behind a gun pack.

The key is Dufty’s progression. He needs to fire otherwise Field will be given a shot at fullback.

We have too many problem areas in our backline to overcome without bringing in some quality players. To me it seems like we must have loads of cap space left over but left it too late to use it. We do need cover for fullback and Field is not that cover. We do need one more new centre to pair with Lomax and there is still a question mark over right wing.

Herbert was our new left centre who could also cover fullback.
Pereira and Pearson are both left wingers.

It has been said that Herbert has not been picked up by the Warriors and so, what ever he did wrong to warrant no extension offer from SGI, should be sorted out and we should at least offer him a one year deal.

We will be stuck with Aitken and Lafai for anothr two years so it is better to send them to ISP sooner rather than later in the hope they will ask for a release. With the cap space we already should have, together with the cap space these two freeloaders are taking up, SGI could field a very strong NRL backline.