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I don't mind - "It's good to talk" ;-)
If my memory serves me correct, St George struggled for their first 7 or 8 games or so. I could be wrong as im not a stgeorge supporter but early on they looked like an ordinary side until I think it was Barrett returned from injury to steer them around the park. I am not sure, but Ryles and Bailey may have also returned at the same time. That is what turned them around and from there, i will admit some of their younger unheralded players started to improve and continue to get better.Willow said:btwlol you still haven't revealed what these odds were. They must be slippery.
FYI, Saints played with out both Ryles and Bailey for large portions of the year.
Luke Bailey 7 games
Trent Barrett 16 games
Jason Ryles 14 games
You were trying to predict things based on 2003 form without considering other rising players.
bender said:The reason we first got onto this discussion (from my side of things) dates back a number of years to the old LWOS forum. It is my opinion that StGIlla when they merged were a great merger and for several years, StGilla went along concentrating solely on their own juniors of which they have a great nursery. And unlike most clubs (sydney clubs in particular) When they had a couple of years without being contenders (even now i dont think they are one of the top 4 teams on paper) the supporters attacked them as underachievers and wanted players to be bought to fix them up.
Saints won 5 from the first 8 games.bender said:If my memory serves me correct, St George struggled for their first 7 or 8 games or so. I could be wrong as im not a stgeorge supporter but early on they looked like an ordinary side until I think it was Barrett returned from injury to steer them around the park. I am not sure, but Ryles and Bailey may have also returned at the same time. That is what turned them around and from there, i will admit some of their younger unheralded players started to improve and continue to get better.
Yeah I remeber and fair enough about them being under achievers. IMO, we should have done better this year. But I don't blame anyone for last year.bender said:The reason we first got onto this discussion (from my side of things) dates back a number of years to the old LWOS forum.
I disagree. Hornby is a solid fullback and Simmonds is one of the most underated wingers in the competition. With the departure of Blacklock, they seem to have bought a truckload of outside backs for next season as well as a few coming through.bender said:ON their actual side:
The back three for St George are very ordinary and this is one of the areas they desperately need to strengthen and unearth a young star. (i dont think Torrens will be the answer). Saying that, I guess there is no better positions to be discovering youngsters than here.
Gasnier and Cooper? Well they are both near enough to first choice for the rep selectors now except that Gasnier is injured. Who do think are the better centres?bender said:I see their centres as potential premiership winning centres although not as good as the other top pairings in the competition.
You need to get the name right. ;-) Firman broke his leg after round 1 and was shipped out to the Roosters for 2005. Head has been a sensation and was the club's top point scorer for 2004. I think he has superseded the "will improve" stage.bender said:Halves, with Barrett playing, STG have a premiership threatening halves pair. I think the youngster you had last year (was it head or firman) will improve.
He is playing with Parra next year.bender said:Riddell is a little ordinary but in saying that he does seem to get the job done.
I think it's time for the Broncos to get a new coach. Too much emphasis on past warhorses. There was even talk of Bennett re-calling Steve Renouf last year.bender said:Whether I can turn this into a bet with you willow, i will have to wait until later before i decide. Maybe a Broncos v Dragons bet? How do you rate the broncos for next year.
Better Centres from this year(as a pairing) would be: Hannay/Bowman; Tate/Berigan; Tonga/Harris;Hodges/Hegarty off the top of my head are better as a whole. I would rate the St G pairing probably next, on par with the Melbourne centres.Willow said:Gasnier and Cooper? Well they are both near enough to first choice for the rep selectors now except that Gasnier is injured. Who do think are the better centres?
He seems to have gone quite well, but i think sensation is a bit strong. Halfback is a pivotal position and it is near on impossible to be confident in a one season halfback no matter how good they are. Allan Langer; Matt Orford; Andrew Johns etc all took several years before a team can safely say they are set in that position and are a good enough half to win a comp with. Anyone remember Matt Rodwell or Jason Martin??? Head (i get him confused with Firman but then again i also get him confused with Finch that is just my old age setting in i think) hasnt reached that level, yet and i wouldnt be 100% confident about him developing into a premiership winning half. In his advantage is Barrett and when all fit a good front row that can lay an excellent platform for him. But, I still think he needs huge improvement. Dont forget, there was a time when Berrigan was seen as a natural choice for Qld's half and he is now seen as not an option.Head has been a sensation and was the club's top point scorer for 2004. I think he has superseded the "will improve" stage.
You are probably right about the shortage of tough forwards, that seem to be developing in the game. And what is worst most of the younger ones seem to be Kiwis.He is playing with Parra next year.
To answer your query regarding the forwards, I don't think Saints have a shortage of stock here. The problem is finding the forwards who have the real ticker to cart it up and tackle all day. IMO, there are not many real 'tough' forwards in the comp.
Thompson and Bailey are our best here and Ryles is turning onto a specialist off-loader.
I think it's time for the Broncos to get a new coach. Too much emphasis on past warhorses. There was even talk of Bennett re-calling Steve Renouf last year.
Daithi O'Conaill said:That's because the whole point of our club merging was that we would be able to compete with the best and be a 'Super Club'. It we are going to be perennial also rans we might as well be stand alone also rans.
And we got Kite from Canberra.
I didn't say he was the next Johns... he'll be his own player.bender said:He seems to have gone quite well, but i think sensation is a bit strong. Halfback is a pivotal position and it is near on impossible to be confident in a one season halfback no matter how good they are. Allan Langer; Matt Orford; Andrew Johns etc all took several years before a team can safely say they are set in that position and are a good enough half to win a comp with. Anyone remember Matt Rodwell or Jason Martin??? Head (i get him confused with Firman but then again i also get him confused with Finch that is just my old age setting in i think) hasnt reached that level, yet and i wouldnt be 100% confident about him developing into a premiership winning half. In his advantage is Barrett and when all fit a good front row that can lay an excellent platform for him. But, I still think he needs huge improvement. Dont forget, there was a time when Berrigan was seen as a natural choice for Qld's half and he is now seen as not an option.Willow said:Head has been a sensation and was the club's top point scorer for 2004. I think he has superseded the "will improve" stage.
Yes, that reason is that Bowman, tate, Berrigan, Hodges, Hegarty etc are all Queenslanders!!! Plus Vagana is a Kiwi and Keith Senior is a pom.Ribs said:Hegarty and Hodges over Gasnier and Cooper?
Gasnier and Cooper are the NSW centres........... for a reason.
As for the back 3, Hornby is not a quiet achiever anymore, it is widely accepted that he is the second best fullback behind Mini in NSW and I would have him over Mini any day due to his ability to kick and move the ball.
I do agree and i did state that St George had an excellent season last year and they overachieved. IMO, St Gilla (for the players they have had) have played very well and had brilliant results since their merger. That is the signof a good club and good club spirit. But, i think they are overated. Compare next years side to the side that lost to Brisbane two years in a row and I think you will find that this side is not as strong. Whether players will improve next year again, like they did this year, and they can become a comparable or better side is the test. If they do improve, they will be one of the sides to beat. If they dont, they will just scrape into the 8.As for leaving us behind Penrith in your assessment, have a look at the home and away results against them this year.
44 - 18 Round 6 and 28 - 8 Round 14. Had it not been for the bye, the one point loss in the finals may well have been a different result.
You also put Tate and Berrigan over our centres but if we base it on strike power, the stats make you look foolish.
Gasnier 11 tries from 12 games
Cooper 17 tries from 23 games
Tate 5 tries from 22 games (is he serious?)
Berrigan 9 tries from 16 games
Some Knowledgeable Saints supporters have already given me some lessons. Head is one who may be better than i thought and so is Hornby (i never thought of him as close to the second best in NSW) I will keep an eye on both next time i watch saints. Still, even allowing for those two developing and me slightly underestimating one or two others, there is still no way of saying I am way off the mark unless you are dreaming (a supporters right i guess).What you need to do my friend is some homework before making statements such as the ones above.
Lots of homework. At the moment you are way off the mark.
This is the whole point everyone seems to miss. The decision to merge has been made. Why fight it. Who cares if Illawarra had brought Nothing to the the table and saints were owned by Rupert Murdoch? Saints made a decision to merge and adopt Illawarra supporters. There is (or should be no difference between the two clubs as they are one). Saints play as i understand 1 or 2 games at Kogarah each year. This doesnt effect Illawarra at all but it pleases St George supporters therefore it is a good thing. Using the steellers as an away strip (less badge if its an issue) has no effect on StG fans whatsoever so why would you do it. Same with the Illawarra Stgeorge name. You will still be the St George Dragons, and St George will always be the team name, it just ensures that the Illawarra part isnt totally forgotten as happens now with Canterburty bankstown, Cronulla sutherland Sharks etc. Either way it makes no difference at all to St George fans.As for giving more to Illawarra, Saints had the finances to stand alone and Illawarra did not. They have a team down there to follow and they should be happy with it.
Ok, I accept your point. I have used language a little strong. Remember, I also said they were potential premiership winning centres. They are not clearly the two best centres in the competition, as the other combinations i mentioned are every bit as good as them. Amongst the top 8 teams they dont give Saints any particular advantage over the other sides at the moment. They may this time next year. Will they be the centre pairing for NSW if Lyons returns with a host of tries, or if Gidley bags a heap of tries for Newcastle, I doubt it. And even if they are, there are still plenty of players from Queensland on par or ahead of them even though they are good players.Ribs said:My point is that you are referring to Gasnier and Cooper as up and comers, yet they are and will be the centre pairing for NSW.
The problem is that many people cloud their hate for a team/player with their ability on the football field. Hodges when he played for australia was a class above Gasnier and Cooper from last year. This year he had a poor year by those standards and I would see he has dropped back to roughly their level (still a good year). According to some people Walker cant tackle and is the worst player in the game; Hodges had a discraceful last 6 months; Crocker gives away 2 many silly penalties and is a thug who cant play; Fittler is old and overated; Finch makes too many mistakes, yet the side still finished second and along with Canterbury were a class above everybody else this year. Hodges and Hegarty (or Cross) or even Walker despite maybe being dickheads are still very good players.Hegarty is an ok winger at best and Hodges' form has been disgraceful for the better part of 6 months.
I never knew that, I thought it was Ikin who married Bennetts daughter. Does he have a second daughter? I havent argued Tates strike rate for a pretty good reason. I think he is a very good player whom i rate about the same level as Gasnier and Cooper maybe a shade better but maybe not, it would depend on form. I wouldnt have put him in my australian side.I noticed you didnt make too much of Tate's strike power. 5 tries in 23 appearances is pathetic and he hasnt done anything to warrant selection in the test side, besides marry Bennetts daughter.
Not at all, I think it is more a case that you dont seem to have a grasp of the talent of some of the other players going around at the moment.You just dont seem to have a grasp of the talent of Gasnier and Cooper and to be honest, I havent met too many people who share your opinion.
Its laughable that you use Walker as an example, he cant tackle and isnt even first grade material. Cooper is one of the best defensive centres in the game and Gasnier certainly isnt a defensive weakness.
Hornby played in Origin one and was a shock omission fromt he remaining games, are you aware he played Origin this year?
No i was just making a point that if they were as rich as could be. Dont wish to argue Superleague/ant murdoch just yet.Saints owned by Rupert Murdoch? Are you serious? Are you thinking of the Sharks or just trying to make some point?
I thought they packed it for a game or two this year or last year. Though saying that, wasnt i asking a question rather than making a statement? If Saints dont play 1 or 2 game at Kogarah each year surely that is a joke isnt it. Do the St George faction of the merger even care about tradition?You seem to have plenty to say but based on incorrect information. Since when do Saints play 1 or 2 games at Kogarah? Have you been out of the country?
I live in another state and cheer for a different team. It is hardly surprising that I dont have an intimite knowledge of one of about 8 sydney teams that finished 7th in the playoff series of a 15 team competion.Have you been out of the country?
We need 2 or 3 class players???
Ryles/Bailey/Timmins/Barrett/Gasnier/Cooper/Hornby/Thompson are all rep players (Thommo for City) and you say we need more? Have you heard of the salary cap.
My recollection is that he was a shock selection ahead of Patton, because Minichello and was unavailable and Peachey and Hodgson were either injured or out of form. And it was also widely recognised that NSW had no decent fulbacks remember the jokes that NSW wanted to swap some halfbacks for fulbacks
bender said:Sadly, it has been a long time since St George won a premiership and you seem to forget how to do it. You have just listed 8 class players (and there is no way known to earth that Thomson is a class player although i will give him the benefit of the doubt). Sadly, that is 2 or 3 class players short of a premiership winning side.
Look at Canterbury
Patten/ElMasri/Tonga/Utai/Anasta/Sherwin/Bill Williams/Asotasi/Price/Mason/OMeley are all origin or test class players (or if not, within in an inch of attaining this level) plust the remaining players are all solid first graders in very good form. Roosters are the same and then it becomes arguable with Brisbane, Penrith, and Melbourne. Even the cowboys this year had:
Bowen, Bowman, Hannay, Fien, Norton, Morrisson, Campion, Odonnell, Rauhihi with Williams, Payne and Tronc taking the extra step up in Class during the finals series. To be a real threat, you need at least two or 3 players to take the step up in class and everyone else to perform.
No, 5 games last year, 4 games this year. It would be more if we had lights and that's on the agenda for 2005-2006 with a possible 8 million upgrade planned. But why am I telling you this? You'll have forgotten it by next year when this thread is resurrected again. :lol:bender said:I thought they packed it for a game or two this year or last year.
No, you made a statement:bender said:Though saying that, wasnt i asking a question rather than making a statement?
That's not a question."Saints play as i understand 1 or 2 games at Kogarah each year. This doesnt effect Illawarra at all but it pleases St George supporters therefore it is a good thing."
lol... with respect mate, it hasn't stopped you firing blanks.bender said:I live in another state and cheer for a different team. It is hardly surprising that I dont have an intimite knowledge...
:lol: Keep it a bit real. Everyone else has at least argued sensibly.bender said:Bender this is some of the biggest dribble I have ever heard. Just go and crawl back under the rock that you came from. If you followed the game you would know that Lance Thompson was talked about as a certainty for origin this year before he got injured.
Ontop of that we have Kite, Ryles, Hornby, Gasnier, Cooper, Timmins & Barrett who all played SOO this year plus Kite, Ryles, Timmins & Cooper who have earned Australian selection. We have class players coming out of our ar*ehole. Its getting all these guys to stay on the park and to play well as a team is our problem. I don't think you could even begin to say that Nth Qld have any class players, they have good players that play very, very well as a team.
If you want to talk about struggling teams lets talk about the broncos who choke in the finals, haven't even won a finals game in how long, lost their captain and most influential player. Broncos are struggling no matter how you want to sugar coat it.
"(From) his (Clinton's) last game to the Origin game is a month and that's a long time," Gould said.
"We thought the same with Timana Tahu, who's been there before, we thought the same with Lance Thompson.
"Effectively we didn't consider them.
Canberras Ryan OHara and Canterburys Mark OMeley have also benefited from injuries to other potential origin candidates, most notably St George Illawarras Lance Thompson, and the Panthers Joel Clinton. Both front-rowers selected have been strong at club level and will be supported off the bench by Dragons debutant Brent Kite and the Bulldogs Willie Mason.
Meanwhile the NSW camp has some injury concerns of its own, with star forwards Jason Ryles (knee) and Ben Kennedy (Hamstring) unlikely to be available after aggravating old injuries over the weekend.
The Blues are already without skipper Andrew Johns, Knights teammates Steve Simpson and Timana Tahu and Dragons trio Lance Thompson, Trent Barrett and Luke Bailey because of injury. Impressive young St George centre Matt Cooper is also in doubt after injuring himself in his sides loss to the Bulldogs.