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Too many juniors/rookies?

Dragon Revival

Juniors
Messages
1,603
Typically we have at least half-a-dozen NRL squad players injured at any time. NSW Cup are strong in the forwards and fairly weak in the backs while the Under 20's are relatively weak in the forwards and strong in the backs. It definitely is cheaper to recruit
from within.
 
Messages
17,055
Typically we have at least half-a-dozen NRL squad players injured at any time. NSW Cup are strong in the forwards and fairly weak in the backs while the Under 20's are relatively weak in the forwards and strong in the backs. It definitely is cheaper to recruit
from within.
I disagree on the part both the NSW Cup and Under 20's are weak in certain aspects.

Most of the backs in the NSW Cup are young and inexperienced that doesn't equate to them being weak also the forward back is a hard working no frills pack and honestly thats all you need with players developing.

The under 20's forwards are all very young they lost alot of experience at that level from last year and the guys brought in from SG Ball are learning their trade with room for improvement.

The club has players with potential and imo that matters the most. Will many make it thats hard to say but this is how the club will survive as attracting top line players and being able to pay them is another issue entirely.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
13,273
Only 5% of NYC players go on to play more than 50 NRL games. So it will be dependant on how well thy are brought through and who is actually able to cut it on the big show.

The advantage of having so many is that we can actually do the right thing and allow them to pay their dues and prep their bodies for a season or two in Reggies.

However, when you have a coach who selects journeymen and out-of-position oldies over juniors when looking to cover injuries, all the youngsters in the world wont help us.
Just watched Angus Crichton rip it up and he is from a rugby background and only 21.
Lucky he plays for Souths because he wouldn't be getting a go here that's for sure.
Highly doubtful Hess would have made SOO from this club let alone at 20.
All the talk about we have a pathway and I keep seeing 20 & 21 year olds selected in run on teams at other clubs and the deliver the goods and see nothing remotely resembling that here and yet again we get Nighty to 1 and KFFL to wing.
Honestly it beggars belief and to top it off we have Marketo as the hooker in reggies and would not doubt cover off a spine position if Mary was given the chance.
Some people saying we have improved and over achieved well certainly not in this area.
 

rasaint

Juniors
Messages
724
My contribution is not that informed. I have found it is still a lottery to a fair degree as to which juniors emerge from the 20s etc as top NRl players. We seem to have a lot of great possibilities but it's still a mix of luck and intuition.
 

MilanDragon

Juniors
Messages
902
Just watched Angus Crichton rip it up and he is from a rugby background and only 21.
Lucky he plays for Souths because he wouldn't be getting a go here that's for sure.
Highly doubtful Hess would have made SOO from this club let alone at 20.
All the talk about we have a pathway and I keep seeing 20 & 21 year olds selected in run on teams at other clubs and the deliver the goods and see nothing remotely resembling that here and yet again we get Nighty to 1 and KFFL to wing.
Honestly it beggars belief and to top it off we have Marketo as the hooker in reggies and would not doubt cover off a spine position if Mary was given the chance.
Some people saying we have improved and over achieved well certainly not in this area.

Interesting point about Hess. He started the season on the bench, much like Host or now Sele. They had Taumalolo out for a fair few games as well as Matt Scott out for the season, when Taumalolo was suspended only then did Hess get a game starting. He actually went back to the bench when Taumalolo came back in, despite showing amazing form. In fact he has started the last 5 games for the cows off the bench. We have had Sele playing the last how many ever games off the bench and before that it was Host. We just haven't yet had a forward out for an extended period. Our forwards are also arguably playing better than the cowboys forwards.

Last year I actually believe we brought Host in for a fair few games and Luc got a run too.

It's probably how we are progressing our backs that is more of an issue.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
13,273
Interesting point about Hess. He started the season on the bench, much like Host or now Sele. They had Taumalolo out for a fair few games as well as Matt Scott out for the season, when Taumalolo was suspended only then did Hess get a game starting. He actually went back to the bench when Taumalolo came back in, despite showing amazing form. In fact he has started the last 5 games for the cows off the bench. We have had Sele playing the last how many ever games off the bench and before that it was Host. We just haven't yet had a forward out for an extended period. Our forwards are also arguably playing better than the cowboys forwards.

Last year I actually believe we brought Host in for a fair few games and Luc got a run too.

It's probably how we are progressing our backs that is more of an issue.
You are correct about Sele now playing in 1st now but can you tell me actually why Host was dropped as he played 5 games to begin the season of which we won 4 and he played well considering the limited game time?
Hess was left in the 1st grade squad and has been allowed to settle and develop with an intermingling of playing off the bench and in the run on side.
This week is a good example of what we do Frizz is out and Sims starts.
Sims is a regular bench rotation player and Sele a youngster learning his trade so why not leave him Sims on the bench and let Sele start?
After all if Frizz was available Sims would never get a starting spot above him under any circumstances so his quality is known but the unknown quantity is Sele so what are we scared of if we pick him in the run on side?
 

MilanDragon

Juniors
Messages
902
You are correct about Sele now playing in 1st now but can you tell me actually why Host was dropped as he played 5 games to begin the season of which we won 4 and he played well considering the limited game time?
Hess was left in the 1st grade squad and has been allowed to settle and develop with an intermingling of playing off the bench and in the run on side.
This week is a good example of what we do Frizz is out and Sims starts.
Sims is a regular bench rotation player and Sele a youngster learning his trade so why not leave him Sims on the bench and let Sele start?
After all if Frizz was available Sims would never get a starting spot above him under any circumstances so his quality is known but the unknown quantity is Sele so what are we scared of if we pick him in the run on side?

Correct about Sims going in, could it have been either Host or Sele? Absolutely! Would I have liked that too in the sense they are juniors getting more minutes? Yes.

In saying that, I highly doubt Sims will play as many minutes as Frizz normally would, so potentially Sele and Host will get just as many minutes as they would've even if they were starting, plus the benefit is they are coming off the bench and could potentially make more impact.

My point was more around our juniors are getting a go, can't really say Hess is but Sele/Host didn't get a go.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
13,273
Correct about Sims going in, could it have been either Host or Sele? Absolutely! Would I have liked that too in the sense they are juniors getting more minutes? Yes.

In saying that, I highly doubt Sims will play as many minutes as Frizz normally would, so potentially Sele and Host will get just as many minutes as they would've even if they were starting, plus the benefit is they are coming off the bench and could potentially make more impact.

My point was more around our juniors are getting a go, can't really say Hess is but Sele/Host didn't get a go.
My preference would have been for Host to start and the bench stay the same with Sele and Sims.
My angst with Simms starting comes from the fact that being in the run on side would mean so much to the young players and should lift them whereas starting form there bench is a bit ho hum as they have had plenty of that.
We have to show faith in the youth rather than always being conservative.
Sims is a mature player and if he was really good he would have already forced his way into the run on side, so IMO you gain nothing by putting him there.
Far more upside by rewarding the younger brigade.
 

Dragon66

Juniors
Messages
640
Only 5% of NYC players go on to play more than 50 NRL games. So it will be dependant on how well thy are brought through and who is actually able to cut it on the big show.

The advantage of having so many is that we can actually do the right thing and allow them to pay their dues and prep their bodies for a season or two in Reggies.

However, when you have a coach who selects journeymen and out-of-position oldies over juniors when looking to cover injuries, all the youngsters in the world wont help us.

So so true! And another point about Mary's coaching is "loyalty" - to make any meaningful changes to the team, or promote aspiring juniors to starting spots the team would probably have to lose 10 in a row before he would decide to test their potential. The limited minutes to Sele, Field and Host will continue irrespective of how they perform.
 

possm

Coach
Messages
13,870
You were smarter than you think...although I must be missing some sort of relevance...
The high priority in developing juniors is all to do with pride. The pride that our Club can facilitate the growth of young players in the game of rugby league and the proud feeling when players like Gasneir, Cooper, Nightingale etc not only represent the Club in first grade but also go on to be representative players.

However, our Club pays a pretty price for this pride. In many instances - Bird, players consume expensive resources only to leave the Club when they finally can be of value to the Club. In the case of Bird, Mary, Doust and pathways got it very wrong. Bird should have been extended and upgraded on a two/three year deal a year before his contract was up. Everyone and his dog believed Bird was going to be a good first grader. The only problem was that Bird's introduction to first grade for the Dragons was not properly planned.

I have no doubt that if Bird still had a two year deal with thee Dragons at the time he went to the Sharks, he would have been happily playing in first grade for us by the time his contract was up -this year or next and we would have been receiving the benefits of his talants.
 

possm

Coach
Messages
13,870
Newcastle Knights do a great job of promoting their juniors/rookies.....
Brown was always good at that. You know if we had an ex coach, who is renowned for bring through juniors, to look after pathways and be part of the coaching staff, we would be much better off.
 

duck

Juniors
Messages
2,017
Brown was always good at that. You know if we had an ex coach, who is renowned for bring through juniors, to look after pathways and be part of the coaching staff, we would be much better off.
You either didn't see my question in the other thread or you chose to ignore it.

I'll repeat it;
"We currently have 4 of our 2016 U20 squad with first grade experience.
Which other club can boast this number?"

Your constant negative dribble about pathways and junior development is unfounded.
 

MilanDragon

Juniors
Messages
902
You either didn't see my question in the other thread or you chose to ignore it.

I'll repeat it;
"We currently have 4 of our 2016 U20 squad with first grade experience.
Which other club can boast this number?"

Your constant negative dribble about pathways and junior development is unfounded.

Yep and I think people forget Aitken is only 22, as well as Milne. Aitken was blooded a couple of years ago when still eligible for U20.

Luc only turns 21 this year and was blooded last year as a 20 year old.

Everyone points to Bird when we talk about not blooding juniors, but hey I'm sure every club has a junior they wish they had of kept!

Melbourne managed to keep lots, including Inglis but they had to pay their players on two sets of books, when doing it legitimately even Melbourne couldn't keep him. Bulldogs didn't keep Thurston. We have half of Canberras juniors playing for us. And the list goes on..
 

blacksafake

Guest
Messages
5,606
My preference would have been for Host to start and the bench stay the same with Sele and Sims.
My angst with Simms starting comes from the fact that being in the run on side would mean so much to the young players and should lift them whereas starting form there bench is a bit ho hum as they have had plenty of that.
We have to show faith in the youth rather than always being conservative.
Sims is a mature player and if he was really good he would have already forced his way into the run on side, so IMO you gain nothing by putting him there.
Far more upside by rewarding the younger brigade.
Also by having host/Sele starting means not having 2 rookies on the bench which most likely means they would both be brought on together at the same time. By having Sims on the bench means there will be at least one experienced back rower to come on if needed.
 
Messages
17,055
The knights have no choice on paper they would have one of the most inexperienced loine ups in the NRL at present.

Their NSW Cup squad has experience but most are average at best.

Under 20's they are doing a fair job in that comp i must say.
 

Life's Good

Coach
Messages
13,971
From a first grade perspective it's about giving the juniors/rookies a go when the time is right. That might be through origin, a run of losses, injuries, trial matches etc. I think we have had those this year(and definitely last year)and whilst Mary has done a good job with his first choice team I think he needs to improve in the next level of players and the opportunities he gives them.
 
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