Toulouse Franchise bid for SL

[dallymessenger]

What is the point in having 2 struggling french teams?
Why not just have one succesful one?
Two french teams in the bottom 5 of SL is only going to serve to make them look sub-standard to the 'cappers, and there is a glut of people wanting not just Catalans but Celtic and Toulouse to fail.

I just dont get the running before walking.



I would agree there, we shall find out in due time if that is the case, I personally dont think their application will be one of the strongest, you obviously do.


again, this is just your opinion, my opinion is that if there were French players who want the big time its there for them already



6-10? there gonna need at least 15 French players, even if those players are only to make up the squad.

and BTW the "70" players figure you have plucked out of the air will need to be introduced over the next 3 years, roughly about 30 players per year spread over 12-14 clubs, dosent seem too much of a problem. Toulouse need to find an entire squad within the next 8 months.

read cliff spracklens post here and tell me you dont get excited about the teams potential :

http://www.totalrl.com/fansforum/index.php?showtopic=45428&st=45

Toulose will have one of the strongest bids around ie it will make the top 14 so if its done properly i dont see how they miss out.

already they will have a budget of 4.8 million euros with councils and business behind them.

and who the heck says Les Cats are struggling, either off or on the field? good results in SL, and great crowds.

 

[langpark]

read cliff spracklens post here and tell me you dont get excited about the teams potential :

http://www.totalrl.com/fansforum/index.php?showtopic=45428&st=45

Toulose will have one of the strongest bids around ie it will make the top 14 so if its done properly i dont see how they miss out.

already they will have a budget of 4.8 million euros with councils and business behind them.

and who the heck says Les Cats are struggling, either off or on the field? good results in SL, and great crowds.

I read it, but alot of wat he says seems more like hearsay than fact.

 

[dallymessenger]

I read it, but alot of wat he says seems more like hearsay than fact.

the business plan is the key.

having sponsorship from council and business.

still if your not convinced good for you, hopefully the RFL dont share your pessimism

 

[langpark]

the business plan is the key.

having sponsorship from council and business.

still if your not convinced good for you, hopefully the RFL dont share your pessimism

Don't even try and make me look like I don't want the whole Toulouse thing to succeed. All I'm saying is you're putting all your faith in this guy who has no real concrete evidence to back up anything he's saying.

 

[dallymessenger]

Don't even try and make me look like I don't want the whole Toulouse thing to succeed. All I'm saying is you're putting all your faith in this guy who has no real concrete evidence to back up anything he's saying.

read around about spracklen.

he has a regular column in Rugby League Review on the game in france.

i dare say he knows more about RL in france than all of us combined.

if he says they have strong sponsors on board, i believe him.

according to him, their franchise bid now is stronger than when Les Cats were accepted into the competition.

 

[Redsfan]

Is Stade Toulousain tied up in this bid? When are then new ESL teams announced?

 

[KiwiStorm]

When are then new ESL teams announced?

The 14 teams for the 2009 Super League season will be announced in July.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Is Stade Toulousain tied up in this bid?

No, it has nothing to do with them.

 

[marv]

read cliff spracklens post here and tell me you dont get excited about the teams potential

Of course I get Exited when I hear these kind of things about expansion and possible potential Dally, but I agree with Langpark, Its hearsay and supposition as most business plans are, Its impossible to know what is going to happen, Im not saying these guys havent done their homework, but its a huge gamble.

On a much smaller scale I know, but just an example from personal experience. Less than four years ago I did my own business plan, it was one of the most difficult parts of building my fledgling business, give me the 13 hour days over writing that thing again anyday!
Thankfully things went well for me and exeeded the plan, but there were times it could have so easily gone the other way and the truth behind it was....I really didnt know how things were going to pan out, but had to put a plan together to keep the bank happy.

and who the heck says Les Cats are struggling, either off or on the field? good results in SL, and great crowds.

Well for starts you can look at where they finish come the end of the season rather than Rd12!

And maybe the fact that the coach has just left and 15 players fall off contract at the end of the year, suggests there is walking for French RL to do before it can be running.

 

[marv]

read around about spracklen.

he has a regular column in Rugby League Review on the game in france.

i dare say he knows more about RL in france than all of us combined.

if he says they have strong sponsors on board, i believe him.

according to him, their franchise bid now is stronger than when Les Cats were accepted into the competition.

Dont patronise people Dally, anyone with the slightest intrest in French RL knows who Cliff is and I respect his knowledge and opinion on the French game over almost anyone.

It doesnt change my opinion that this time is too soon for Toulouse, there just simply isnt the players to make it viable ATM.

If you watch the LER highlights you will know the standard is shocking, let the LER become stronger then the players pulled out for SL will have a better chance of success

 

[marv]

hopefully the RFL dont share your pessimism

Lets hope they dont share your wild message board optimism

 

[East Coast Tiger]

The fact is there is, IF the RFL choose to increase SL to 14 clubs there will be a need for more players to step up to that level. The standard of NL football is clearly well below that of SL but that is exactly where English clubs will have to look, in part, to find these extra players. France is actually a better option for finding SL players than the NLs because the French game has been underutilised as a source of recruitment. Three years ago only about two players played SL and the likes pf Rinaldi, Bosc, Ferriol etc were all playing in the LER. Clearly no one thought there were any FRench players worthy of playing SL then but given the chance there are now 10 or more French players who are proven SL regulars. Even now France is still underutilised and we are seeing clubs like Hull and Leeds looking for squad players from the LER. By next year there may well be up to an extra 40-odd players from Europe needed to fill SL squads. I don't see why England is in a significantly better position to fill all of these positions compared to filling 20-odd and France contributing a dozen or so with the rest coming from the NRL which is the likely situation were Toulouse and another English club promoted.

 

[marv]

But the standard of NL1 Football is streets ahead of the LER however "underutilised"

 

[East Coast Tiger]

So? A SL squad requires 25-30 players. The general standard of the competition from which they get some of those players doesn't mean anything. What does matter is the ability of the individual players signed. Basically, as long as there is a dozen or so French players capable of playing SL in the next couple of years it doesn't matter if the rest of the players in the LER are under 12 standard. Conversely, it doesn't matter if every player in NL1 is NL1 standard if there is not one that can step up to SL. These are just examples of course but the point stands - France is relatively untapped and chances are there are more players there who can become SL players of the ilk of Bosc, Ferriol, Mounic etc. The standard of SL will drop with 14 teams, it has to. But the players have to come from somewhere. If Toulouse and, say, Salford get in, some will come from France, some will come from the NLs and some will come from the NRL. Seems pretty sensible to me.

 

[marv]

These are just examples of course but the point stands - France is relatively untapped and chances are there are more players there who can become SL players of the ilk of Bosc, Ferriol, Mounic etc.

But you could say exactly the same thing about young players in NL1, give the players a chance, as your advocating we do to the French and they will become SL quality.

Also as we have seen over the last few years the relegated side has walked NL1 due to having the infrastructure of a SL club one could argue we will see the same with Salford this year like we saw Cas win 100-0 last year, so while they may be in a limbo of not good enough for SL but too good for NL1 they would surely be better served in SL?

as long as there is a dozen or so French players capable of playing SL in the next couple of years it doesn't matter if the rest of the players in the LER are under 12 standard

Im not sure i fully understand what your saying here, if a SL side needs 25-30 players are you saying that only 12 of Toulouse 25-30 need to be/will be French, meaning they would have around 12-17 imports?

Or are you saying that with the best juniors coming through Toulouse system coupled with players like Greseque and Fellous who certainly have the talent (maybe not the desire or commitment) to play in SL they could have enough players to do what Catalans are doing with maybe 7-8 imports?

 

[dallymessenger]

Of course I get Exited when I hear these kind of things about expansion and possible potential Dally, but I agree with Langpark, Its hearsay and supposition as most business plans are, Its impossible to know what is going to happen, Im not saying these guys havent done their homework, but its a huge gamble.

On a much smaller scale I know, but just an example from personal experience. Less than four years ago I did my own business plan, it was one of the most difficult parts of building my fledgling business, give me the 13 hour days over writing that thing again anyday!
Thankfully things went well for me and exeeded the plan, but there were times it could have so easily gone the other way and the truth behind it was....I really didnt know how things were going to pan out, but had to put a plan together to keep the bank happy.




Well for starts you can look at where they finish come the end of the season rather than Rd12!

And maybe the fact that the coach has just left and 15 players fall off contract at the end of the year, suggests there is walking for French RL to do before it can be running.

well you tell the RFL they are wrong to look at business plan because that is part of the franchise criteria.

the difference between your business and toulose is they will have guaranteed money already available. provided by the coucil and also business. this money will ensure a strong & competitive team

the franchise decisions will be made in a couple of months, not the end of SL so form at the moment makes toulose look stronger.

 

[dallymessenger]

Dont patronise people Dally, anyone with the slightest intrest in French RL knows who Cliff is and I respect his knowledge and opinion on the French game over almost anyone.

It doesnt change my opinion that this time is too soon for Toulouse, there just simply isnt the players to make it viable ATM.

If you watch the LER highlights you will know the standard is shocking, let the LER become stronger then the players pulled out for SL will have a better chance of success

if you respect spracklens opinions, then he has said there are enough players in france for toulose and the time is right now.

ill leave it for you to square those 2 comments

 

[marv]

if you respect spracklens opinions, then he has said there are enough players in france for toulose and the time is right now.

ill leave it for you to square those 2 comments

I respect it but I dont have to agree with it Dally, just like I respect your opinion but dont agree with it.
I feel we would be better served bringing the number of imports in Catalans team down further before adding another French team, I dont see how it benfits French RL to have two teams full of squad players with Australians in the key positions they will need to fill if they are to keep up with the big 3 come quad nations time.

 

[screeny]

I respect it but I dont have to agree with it Dally, just like I respect your opinion but dont agree with it.
I feel we would be better served bringing the number of imports in Catalans team down further before adding another French team, I dont see how it benfits French RL to have two teams full of squad players with Australians in the key positions they will need to fill if they are to keep up with the big 3 come quad nations time.

You keep saying 'I don't see how it'll benefit French RL' or words to that effect, as well as saying 'what's the point of having two struggling clubs' or words to that effect.

Firstly, on this thread I ventured forth a clear explanation of why two clubs will benefit French RL strategically. If you choose not to see this that's up to you.

Secondly, who says the club(s) is/are going to struggle?

Your way - bringing imports down in Les Cats first - is too slow when we have the opportunity to accelerate the growth of the game in France massively with another SL franchise.

As you seem to be solely worried about the playing ranks being French, isn't it obvious that having more French players exposed to SL will benefit the French national team. Bosc wasn't playing SL, now he is. He's a half. Enter Toulouse and you've doubled the opportunities for French playmakers to experience the highest level.

As you said to DM above, it's your opinion and I respect it, but I feel you're wrong in a strategic sense.

 

[East Coast Tiger]

But you could say exactly the same thing about young players in NL1, give the players a chance, as your advocating we do to the French and they will become SL quality.

Also as we have seen over the last few years the relegated side has walked NL1 due to having the infrastructure of a SL club one could argue we will see the same with Salford this year like we saw Cas win 100-0 last year, so while they may be in a limbo of not good enough for SL but too good for NL1 they would surely be better served in SL?

That's what I'm saying though. There are players in NL1 who could play SL if given the chance, of course there is. That's why one of the new SL clubs will be from England and the increase in clubs there will neccessitate more recruitment from the NLs. But there is potential for more SL players in France too. But without a second French club there is little hope of these players getting a run in SL. Thus the need for Toulouse.

Im not sure i fully understand what your saying here, if a SL side needs 25-30 players are you saying that only 12 of Toulouse 25-30 need to be/will be French, meaning they would have around 12-17 imports?

Or are you saying that with the best juniors coming through Toulouse system coupled with players like Greseque and Fellous who certainly have the talent (maybe not the desire or commitment) to play in SL they could have enough players to do what Catalans are doing with maybe 7-8 imports?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. If Toulouse can sign 10 or 12 top French players from the LER like Greseque, Anselme, Fellous (he's already there), Borlin etc, throw in 7 or 8 NRL players and fill the rest of the squad with young players who have the potential to play regularly in two or three years, bearing in mind they will still have a team in the LER, then they will have a squad to take on SL. It might not be a world-beating squad straight away but the advantage of the franchised league is the extra time to develop and Toulouse will be no worse off than the NL club(s) that are also promoted.