Toulouse Franchise bid for SL

[marv]

Firstly, on this thread I ventured forth a clear explanation of why two clubs will benefit French RL strategically. If you choose not to see this that's up to you.

No you didnt you offered what you think might happen based largely on the success of Les Catalans, I think there is only so much growth that can be accheived before reching a plateau.

Secondly, who says the club(s) is/are going to struggle?

I do its a message board its my opinion!
You dont have to be a genious to see that despite currently running a magnificent second Les Catalans have struggled to finish higher than 10th is that not struggling?

Some people are saying we should discount Wakefeild because they have not finished above 10th in however many years.

Your way - bringing imports down in Les Cats first - is too slow when we have the opportunity to accelerate the growth of the game in France massively with another SL franchise.

It could also make the game spectcuarly implode, whereas my way would ensure, admittedly slow but steady growth for the one team we have and must cherish, my biggest, possibly my only worry is the health of Les Catalans, maybe I'm blinkered because I have grown a huge soft spot for the Dragons.

As you seem to be solely worried about the playing ranks being French, isn't it obvious that having more French players exposed to SL will benefit the French national team.

Can i ask a question Screeny, Where so you live?

I live in the heartlands and despite some Heartland teams having similar numbers import-wise to Catalans they are derided as "a team of Aussies" I am sick of defending them as not so, but realise that they rely too much on Australian players and will need to lower that if they are to be playing by the same quota rules as the other clubs and I have no reason to belive why they wouldnt be.

Bosc wasn't playing SL, now he is. He's a half.

You havent seemed to ask yourself why he got his opportunity?

He is playing halfs because Mick potter gave him the chance to do so when they couldnt get an import in to fill the halfs spot, so again you have almost given me ammo for my opinion that Les Catalans need to bring their imports down allowing more French players like Bosc to fill key postions.

As you said to DM above, it's your opinion and I respect it, but I feel you're wrong in a strategic sense.

Ditto mate

 

[dallymessenger]

I respect it but I dont have to agree with it Dally, just like I respect your opinion but dont agree with it.
I feel we would be better served bringing the number of imports in Catalans team down further before adding another French team, I dont see how it benfits French RL to have two teams full of squad players with Australians in the key positions they will need to fill if they are to keep up with the big 3 come quad nations time.

fair enough

i dont agree lets leave it at that.

 

[screeny]

No you didnt you offered what you think might happen based largely on the success of Les Catalans, I think there is only so much growth that can be accheived before reching a plateau.


I do its a message board its my opinion!
You dont have to be a genious to see that despite currently running a magnificent second Les Catalans have struggled to finish higher than 10th is that not struggling?

Some people are saying we should discount Wakefeild because they have not finished above 10th in however many years.



It could also make the game spectcuarly implode, whereas my way would ensure, admittedly slow but steady growth for the one team we have and must cherish, my biggest, possibly my only worry is the health of Les Catalans, maybe I'm blinkered because I have grown a huge soft spot for the Dragons.




Can i ask a question Screeny, Where so you live?

I live in the heartlands and despite some Heartland teams having similar numbers import-wise to Catalans they are derided as "a team of Aussies" I am sick of defending them as not so, but realise that they rely too much on Australian players and will need to lower that if they are to be playing by the same quota rules as the other clubs and I have no reason to belive why they wouldnt be.


You havent seemed to ask yourself why he got his opportunity?

He is playing halfs because Mick potter gave him the chance to do so when they couldnt get an import in to fill the halfs spot, so again you have almost given me ammo for my opinion that Les Catalans need to bring their imports down allowing more French players like Bosc to fill key postions.


Ditto mate

But dismissing the points I made earlier - about a 2nd SL team leading to more media, more youths, more clubs, more money in France, and a stronger French national team, then repeating that cycle ad nauseum - is simply dismissing natural growth, surely? By that I mean that it is simply natural that these effects will occur with a second SL franchise in France. It has been empirically proven with les Cats - the FFRXIII admit the Les Cats factor has been responsible for underpinnign the growth in the game over the last two years - so a second team will, in simplistic terms, double that growth.

Is 10th struggling you ask? Well, again, this is where I think you're missing the point. I wouldn't say 10th is struggling, or 12th, when you look at it from a strategic perspective. Running 10th, were Les Cats helping to increase the popularity of RL, bring in more media, more sponsors, more kids, improving French RL players, some of whom will play for France internationally etc etc.? So therefore, using that gauge, 10th, or 12th, or even 14th would not be considered struggling. That's franchising for you, and I love it as it will help RL spread.

Who cares what a bunch of whingers say about 'a team of Aussies'. I don't. I care about the peripheral effect on French RL, and therefore global RL. I'd rather have a quality Toulouse SL franchise with over 60% imports that is assisting RL strategically than no Toulouse franchise at all, as that wouldn't be assisting French RL at all.

As for Bosc...he's playing a key position in SL. if Toulouse were in the chances for another French playmaker to play SL would be doubled, no matter how these chances arise.

And I live in London, but spend most of my time working in the Mid East.

 

[dallymessenger]

It could also make the game spectcuarly implode, whereas my way would ensure, admittedly slow but steady growth for the one team we have and must cherish, my biggest, possibly my only worry is the health of Les Catalans, maybe I'm blinkered because I have grown a huge soft spot for the Dragons.

one thing though, Les Cats have said they support toulose entry into SL.

they are far enough away to not have to share crowds. indeed toulose is such a large city (pop. 1.5 million) that the additional media and business opportunities of a toulose franchise will help Les Cats by bringing more money into the game.

when SL started there were supposed to be 2 French SL teams in there. 2009 might be 14 years too late, but better than never.

and apparently the sponsorship toulose have now is better than when les cats got in

 

[marv]

But dismissing the points I made earlier - about a 2nd SL team leading to more media, more youths, more clubs, more money in France, and a stronger French national team, then repeating that cycle ad nauseum - is simply dismissing natural growth, surely? By that I mean that it is simply natural that these effects will occur with a second SL franchise in France. It has been empirically proven with les Cats - the FFRXIII admit the Les Cats factor has been responsible for underpinnign the growth in the game over the last two years.

I didnt dismiss them, I took them on board and listened to them I just think there is limited growth in a country which is dominated by other sports.
As I said Its possible that the growth of French RL will reach a certain level and stay there or there abouts.

Your being naive suggesting exactly the same thing will happen again.

You can say I'm dismissing facts or dismissing "natural growth" but thats not true, Im just not as optimistic about the whole thing as you seem to be.

so a second team will, in simplistic terms, double that growth.

I could double the size of my Garage tomorrow but the chances are I wouldnt have double the work to make it pay, so if I did that It would be a huge gamble, same apply's here.

Is 10th struggling you ask? Well, again, this is where I think you're missing the point. I wouldn't say 10th is struggling, or 12th, when you look at it from a strategic perspective. Running 10th, were Les Cats helping to increase the popularity of RL, bring in more media, more sponsors, more kids, improving French RL players, some of whom will play for France internationally etc etc.? So therefore, using that gauge, 10th, or 12th, or even 14th would not be considered struggling.

Well whats the point in even discussing these matters If you put the kind of spin on your own twisted opinion that suggests a team running in the bottom two is a success :roll:

Lets have two teams running in the bottom two that will bring the fans out in their droves.

Who cares what a bunch of whingers say about 'a team of Aussies'. I don't.

I do, I live amogst them, and it pisses me off.

I care about the peripheral effect on French RL, and therefore global RL. I'd rather have a quality Toulouse SL franchise with over 60% imports that is assisting RL strategically than no Toulouse franchise at all, as that wouldn't be assisting French RL at all.

The point in having a French team is for it to produce quality French players not just squad players.

I just dont see how a team, 60% of it not eligible for that countrys national team is helping anything.

As for Bosc...he's playing a key position in SL. if Toulouse were in the chances for another French playmaker to play SL would be doubled, no matter how these chances arise.

No they wouldnt because the Key positions are all filled by Australians and Bosc's would have been if they could have found a replacement for Stacey Jones, Bosc hardly set the world alight in his forst two seasons, with the responsibiltiy on his shoulders he has matured into a fine player, with less imports at Les Catalans more players will be allowed to do the same.

 

[marv]

one thing though, Les Cats have said they support toulose entry into SL.

When did I say they didnt?

they are far enough away to not have to share crowds. indeed toulose is such a large city (pop. 1.5 million) that the additional media and business opportunities of a toulose franchise will help Les Cats by bringing more money into the game.

But they will share some supporters, I know for a fact there is more than one Catalans supporters group in the Toulouse area

when SL started there were supposed to be 2 French SL teams in there. 2009 might be 14 years too late, but better than never.

When SL started we were supposed to have a Cumbrian side, a Calder side and a South Yorkshire side, along with flights of fancy as far afield as Rome

Come on Dally

and apparently the sponsorship toulose have now is better than when les cats got in

I hear this is the case also, like you say come June/July if there application is one of the best then they will be in the party and I for one will not bear any grudges or let my personal opionon get in the way of what should be the right decision for the game and I will wish them luck.

Same for Celtic, Widnes or Salford or............ Featherstone :lol:

 

[marv]

fair enough

i dont agree lets leave it at that.

Maybe the three of us should heed this advice

 

[screeny]

Hmmmn...."twisted opinion" eh, that's quite rude.

So you think a team that is running, let's say, dead last in SL, but in doing so is increasing the interest in French RL, increasing the sponsorship € in the game, the number of clubs and juniors and open age players, and exposing more French players to fulltime RL is a strategic failure?

The distinction needs to be made between the team/squad, which, in the above example, is indeed failing, and the club, which is succeeding.

 

[dallymessenger]

When did I say they didnt?


But they will share some supporters, I know for a fact there is more than one Catalans supporters group in the Toulouse area



When SL started we were supposed to have a Cumbrian side, a Calder side and a South Yorkshire side, along with flights of fancy as far afield as Rome

Come on Dally



I hear this is the case also, like you say come June/July if there application is one of the best then they will be in the party and I for one will not bear any grudges or let my personal opionon get in the way of what should be the right decision for the game and I will wish them luck.

Same for Celtic, Widnes or Salford or............ Featherstone :lol:

there was a cumbrian side in SL initially, it went broke.

werent sheffield in there too at one stage, thats your south yorkshire side.

calder - youve got cas and wakey there today

salford, widnes, Crusaders and Toulose are clearly the only realistic extra clubs outside of the current 12 from SL.

my guess is one current SL club will miss out and 3 from the new clubs will get in.

salford and crusaders would be my guess and toulose / widnes toss a coin job

 

[marv]

there was a cumbrian side in SL initially, it went broke.

werent sheffield in there too at one stage, thats your south yorkshire side.

calder - youve got cas and wakey there today

I know this Dally, I was refering to mergers of Cumbrian, South Yorkshire and Calder clubs, your obviously not that daft not to know what I'm talking about.
These mergers never happened, despite them possibly being the best way of the clubs in question gaining a SL spot, anyway thats another arguament.

salford, widnes, Crusaders and Toulose are clearly the only realistic extra clubs outside of the current 12 from SL.

my guess is one current SL club will miss out and 3 from the new clubs will get in.

salford and crusaders would be my guess and toulose / widnes toss a coin job

I would certainly agree with that, for the record which club do you think will miss out from the current 12?

I think it would be tough on whichever club misses out from the current 12 but personally I would pick Widnes/Salford/Celtic over Wakefield.

 

[marv]

Hmmmn...."twisted opinion" eh, that's quite rude.

So you think a team that is running, let's say, dead last in SL, but in doing so is increasing the interest in French RL, increasing the sponsorship € in the game, the number of clubs and juniors and open age players, and exposing more French players to fulltime RL is a strategic failure?

Again your opinion is not allowing you to see beyond your nose, sure a new team will have a huge effect AT FIRST, if that side was running last do you think the fans and sponsors would keep going along IF that side continued to finish last or second last, Crowds and finances at the clubs traditionally in the bottom of any league shows you those crowds are generally poor.

So again the interest whilst initially being good, if the side(s) are not sucessful people wont go and watch them for ever.

The distinction needs to be made between the team/squad, which, in the above example, is indeed failing, and the club, which is succeeding.

When did I say that the Catalans club wasnt succeeding?

What I am saying is I dont bwelive that another French club will see an Identical boom to the Catalans one, It could be more for all I know but I feel the likleyhood is it will be less as the initial "boom time" has happened, what the FFR13 and RFL should be doing is making sure the Catalans club continues in its success, and that the LER makes moves to improve the quality of its growing player pool.

 

[screeny]

Again your opinion is not allowing you to see beyond your nose, sure a new team will have a huge effect AT FIRST, if that side was running last do you think the fans and sponsors would keep going along IF that side continued to finish last or second last, Crowds and finances at the clubs traditionally in the bottom of any league shows you those crowds are generally poor.

So again the interest whilst initially being good, if the side(s) are not sucessful people wont go and watch them for ever.


When did I say that the Catalans club wasnt succeeding?

What I am saying is I dont bwelive that another French club will see an Identical boom to the Catalans one, It could be more for all I know but I feel the likleyhood is it will be less as the initial "boom time" has happened, what the FFR13 and RFL should be doing is making sure the Catalans club continues in its success, and that the LER makes moves to improve the quality of its growing player pool.

I didn't mean Les Cats, I meant the hypothetical second side we're discussing. If it was running dead last and still strengthening French RL then it would be a success as a club, but a failure as a (current) squad.

The beauty of franchising is that finances should be in order to keep underperforming squads' clubs on the rails through, primarily, TV money that is accrued through the value of the property, which in this case will be a stronger RL due to more international/regional appeal.

I agree with your sentiments about ensuring Les Cats continue growing and LER continues producing good players, but I feel that the first point will be taken care of by the Catalans management and the second will be enhanced by the presence of a second SL club in France.

 

[dallymessenger]

I know this Dally, I was refering to mergers of Cumbrian, South Yorkshire and Calder clubs, your obviously not that daft not to know what I'm talking about.
These mergers never happened, despite them possibly being the best way of the clubs in question gaining a SL spot, anyway thats another arguament.




I would certainly agree with that, for the record which club do you think will miss out from the current 12?

I think it would be tough on whichever club misses out from the current 12 but personally I would pick Widnes/Salford/Celtic over Wakefield.

one out of cas / wakey


salford, crusaders and toulose to be in

 

[marv]

I didn't mean Les Cats, I meant the hypothetical second side we're discussing. If it was running dead last and still strengthening French RL then it would be a success as a club, but a failure as a (current) squad.

But thats my point ANY side running last and that continues to run last/2nd last Is not going to be a success, nobody wants to see a losing side, this is proven by certain Soccer clubs attendances going up because they have been releagted to a lower division, therefore winning more games in that division, I think this has been the case at Leeds Utd.

People want to see a winning side, people wont turn up forever to watch a side get beat, then what?

The beauty of franchising is that finances should be in order to keep underperforming squads' clubs on the rails through, primarily, TV money that is accrued through the value of the property, which in this case will be a stronger RL due to more international/regional appeal.

This is more of an opinion than anything else, we dont know that this will happen, we dont know the TV money will go up and we dont know if franchising will help bring RL to a wider market.

I agree with your sentiments about ensuring Les Cats continue growing and LER continues producing good players, but I feel that the first point will be taken care of by the Catalans management and the second will be enhanced by the presence of a second SL club in France.

I think this is where you an I will continue to disagree, I disagree that having Toulouse would directly benefit the LER as it stands now, with another French team in your going to be looking at taking another 15-20 players out of the LER.

From what I gather and from what I have heard the quality of player in the LER has gone down, Its hard to say as theres little info about the LER thinking logically there are at least 20 players who were playing in that league now are not.

In time I'm sure the standards will rise, with the increase in junior development must surely means LER clubs wil have more players to choose from, maybe thats a few years off, Like I feel Toulouse should be.

 

[AlbertRosenfeld]

The debate has overlooked the factor of rugby union converts improving the French player capacity and perhaps the profile of Toulouse.

Les Catalans have recruited three players that I know of from the rugby union club USAP. Two of these, Gossard and Griffi, are now at Super League standard and have had good games in Super League.

Expect the same thing to happen at Toulouse, except more so because of the greater rugby player pool in the Toulouse metropolitan area. Rugby union recruitment after the franchise is announced may well maintain the French component at the same level as Les Catalans now have.

Let us not forget that Toulouse does have some French talent in its own ranks already: Fellous, Villegas, Planas, Houles and Gay come to mind. Extracting the cream of the other teams in LER -- plus a couple of recruits from Les Catalans, and two or three rugby union players -- should enable them to field twenty good French players. So what if they run last in their first year? The idea is that they should gradually improve to be around mid table after three years. Les Catalans are already there after three years.

The idea that Toulouse will be "more ready" in three years time than now is just silly. Performance on the field in LER is not the issue for "being ready." The Toulouse application for 2009 has massive local government backing and apparently some corporate backing. There is no reason to believe that its backing will be greater in three years. It may be less because of the demoralisation that a second rejection this year (after a first rejection in 2005) will cause.

 

[AlbertRosenfeld]

A separate point about the competition for franchises:

People assume that the current 12 Super League clubs are all guaranteed a franchsie in 2009. That is not so. They have to pass the crtieria for franchise admission more carefully than the non-SL clubs.

Wakefield has a poor application. They are weak in the criteria of stadium and junior development. Moreover their crowds are unimpressive, and are likely to remain so absent a modertn stadium.

Plus the Super League has too many clubs in Yorkshire (7), especially west Yorkshire (5).

Of the non Yorkshire applicants Leigh has no chance because it is an appendage of Wigan and has little in the way of financial and population base. Widnes has too many financial questions raised by its recent bankruptcy and its weak crowds to be a reliable franchise bid for 2009.

A sensible resoultion in my opinion would be to have Salford replace Wakefield of the current 12, and add Toulouse and Celtic Crusaders to make 14.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

A separate point about the competition for franchises:

People assume that the current 12 Super League clubs are all guaranteed a franchsie in 2009. That is not so. They have to pass the crtieria for franchise admission more carefully than the non-SL clubs.

Wakefield has a poor application. They are weak in the criteria of stadium and junior development. Moreover their crowds are unimpressive, and are likely to remain so absent a modertn stadium.

Plus the Super League has too many clubs in Yorkshire (7), especially west Yorkshire (5).

Of the non Yorkshire applicants Leigh has no chance because it is an appendage of Wigan and has little in the way of financial and population base. Widnes has too many financial questions raised by its recent bankruptcy and its weak crowds to be a reliable franchise bid for 2009.

A sensible resoultion in my opinion would be to have Salford replace Wakefield of the current 12, and add Toulouse and Celtic Crusaders to make 14.

You didn't mention Cas, IMO they are as vulnerable as wakey, but wakey seem to be getting the crowds in this year, I'd say they would be stronger than Cas.

And Widnes would be a decent place to have a team, they have a decent stadium, they have a decent fan base, they are known in the RL world and they have good juniors.

 

[dallymessenger]

The debate has overlooked the factor of rugby union converts improving the French player capacity and perhaps the profile of Toulouse.

Les Catalans have recruited three players that I know of from the rugby union club USAP. Two of these, Gossard and Griffi, are now at Super League standard and have had good games in Super League.

Expect the same thing to happen at Toulouse, except more so because of the greater rugby player pool in the Toulouse metropolitan area. Rugby union recruitment after the franchise is announced may well maintain the French component at the same level as Les Catalans now have.

Let us not forget that Toulouse does have some French talent in its own ranks already: Fellous, Villegas, Planas, Houles and Gay come to mind. Extracting the cream of the other teams in LER -- plus a couple of recruits from Les Catalans, and two or three rugby union players -- should enable them to field twenty good French players. So what if they run last in their first year? The idea is that they should gradually improve to be around mid table after three years. Les Catalans are already there after three years.

The idea that Toulouse will be "more ready" in three years time than now is just silly. Performance on the field in LER is not the issue for "being ready." The Toulouse application for 2009 has massive local government backing and apparently some corporate backing. There is no reason to believe that its backing will be greater in three years. It may be less because of the demoralisation that a second rejection this year (after a first rejection in 2005) will cause.

one poster has said hes heard rumours that toulose are no chance.

cliff spracklen thinks if the RFL do their job properly they must get in, on meeting the criteria quite well.

im worried that rumours that toulose wont be in have already been made.

heard anything along these lines?

 

[dallymessenger]

A separate point about the competition for franchises:

People assume that the current 12 Super League clubs are all guaranteed a franchsie in 2009. That is not so. They have to pass the crtieria for franchise admission more carefully than the non-SL clubs.

Wakefield has a poor application. They are weak in the criteria of stadium and junior development. Moreover their crowds are unimpressive, and are likely to remain so absent a modertn stadium.

Plus the Super League has too many clubs in Yorkshire (7), especially west Yorkshire (5).

Of the non Yorkshire applicants Leigh has no chance because it is an appendage of Wigan and has little in the way of financial and population base. Widnes has too many financial questions raised by its recent bankruptcy and its weak crowds to be a reliable franchise bid for 2009.

A sensible resoultion in my opinion would be to have Salford replace Wakefield of the current 12, and add Toulouse and Celtic Crusaders to make 14.

to be fair to wakey their crowds at 8000 so far this year are quite good in a dump.

thought their proposed new ground is years away.

Cas ground proposal is much closer to getting done, with just the finances mainly to sort out i think. but cas has a small population whilst wakey is a city. tough call.

 

[dallymessenger]

You didn't mention Cas, IMO they are as vulnerable as wakey, but wakey seem to be getting the crowds in this year, I'd say they would be stronger than Cas.

And Widnes would be a decent place to have a team, they have a decent stadium, they have a decent fan base, they are known in the RL world and they have good juniors.

lots of rumours that widnes will get in and displace an existing SL side.

the population of widnes and runcorn is around 140,000 so not too bad.

warrington close by though.

salford and crusaders are ahead of them i reckon.

then if either widnes / toulose get in either wakey / cas miss out

id prefer toulose