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Watmough signing shades of Kennedy in ‘05

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
85,094
So you're saying Arthur has no idea? f**k, we just re-signed him!

Yeah that's exactly what I said:

Because our entire attacking philosophy was (wisely) about getting the ball in Hayne's hands.

Everything has an opportunity cost. Giving the ball to Hayne means you can't use him as a decoy, but it also means you can't give it to Sandow, Norman, Hopoate or one of the forwards, who are probably all less heavily marked than Hayne, and even with him gone they will still all be less heavily marked than he was.
 
Messages
42,876
They don't need to do it as well as Hayne, they just need to be able to do it often enough against a defence that is less able to anticipate what we are going to do.

And did I mention that our improved forward pack will have opposition defences in disarray more often than it has in recent years? That's really the key. The opportunity for our existing players to step into Hayne's vacant space is only an opportunity if they take it. The improved go forward will make it easier for them when they do.



I don't need to present both sides of the argument. We know we've lost a great player - the best I've ever seen - and if we'd only lost him without replacing him then we would have suffered only a net loss.

Bear in mind our defence will be much improved as well, right across the park. Even having a worse defensive fullback won't see us concede as many points.

Going to Hayne a bit less often would have made us more unpredictable. If you get the ratio right, I don't see that a team with Hayne is inherently more predictable than a team without him. And yes, our forwards should be a bit better if we spend more money on them, making the backs' job easier. But that's really a question of how much you spend on backs vs forwards, not any one player.

The better defence across the park has a good deal of merit.
 
Messages
42,876
Yeah that's exactly what I said:



Everything has an opportunity cost. Giving the ball to Hayne means you can't use him as a decoy, but it also means you can't give it to Sandow, Norman, Hopoate or one of the forwards, who are probably all less heavily marked than Hayne, and even with him gone they will still all be less heavily marked than he was.
I was just paraphrasing. :D

But I was making the point about going to Hayne too often.
 
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19,173
Thanks, i think :eek:


My therapist thinks i am a negative Nancy as well and that my problems stem from decades of mental anguish and torture from supporting the Parramatta Eels.

No worries mate.;-)

FWIW, you may well turn out to be right, but I think we'll be pretty solid next year. And I'm pretty sure that it will come to pass that at least one of our signings will, in retrospect, look like a bad decision....but I couldn't tell you now who that will be.
 

hineyrulz

Post Whore
Messages
148,901
Personally, I agree with you.

I know we didn't have a wealth of choice, but Watmough aside, our signings are less than inspiring - even more so when factoring in that the best player on the planet (and the sole source for the vast majority of our points-scoring ability) left us.

If people feel positive, then I am happy for them - but I am concerned about our immediate onfield future, and given the years of shit this club has served us over the years, can you blame me?
Not at all mate, they are my feelings as well. I know you love this club to bits as do I. Just because we question decisions and are less then pleased with recruiting doesn't mean we don't want the club to have a big year and challenge for a top 4 spot.
 

Eelementary

Post Whore
Messages
56,227
Not at all mate, they are my feelings as well. I know you love this club to bits as do I. Just because we question decisions and are less then pleased with recruiting doesn't mean we don't want the club to have a big year and challenge for a top 4 spot.

Exactly right, mate!
 

Pazza

First Grade
Messages
8,624
Peats and Watmough playing tight is going to give us a defensive presence we haven't seen since Cayless and Hindmarsh were playing together.
 

lingard

Coach
Messages
11,215
In theory, you're correct.

But I'm not sure I have the same faith as you do - this team has been a "give it to Hayne" team for years. I worry about their ability to get past this and have someone else fill his role.

Besides - a lot of the breaks and tries set up by Hayne didn't come from gameplanning, but rather through his sheer brilliance.


I think we'll miss Hayne more than Pou thinks we will. His try-saving, last line of defence will be sorely missed, for example. But, if I could choose any coach to get us through the Hayne-less period, it would be Brad Arthur. He had us playing as a team for the first half of the year, and relying on Hayne far less than previous years. It wasn't until Peats and Tonga were unavailable that Hayne went back to his usual role of trying to save our arses every game.
 

lingard

Coach
Messages
11,215
Well we don't want anyone to fill that role. We want to spread the responsibility like they do in better teams.



And how many times did it need to be sheer brilliance because the defence were all over him? Plenty of times there were opportunities if the ball went away from Hayne but it just wasn't an option for us. He is the best decoy in the game.


..... and worse teams. Titans, Tigers, Canberra, St George, Newcastle - they spread the load, too, because they didn't have superstars - and it didn't get them a long way.
 

lingard

Coach
Messages
11,215
Because our entire attacking philosophy was (wisely) about getting the ball in Hayne's hands. To not give him the ball would have been to waste him.

That said, using him as a decoy could also have reaped rewards but giving it to Hayne was always the safe option.


In the first half of the year, our default philosophy in attack was for Norman to get the ball to Tonga (and then to Radradra); and for Sandow to get the ball to Hoppoate (and on to his winger). Hayne reverted to a more traditional fullback role under Arthur's coaching philosophy.
 

Obscene Assassin

First Grade
Messages
6,085
I think we'll miss Hayne more than Pou thinks we will. His try-saving, last line of defence will be sorely missed, for example.

Now that we have stronger forwards and a stronger defence we should see less breaks being made. We've got a starch defensive line across the forwards and if what I think is the team that Arthur will pick I wouldn't be able to name one player that doesn't lead with the shoulder and is capable of tackling 1v1.
 

Eelementary

Post Whore
Messages
56,227
I think we'll miss Hayne more than Pou thinks we will. His try-saving, last line of defence will be sorely missed, for example. But, if I could choose any coach to get us through the Hayne-less period, it would be Brad Arthur. He had us playing as a team for the first half of the year, and relying on Hayne far less than previous years. It wasn't until Peats and Tonga were unavailable that Hayne went back to his usual role of trying to save our arses every game.

I back Arthur, but I worry about the playing group's ability to mentally adjust to life after Hayne.

Peats and Watmough will help enormously, but I am not overly confudent...
 

themule

Juniors
Messages
87
When the Sea Eagles signed veteran forward Ben Kennedy in 2004, eyebrows were raised. By the time season 2005 would kick off, Kennedy would be in the twilight of his career, the 31-year old had achieved all the game had to offer by representing his state and country and winning a premiership with the Newcastle Knights. Could he maintain that form for Manly? The critics questioned his age, motivation and injury history.

The club was fresh off the Northern Eagles disaster that tarnished an otherwise successful history. Manly had missed the finals every year since 1998, after an otherwise successful period prior to that, winning a premiership every decade since their arrival in the competition. It was meant to be one final pay packet for Kennedy before he retired, however it turned out to be much more than that, kick starting the best (under the salary cap) dynasty in the modern NRL era.

Due to Kennedy?s experience and knowledge of a winning culture, he was given the captaincy for season 2005, largely because Manly were devoid of other options. The doubts over his signature quickly disappeared as he led the Sea Eagles back to finals for the first time since 1998. His style of play brushed off on a host of young Sea Eagles (particularly the forward pack), which paved the way for a dominant period in the clubs history. The Sea Eagles have not missed the finals since 2005.

One young forward in particular benefitted from the experience Kennedy provided. The 22-year-old raw talent Anthony Watmough represented NSW for the first time that year, elevating his game to a new level as he achieved a status as one of the games elite forwards. He has gone on to carve an illustrious career and is seen as a key figure in the Manly dynasty.

Fast-forward almost 10 years to the day and the Parramatta Eels have officially announced the signing of a 31-year-old, premiership winning, NSW and Australia representative back rower, Anthony Watmough.

Watmough is leaving behind a winning culture probably considered the best in the last decade (similar to Newcastle from 2000-2004), finals appearances every season, two premierships, a glut of big game results, the Manly Sea Eagles have best epitomized how to grind out results in the modern era. The Parramatta Eels are perhaps the exact opposite of Manly, a club famous for creating the ?how to lose games? blueprint. If you take away a miracle run of form in 2009, the Eels haven?t made the finals since 2007. Instability and mediocrity has plagued the club to the point where a 10th place finished in 2014 was considered ?acceptable?.

Watmough is walking into the exact situation Kennedy did in 2005, a club with a proud history going through perhaps it?s darkest ever days. Like Kennedy, Watmough will have a young and talented squad to work with and will be led by a coach with one season of NRL under his belt looking to make a name for himself. Des Hasler?s first season as an NRL coach was 2004, the year before Kennedy arrived.

Parramatta fans need see the parallels between the two, and acknowledge this as one of the clubs better signings in the last few years. They also need to realise they may in fact be better off in the long run without Jarryd Hayne. The club needs balance, discipline, aggression and footballing smarts, they don?t need flashy plays and try celebrations once a month.

Season 2015 will forever mark the start of the post Hayne era, whether he returns or not shouldn?t be relevant for Eels fans. If the club is to move forward, it needs guys like Watmough to lead the way into the future. Kennedy was well retired by the time Manly won the 2008 premiership, but some say his influence on the clubs culture started it all. Young players like Jamie Lyon, Steve Matai, Jason King, Brett and Glenn Stewart and of course Watmough all benefited from him being at the club and the led the Manly dynasty for the next decade.

Parramatta probably won?t win a competition in 2015, they might not win one in 2016 either, but that?s not to say the club isn?t moving in the right direction. There?s enough evidence to suggest the dark days are in fact over for Parramatta, and when that next competition is won, there?s a high chance the success will be traced back to the signing of Anthony Watmough.

Who knows? In 2024 we might be talking about a guy like Tepai Moeroa moving on as a 31-year-old to help a struggling club. By then, he might value the experience he gained from Watmough as the key to his form throughout the Eels dynasty of 2016 onwards, helping him develop into an elite back rower.

It isn?t impossible Eels fans; in 2004 nobody predicted Watmough?s rise would coincide with a Manly dynasty, netting two competitions. Hayne may be gone, but your clubs culture is changing, dare to dream.

The big problem is that the signing of dropmough doesn't go anywhere near replacing the loss of Hayne who was probably the best player in the NRL last year.
 

themule

Juniors
Messages
87
Anthony Watmough has been an absolute champion player. My problem with us signing him is his age and the number of NRL games he's played. Nearly 300 first grade games with Manly. That's a hell of a lot. And, if he plays consistently for the next four years it will be 400 games. Has anyone ever even done that before? I have a fear that we may not get value out of him - either through injury or a drop in form due to aging. I hope I'm allowed to voice these concerns without: 1. being thought of as a death rider, and 2. Being seen as knocking the coach's decision to purchase him (which is apparently not permitted).

Spot on. Anyone who knows Watmough knows that his body is stuffed from nearly 300 games of NRL.

Manly knew had has one more season of NRL standard in him and then he will be on the downhill slide after this.

He left manly because he wanted a 4 year deal and Manly reluctantly only offered him another 2 years. He knows this is his last chance to earn big money and he has no career after football.

Anyone who does interviews with Weidler has no credability
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
85,094
How sour are the grapes today! :lol:

If you're so happy he's gone why are you here thrashing in rage? f**k off you whinger.
 

EelsFan05

Bench
Messages
2,795
How sour are the grapes today! :lol:

If you're so happy he's gone why are you here thrashing in rage? f**k off you whinger.

Exactly. Enjoy Mateo. He's nearly the same age as Watmough and has achieved nothing. They are glad Watmough is gone because he makes so many errors. They can't have watched many of Feleti's games.
 

Noise

Coach
Messages
17,303
And the top blokes at manly are still paying watmough's rep bonuses that they owe him.
 
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