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What makes Schumacher so good?

Knightmare

Coach
Messages
10,716
j1im2uda63j21.jpg
 

hrundi99

First Grade
Messages
8,414

Schumacher is very talented...talented enough to justify being in the best or close to best car at any point.

His stats are very impressive.

The problem, however, is that in his era, he hasn't really had anyone with similar talent to compete with. He has worked hards but at the same time he has had a bit of a rails run. He has used questionable racing tactics at times, so his sportsmanship can be brought into question. The other issue has been his demand for clear number one status. This is fair enough as he has been the best in his time, but when its clear that each of his team mates have suffered in terms of their championship aspirations - that they are there to support Schumacher and do little else, unless Schumacher DNFs - then it is simply not fair.

I am a Senna fan. I always was and I always will be. Putting that bias aside, Senna had to compete against other greats like Prost, Piquet and Mansell. His arch enemy (Prost) was even his team mate.

His success given his quality of opposition is why he is rated by many as superior to Schumacher. If he hadn't died, there's no telling how many championships he would have won (in Schumacher's place no less).

If he hadn't died, and he and Schumacher had competed on a level playing field and Schumacher had won, then my opinion would be different.
 

Parra

Referee
Messages
24,900
The Benetton was far from the best car when Schumacher won his first two titles.

The Ferrari was far from the best car when he joined the team.

Even the Mercedes is no longer the best car based on the results toward the end of the 2009 season. It was at the start of 2009.

He is making a comeback in an era where more manufacturers are competitive than in any era in memory. We don't have the situation where only 1 or 2 teams dominate. Times are close, qualifying is crucial. F1 is a very level playing field at the moment.

He has raced plenty of top opposition. How many world champions has he raced against?

Hill
Senna
Raikkonen
Alonso
Button
Villenuve
Hakkinen
Prost
Mansell
 
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bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
Schumacher is very talented...talented enough to justify being in the best or close to best car at any point.

His stats are very impressive.

The problem, however, is that in his era, he hasn't really had anyone with similar talent to compete with. He has worked hards but at the same time he has had a bit of a rails run. He has used questionable racing tactics at times, so his sportsmanship can be brought into question. The other issue has been his demand for clear number one status. This is fair enough as he has been the best in his time, but when its clear that each of his team mates have suffered in terms of their championship aspirations - that they are there to support Schumacher and do little else, unless Schumacher DNFs - then it is simply not fair.

I am a Senna fan. I always was and I always will be. Putting that bias aside, Senna had to compete against other greats like Prost, Piquet and Mansell. His arch enemy (Prost) was even his team mate.

His success given his quality of opposition is why he is rated by many as superior to Schumacher. If he hadn't died, there's no telling how many championships he would have won (in Schumacher's place no less).

If he hadn't died, and he and Schumacher had competed on a level playing field and Schumacher had won, then my opinion would be different.

You do realise that Prost was actually more successful than Senna during the time that they spent in the same team, dont you?

Do you also remember the moaning and whinging from Senna's teammates that he was always given preferential treatment and the better equipment and attention during his successful years?

And lack of competition/dominant cars? When Mclaren won with Senna, it was pretty much a one team race, such was the cars dominance. Schumacher has one with different teams, different motors etc. Benneton had done nothing before or since Schumacher won with them. Ferrari had won nothing for years before Schumacher joined them and won. What Schumacher has been able to do in the most competive era is nothing short of astounding. I think he is already the greatest driver ever, if he wins the championship in his comeback year, i think it would make him on the same level as a Don Bradman, maybe even better.
 

Firey_Dragon

Coach
Messages
12,099
Schumacher is as good as most drivers on the course, from even the Senna days. The difference that sets him apart from most drivers on the track, is that he'll do anything to win, every race. He has no problems making contact, forcing other drivers off the track etc etc. He's basically a thug (in a good way), that most other drivers won't go that extra inch to challenge. Skill wise, he has nothing more than Raikonnen, Alonso, Hamilton, Button etc etc have. It's his attitude that made him so dominant in his prime.

Had Senna been around still Schumacher would have less trophies in his cabinet, but it certainly wouldn't be bare.
 

Knightmare

Coach
Messages
10,716
You do realise that Prost was actually more successful than Senna during the time that they spent in the same team, dont you?

Do you also remember the moaning and whinging from Senna's teammates that he was always given preferential treatment and the better equipment and attention during his successful years?

And lack of competition/dominant cars? When Mclaren won with Senna, it was pretty much a one team race, such was the cars dominance. Schumacher has one with different teams, different motors etc. Benneton had done nothing before or since Schumacher won with them. Ferrari had won nothing for years before Schumacher joined them and won. What Schumacher has been able to do in the most competive era is nothing short of astounding. I think he is already the greatest driver ever, if he wins the championship in his comeback year, i think it would make him on the same level as a Don Bradman, maybe even better.


Prost was more sucessful because he had fewer DNF's in 1988-89. In that same period, there were only 6 races Senna finished in which he didn't win. As for McLaren "dominating" it was only those same two years that they were dominant. As the 90's arrived, Ferrari and then Williams especially had cars as good as, if not better than the McLaren.

In his years at Lotus, Senna was good enough to challenge Prost/ Mansell/ Piquet for the championship, even though their cars were better. Again, reliability is what let Senna down, and in 1987 he realised that although Lotus were good enough to drive him to a few Grand Prix wins, if he wanted to be World Champion he'd have to go elsewhere. Hence signing with McLaren and the rest is history.

Remember also that in his Benetton/ Ferrari years, Schumi had Ross Brawn on board, who is no slouch when it comes to operating within Formula 1. Also interesting to note that Benetton were never involved in allegations of cheating after Schumacher left, and subsequently there were plenty in the pitlane who had their suspicions about Ferrari's operations after a certain German driver joined them...
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
Prost was more sucessful because he had fewer DNF's in 1988-89. In that same period, there were only 6 races Senna finished in which he didn't win. As for McLaren "dominating" it was only those same two years that they were dominant. As the 90's arrived, Ferrari and then Williams especially had cars as good as, if not better than the McLaren.

In his years at Lotus, Senna was good enough to challenge Prost/ Mansell/ Piquet for the championship, even though their cars were better. Again, reliability is what let Senna down, and in 1987 he realised that although Lotus were good enough to drive him to a few Grand Prix wins, if he wanted to be World Champion he'd have to go elsewhere. Hence signing with McLaren and the rest is history.

Remember also that in his Benetton/ Ferrari years, Schumi had Ross Brawn on board, who is no slouch when it comes to operating within Formula 1. Also interesting to note that Benetton were never involved in allegations of cheating after Schumacher left, and subsequently there were plenty in the pitlane who had their suspicions about Ferrari's operations after a certain German driver joined them...

Prost scored more points than Prost while at McLaren. The aim of the game is to score points and win championships. Prost did better than Senna, when they theoretically had the same equipment. Of course, that was only theoretically as Prost will say that his treatment meant that he was actually given inferior equipment and treatment to Prost, yet he still beat him. I dont see how there is any way around this.

In fairness to Senna though, Alain Prost was one of the greatest ever. Who knows, maybe he was the greatest ever and better than both Shoey and Senna. But it is ironic, that the very things that people now accuse Schoey - Roughhouse and unsportsman driving tactics, dominant equipment, etc are exactly what Senna was accused of during his prime. In fact, i can recall Prost, in particular (and it is quite chilling hindsight) continuously calling for someone to step in and settle down Senna because he would kill himself or someone else if he kept driving the way he was.

Back to topic, i think that Shoemacher is the greatest based on his record. Prost may have been more consistent, Senna a little bit faster etc. But what Shoemacher has done with so many different teams, that started off as struglling for success and ended up as world champions, and then struggled for success after he left. It really is phenomenal. MClaren was the best in the world before Senna arrived. Bennetton wasnt, neither were Ferrari, but they both were when they left. Personally, i believe the only possible explanaion is that Schu gives first class effort off the field. ie he helps assemble the best crew and developers, and he gives them the best feedback to help them build the best packages. I think this places him above and beyond anyone else i have seen. On the track he is as good as anyone, but noone else is as successful with less dominant teams than Schumacher has been.
 

Parra

Referee
Messages
24,900
Toleman were nothing and a young Senna was robbed of his maiden victory in 1984 when they stopped a wet Monaco GP and went one lap back to determine the winner.

Lotus were a team living on past glories when Senna moved to the team. They were competitive again. He earned his place in the McLaren team. Even when the engineering dominance faded his brilliance didn't. See the opening lap of the GP at Donnington in 1993 for an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t8QMyuGhdE&feature=related He was incredible in the wet. Schumacher is incredible in the wet as well. I don't think we will ever see a driver as good in qualifying as Senna. He was truly on a different level in an era where marshmallow tyres and hand grenade engines were still permitted in 1 lap qualifying specials.
 

Knightmare

Coach
Messages
10,716
I wanted to make a point about Senna and Prosts' two years together at McLaren, and that was: until 1991, the Championship was decided by your best 11 results from 16. So although Prost scored more points gross than Senna in '88, Ayrton won the title on the back of his best 11 results> Prosts' best 11 results. Also the fact he won 8 races to Prosts' 7 (should have been 9. F**king Jean Louis Schlesser).

In 1989 Senna should have been World Champion again, but Jean Marie Balestre wanted Prost to be Champion, and ensured that it ended up that way. You may think I sound like an irrational Senna fan, but one Max Mosely, in later years, stated that it was the unfair treatment of Senna that year that persuaded him to run for head of the FIA two years later.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
I wanted to make a point about Senna and Prosts' two years together at McLaren, and that was: until 1991, the Championship was decided by your best 11 results from 16. So although Prost scored more points gross than Senna in '88, Ayrton won the title on the back of his best 11 results> Prosts' best 11 results. Also the fact he won 8 races to Prosts' 7 (should have been 9. F**king Jean Louis Schlesser).

Interesting. So, under todays rules, Prost would have went 2 for 2 against Senna?

In 1989 Senna should have been World Champion again, but Jean Marie Balestre wanted Prost to be Champion, and ensured that it ended up that way. You may think I sound like an irrational Senna fan, but one Max Mosely, in later years, stated that it was the unfair treatment of Senna that year that persuaded him to run for head of the FIA two years later.

This is one absolutely amazing claim, though. I havent jogged my memory with this for ages, but my recollection of Prosts last year with Senna was that there was dislike between he and senna. He constantly moaned that Senna got preferential treatment and that Senna drove with no respect for safety and would soon kill himself or someone else. As a result of the treatment, Prost never resigned with McLaren (from memory he retired but maybe i am wrong on this).

I should indicate, incidentally, that this is not a knock on Senna, regardless of what is said and done, he was an all time great. But, when Senna won his titles (at least in the dominating years), I cannot recall a Maclaran finishing third in a race. They were that dominating. I am sure it must have happened occassionally at some tracks, but tell me how many races in the years Senna won were actually won by cars other than the McLaren and how many times were the McLarens beaten on the track. Since Senna's time the field has been evened up. In some cases, the rules were made, with a clear intention to even the field. Yet in this thread we have seen people argue that Schumacher should be discredited because his machinery was the more dominant. It has never been as dominant as the McLarens were.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
By the way, Senna and Schumacher seem the consensus top 2, with Prost also having quite a few supporters. Who would you guys rank 3 - 10 or is there anyone capable of competing with these 3. Nelson Piquet has to be up there, and Nikki Lauda also is another not far off these three.

Strangely enough, Allan Jones was a super fast driver in the Senna mold. He only won once and then retired, but he was capable of performing over and above the level of his machinery, like Senna and Schoemacher. I think he was far better than his one world championship indicates.
 

Parra

Referee
Messages
24,900
Sir Jack Brabham - nobody else has achieved what he did. Nobody else will either.

Nikki Lauda

Fangio, Clark, Nuvolari, Ascari - how can you compare these legends.

John Surtees - will anyone else manage what he did?


There is no consensus on the top 2 at all - let alone top 10.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
Sir Jack Brabham - nobody else has achieved what he did. Nobody else will either.

Nikki Lauda

Fangio, Clark, Nuvolari, Ascari - how can you compare these legends.

John Surtees - will anyone else manage what he did?


There is no consensus on the top 2 at all - let alone top 10.

Of these guys, Nikki Lauda must come the closest. to making the top 2. But with Sir Jack Brabham and Fangio etc, the machinery was so underpowered (and designed) that it meant reflexes needed to be nowhere near the level and accordingly, it was like driving a different class of motor vehicle.

Saying that, i suppose the contrary is tht the cars handled so poorly that they required other skills, so maybe they deserve to rank a little higher. Perhaps to start things off we should limit the discussion from say, 1970?

Incidentally, what about all time favourite cars? Any fans of the Lickety Six Elf cars?
 

Parra

Referee
Messages
24,900
Early GP cars were not underpowered. Poor brakes, tyres and suspension - but they had heaps of grunt. You could argue that todays drivers just have to point-and-squirt in plastic buckets. The argument would be wrong - but so is claiming that the driving skill of early champions was anything less than amazing. The cars handled well - the lack of aerodynamic grip does not mean that the cars were no good.

Jack Brabham designed and built his own car, ran the team and won the titles.

Surtees won both MotoGP & F1 drivers titles (their equivalent).
 

Knightmare

Coach
Messages
10,716
Piquet was quick, but not as good as his 3 World titles stand for. In '83 and '87 he got lucky. Mansell was good enough to have won 3 World titles, but was plagued by bad luck until it all came together wonderfully in '92.

I would rank Senna as the greatest, then probably Fangio (he was in his 40's when he dominated F1), then Schumacher. After that, probably Prost, Clark, Stewart, Mansell, Brabham, Moss and Piquet just edging out Villeneuve (Gilles, had he not been killed in 1982 I think he would have been a dominant force over the next 5 years. Would love to have seen his battles with a young Senna!).
 

aqua_duck

Coach
Messages
18,639
Schumacher is as good as most drivers on the course, from even the Senna days. The difference that sets him apart from most drivers on the track, is that he'll do anything to win, every race. He has no problems making contact, forcing other drivers off the track etc etc. He's basically a thug (in a good way), that most other drivers won't go that extra inch to challenge. Skill wise, he has nothing more than Raikonnen, Alonso, Hamilton, Button etc etc have. It's his attitude that made him so dominant in his prime.

Had Senna been around still Schumacher would have less trophies in his cabinet, but it certainly wouldn't be bare.
agree 100%
 

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