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Would Shane Bond Make the all time ODI World XI?

Shane Bond - World XI material?


  • Total voters
    40

JJ

Immortal
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32,294
And another thing I seem to recall Bond getting belted around abit in his last few ODI games here in Oz. game.

I've not checked his stats but I think it would be interesting to compare his results in Aust with his results in NZ.


He averages about 14 against Australia in Australia, and averages 19.8 in Australia overall (played England and RSA too)

At home, he averages 18.6...

whereever he bowled he was outstanding - and he actually only played about 15 odis in NZ, so your argument is completely wrong - and it was Waqar that had the benefit of ripping through batting lineups on green NZ pitches not Bond...

Finally in ODIs Bond was simply awesome against the best opposition (Australia) and on the biggest stage World Cup

Also, there's no doubt he was a fantastic test bowler too...

Simply, he's a lock for the greatest NZ teams ever (with Hadlee and COwie(tests)) despite like Cowie not having played a huge # of games - and certainly warrants serious consideration for the greatest ODI team of all time (probably missing out ultimately though)
 

Twizzle

Administrator
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152,459
whereever he bowled he was outstanding - and he actually only played about 15 odis in NZ, so your argument is completely wrong - and it was Waqar that had the benefit of ripping through batting lineups on green NZ pitches not Bond...

what argument ?

I was making a few observations and asking a few questions

my we are very precious about Mr Bond
 

JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,294
unfortunately stats guru wont tell you that Bond bowled about half of his overs on green kiwi pitches which are not suited to batting and Waqar bowled half his overs on flat Pakistan wickets that predominantly favour the batsmen

another instance where the stats worshipers can be lead astray

The underlined argument, which was illinformed... if you actually took the time to look at the stats, you'll have seen that Bond played very few games at home...

It's not stats worshippers that get led astray, but ignoramouses that make sweeping conclusions on the basis of very limited observations (actually, not on the basis of observations, more like hallucinations, or delusions designed to support their ill-informed preconceived beliefs)
 

Twizzle

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152,459
so stats guru gives pitch reports now huh ?

sorry, no it doesn't

precious much ?
 

Twizzle

Administrator
Staff member
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152,459
come on JJ, you can do better than that, surely

as soon as some mentions that your precious Bond has bowled on some favourable wickets, you head straight for stats guru again and retort with typical personal abuse and add in some :crazy: and :lol:

you'e as predictable as the Fremantle doctor

I can imagine what would happen if people here took cheap shots at Bond as regularly as you do at the Aussies, but still, its good to know what presses your buttons.
 

JJ

Immortal
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32,294
provide some evidence, not generalisations and then there might be a debate
 

Twizzle

Administrator
Staff member
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152,459
lol,

so you want me to provide some evidence that kiwi wickets are bowler friendly

your in denial

have a nice day
 

JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,294
lol,

so you want me to provide some evidence that kiwi wickets are bowler friendly

your in denial

have a nice day

No, as I said before, you need to show that Bond has benefited from that - I pointed out that Bond played relative few ODIs in NZ, and of course over's Bond's career the grounds here have been batter friendly
 

Blaze

Juniors
Messages
1,375
unfortunately stats guru wont tell you that Bond bowled about half of his overs on green kiwi pitches which are not suited to batting and Waqar bowled half his overs on flat Pakistan wickets that predominantly favour the batsmen

another instance where the stats worshipers can be lead astray

Huh? He played a quarter of his games at home, during a period where pitches in NZ were flat for ODI's anyway...

There is a lot of ignorance being displayed here by some of the Australian posters. I would have thought Bond would have been thought of quite highly in Aus considering his unbelievable record against you guys.

The sticking point seems to be the amount of games that Bond played. I think Manu makes a very valid point when he says that Bond proved hismelf over a decent time period, and that he managed to successfully adapt his game when injuries struck and he lost a bit of pace.

The fact that he played over 5-6 years meant that he didn't just have a period of dominance of 60 straight games. He had to keep coming back from injury, remodel his action, get his confidence and rhythm back and regain form. He proved he could do this on numerous occasions. He played his best cricket against Australia and at the two world cups he took part in.

He is a strong candidate...
 

JJ

Immortal
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32,294
Huh? He played a quarter of his games at home, during a period where pitches in NZ were flat for ODI's anyway...

twizzle doesn't seem to comprehend that rather simple point, despite it being pointed out over and over :sarcasm:
 

Mr. Fahrenheit

Referee
Messages
22,132
He is nowhere near World XI material despite being a good bowler, in the similar vein that Michael Clarke isn't hailed as an all time test bowler due to his stats...
 

JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,294
Most sane people would stuggle to see what Shane Bond's bowling has to do with Michael Clarke's... Do you mean Stuart Clark?

Anyway, this is timely - a cursory glance at what he did when fit, and what players he did it to is enough to confirm that Bond, when fit, was pretty much as good as anyone there's ever been

Specials | Interviews >>
article_main_line1.jpg
Shane Bond
That was quick!
For an all-too-brief while, Shane Bond was the world's finest fast bowler, shattering stumps and scaring batsmen. Now at ease with not gracing the main stage anymore, he looks back at his career
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Sriram Veera
November 4, 2008
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Log on to Youtube and you may get to see the ball that changed Shane Bond's career: a searing yorker that knocked out Adam Gilchrist's stumps in a VB series game in 2002.
On the morning of the match Bond threw up at breakfast - a side effect of nervousness that he only managed to get rid of years later. The very good players tend to be nervous wrecks before big games. Sachin Tendulkar can't sleep, George Headley's bowel movements used to change during a Test; for Bond it was throwing up.
"If you are not nervous, I don't think you can get the best out of yourself," Bond says. "You need to be on the edge to perform against the best guys. Even during the warm-ups I used to be tense, but as soon as I got the ball in the game, I would relax. Outwardly you try to show you are calm but I think every one is nervous. You do bluff a bit.
"I remember walking back to the mark after that wicket and telling myself, 'Look, I'm good enough to be here.' That one ball changed my whole thinking. Before that I was still intimidated and thinking, 'Don't get hurt here.' From that point my self-belief went up there. Rather than thinking about don't do this, don't bowl a half-volley, don't get hit, the focus shifted to 'Do this now.' I thought I could be the best bowler in the world and set out to do what was required."
He held that title, for a while at least, and has the records to prove it. Bond's strike-rate of 27.5 is still the best in the history of one-day cricket. He was the fastest bowler to 100 wickets in terms of number of deliveries bowled. In Tests, he has the fourth best strike-rate of all time.
Bond, still boyish-looking, doesn't seem a fast bowler. Nor does he look a cop. He was both.
Shy by nature, he transforms into an animated character while talking about fast bowling. Sitting in his hotel room, watching on the telly as Zaheer Khan harasses the Australians, he brightens up: "Ah that was good. How did he bowl that? ? C'mon, the batsman should have seen that coming." Bond is in India playing in the ICL and watches the Test series when he can.
I is for injury
"It's easy to say that you want to be the best but it's difficult to go out and do it," he says. Train hard, work hard when no one is watching you. For me, I had the desire to do it even when no one was watching."
Never was that desire more severely tested than in 2004, Bond's annus horribilis. He had a back operation - the hipbone was grafted into the vertebra and secured with bolts and wire - and things didn't look too good. It was three weeks before he was able just to touch his toes, seven before he could walk for ten minutes at a stretch. The surgeon told him that his fast bowling was a thing of past. The future was a blur. Bond had a young family to support. Somehow he had to find a way. He did.

You hit them on the thigh or back side, you see them grimace and you go, 'That's good!' I don't like to see them hit on the head and hurt or something. I am the first one to run across. But the times when they are jumping around, you walk back to your mark with a smile





He began to walk, went swimming, and changed his fitness training. He slogged through four sessions a day: ten overs of bowling in the morning, followed by an hour of weights. Then a half-hour of rest before a 40-minute run. He ended the day with a session of boxing training. No one was watching.
Knowing that he did his best to overcome his body is what has allowed Bond to come to terms with thoughts of what could have been. His bid for a spot on the list of the greats will always come with an asterisk: he played only 17 Test matches, the footnote will say.
Bond doesn't think too much about how his career would have shaped if not for all the injuries. "I don't see my cricket career as a 'but' now. I have worked really hard on my game, especially on my fitness," he says. "That was the whole point for me. If I got injured, I got injured, but I did everything possible to take care of myself."
On tours, when team-mates went out to party, Bond would usually stay back at the hotel. He didn't drink a lot, or indulge in anything that could later give cause for regret. "I did everything I could, but I still got injured. For me, it was just not meant to be."
'No mate, you've got to be the best'
Bond first dreamed of playing cricket for New Zealand at the age of five. When he was 12 he met his hero Richard Hadlee.
He was 16 when he decided he had to do improve his bowling. "I picked up the phonebook, dialled Dayle Hadlee [New Zealand's bowling coach then] and asked him whether I could come to his house and have a chat, have a look at my video. As I grew a bit older, he was in charge of the academy and we shared a great relationship."
During his time in the police force, "raiding houses and chasing bad men", Bond would save his seven-weeks' holiday to play cricket in the summer. And when he did, he bowled fast and blew teams out in club cricket. After one such annihilation, his first-class coach Gary McDonald said, "That's the quickest going on in New Zealand. I'm going to call up Richard Hadlee."
Bond played for New Zealand A on a tour of India in 2001, during which he picked up a bunch of wickets. Later that year he made his international debut, against Australia.
It was a conversation with Chris Cairns shortly after that gave Bond direction. Cairns asked the debutant about his plans. "I said I want to take wickets and try to stay in the team, and he said, 'No mate, you've got to strive to be the best bowler, the No. 1 bowler in NZ, and soon the best bowler in the world." After I played in the first part of that VB series, I thought he was right: I want to be the best bowler in the world."
Bond didn't have a great start against the Australians, though. He remembers standing in the nets, watching the mighty Aussies go about their task. "All the stars were there. I thought, this is the best team in history and I'm going up against them, but the good thing is that it's never going to get harder.
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"I didn't pick up many wickets but I went past the bat a few times and it gave me confidence that I could compete against these guys. Then Bangladesh came along, which was a good thing. I picked up wickets and my confidence grew. Then the VB Series, which was the turning point for me."
There's something about the Australians that brought the best out of Bond. In 11 ODIs against them he has taken 34 wickets at 13.88, with a best of 6 for 23. "They can make you look stupid if you don't bowl well," Bond says. "And I always felt a lot of buzz when going against them. They like to attack and come after you, but it gives you a chance to pick wickets. I used my swing, bowled fast and kept it full outside off. I'm lucky that I swing the ball. I always believed that I could bowl the ball that can get somebody out. Good luck to them if they keep coming hard."
Thinking 'em out
Brain triumphs over brawn for Bond. Talk about his famous yorkers and he'd rather tell you about the thought-out dismissals that he cherishes more.
Brian Lara was a prized victim. When he was new at the crease, Lara would move back and across in an exaggerated manner; but rarely had he been bowled around his legs. Bond stored that movement in his head.
The opportunity came in a Test in Auckland. In the first innings Lara was out cutting Bond to point. In the second innings Bond fired his first ball in full, fast and swinging. Lara walked across and his leg stump was out of the hole. "That felt great," Bond says.
He was never the sledging fast bowler. The odd stare or the occasional wry smile to suggest he had got the better of the batsman was more his style. "I just concentrated on keeping at the batsman. Even if he hit me for a four I would be at him the next ball. He would know that I was not going to give up, that I'd keep knocking till I got him out."
Some good-old quick bowler's meanness does trickle out, though. Bond says with a smile that he loves to see batsmen hop - though he doesn't like to really hurt anyone. "You hit them on the thigh or back side, you see them grimace and you go, 'That's good!' I don't like to see them hit on the head and hurt or something. I am the first one to run across. But the times when they are jumping around, you walk back to your mark with a smile. No one enjoys facing fast bowling."
Who were the good batsmen he liked bowling against, who he felt weren't too comfortable playing him? "Sourav Ganguly." A few at his ribcage and then slip in a yorker? He nods. "And I always thought I had a chance against [Virender] Sehwag. I used to swing the ball back in and he had problems with it. [Herschelle] Gibbs always felt that when he was on song he could play me, but I liked bowling to him. Graeme Smith played me well, but then I got my own back."
Who was difficult to dislodge? "I've got to say [Matthew] Hayden. If you are swinging into him he has problems, but my strength was swinging away from the left-hand batsmen and so I never had a great chance of bowling him or getting him lbw. Similarly [Shivnarine] Chanderpaul. He knows his off stump and doesn't give you much chance."

Knowing that he did his best to overcome his body is what has allowed Bond to come to terms with thoughts of what could have been





It was in the Auckland game where he got Lara twice that he thinks he produced his best spell of Test bowling. "We were defending 290 they were nearly 150 for none. [Chris] Gayle and [Daren] Ganga were playing well. Ganga got out and I hit [Ramnaresh] Sarwan with a bouncer and bowled Lara around his legs. The ball started to reverse and I got three more wickets. It was my best-controlled spell: I got players out when and in the way I wanted. I remember the previous night telling myself tomorrow is a big day and I am going to go good." Bond's figures read 5 for 69 and West Indies fell 28 runs short.
Like his idol, Hadlee, Bond charged himself up by setting targets of wickets and averages. "When I was playing ODIs, I set two wickets a game. I wanted four runs per over and to keep my average under 20. Similarly in Tests I wanted to keep it under 20. I was driven by trying to just keep it there. Stats are not going to define you as a player but I used it to get the best out of myself. I pushed myself to wanting to be the best and get my ranking higher and higher."
And so he rose before injuries pulled him down and the decision to play in the ICL finally froze his international career. He has no regrets about that choice - "When I joined the ICL I thought I could play both and it was just common sense as far as financial reasons go" - but when he eventually hangs his boots up for good he knows he will miss the big time. "Like winning, especially against Australia at their home in front of huge crowds. They give you tremendous stick and when you do well it gives you great adrenalin. Nothing is going to beat that. Life is going to be a bit boring!"
Sriram Veera is a staff writer at Cricinfo

http://content-nz.cricinfo.com/magazine/content/current/story/375203.html
 

Tommy Smith

Referee
Messages
21,344
Shane Bond would make the Greatest ODI team of the Decade, but all-time? I wouldn't go that far.

And thats no disrespect to him, but when you have the likes of Wasim Akram, Joel Garner, Glenn McGrath, and then maybe a tier down Allan Donald, Curtly Ambrose, Shaun Pollock, Waqar Younis and Brett Lee then it's hard to see where Bond would fit in.

His statistics match-up with these guys, but only over 66 matches. The bowlers mentioned above have done it over far longer careers. But i'd probably pick him next after those guys for sure as far as fast-bowlers go. So he's right up there...
 

simmo1

First Grade
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5,448
Shane Bond would make the Greatest ODI team of the Decade, but all-time? I wouldn't go that far.

And thats no disrespect to him, but when you have the likes of Wasim Akram, Joel Garner, Glenn McGrath, and then maybe a tier down Allan Donald, Curtly Ambrose, Shaun Pollock, Waqar Younis and Brett Lee then it's hard to see where Bond would fit in.

His statistics match-up with these guys, but only over 66 matches. The bowlers mentioned above have done it over far longer careers. But i'd probably pick him next after those guys for sure as far as fast-bowlers go. So he's right up there...

Most sensible post in this thread. You simply cannot make an all-time X1 after so few games. Its longevity which sorts out the men from the boys.

Had he not been so injury prone, then who knows, he could have even better stats, but you'll never know. And as was shown earlier in this thread, there were other bowlers with Bond-like stats after a similar amount of games (Bracken probably has similar), but its maintaining that level which is what makes that player an all-time great.
 

byrne_rovelli_fan82

First Grade
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7,477
As I'm bias I say of course he would and should. Short career it was/is but he had a big impact. The regular hatricks against Aust and India and one of the minows.

Best at the time when he played. Hands down.
 

TheParraboy

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67,490
There is a lot of ignorance being displayed here by some of the Australian posters. I would have thought Bond would have been thought of quite highly in Aus considering his unbelievable record against you guys.

The only ignorance I see is the few kiwi supporters thinking he might have a place in an all time world XI side, now thats ignorance at its best right there
 

TheParraboy

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67,490
Shane Bond would make the Greatest ODI team of the Decade, but all-time? I wouldn't go that far.

And thats no disrespect to him, but when you have the likes of Wasim Akram, Joel Garner, Glenn McGrath, and then maybe a tier down Allan Donald, Curtly Ambrose, Shaun Pollock, Waqar Younis and Brett Lee then it's hard to see where Bond would fit in.

His statistics match-up with these guys, but only over 66 matches. The bowlers mentioned above have done it over far longer careers. But i'd probably pick him next after those guys for sure as far as fast-bowlers go. So he's right up there...

good post Tommy

so you would pick Bond after those blokes, no problems at all. so would I

To my calculations Bondy would just scrap in to an all time World XI 3rd side ;-)
 
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