Young Stars

[BennyV]

But if the argument is around pathways, identification and development, surely all the guys mentioned are a positive reflection of what we as a club are doing. Each has made progress and as stated none are older than 22. Some or all these blokes could be bona fide first grade quality players.

Lomax - could be anything with the NSW Origin coach anointing him "the gifted one"
Robson - NSW and Australian junior rep honours given massive wraps by the national coach recently
Dufty - one of our best the 1st half of the season and won us 3 games on his own,
Lawrie - one of our best forwards late in the year and had a stormer in the Suncorp semi, more than made up for the loss of Vaughan
Luc - massive improvement in 2018, again was a standout in the Suncorp semi
Host - has proven in limited appearances he belongs in FG, tough to get a crack with 2 Origin 2nd rowers ahead of him
Field - not yet proven in FG, but still has time to make it.

Dude, that's 7 blokes just off the top of my head. What more do you expect our pathways to achieve? Other than maybe the Panthers and the Broncos, I don't see any other great example of pathways in any other club.

As I said, pathways is not just about having talented juniors. We’ve always had that. It’s about developing them and giving them the skills and opportunities to make it as first graders with our club.

Recognising talent but giving them a token few minutes and leaving them to float on the fringes for years while journeymen and plodders get free rides in first grade is only doing half a job. The 7 you’ve named off the top of your head don’t have/haven’t had a true pathway in terms of development and opportunity.

 

[giboz71]

As I said, pathways is not just about having talented juniors. We’ve always had that. It’s about developing them and giving them the skills and opportunities to make it as first graders with our club.

Recognising talent but giving them a token few minutes and leaving them to float on the fringes for years while journeymen and plodders get free rides in first grade is only doing half a job. The 7 you’ve named off the top of your head don’t have/haven’t had a true pathway in terms of development and opportunity.

Well, let's see how 2019 pans out and re-visit this discussion.

All the issues you have mentioned centres on our head coach, rather than our ability to identify and develop juniors. Just because our coach isn't smart enough to utilise his squad, doesn't mean they don't have the talent. In my opinion, all of those 7 blokes are good enough to play FG.

In fact, Millward who has managed to nab Hunt, Graham, Vaughan, McInnes, Tariq and now Norman in the space of 2 years, and have those 7 young blokes I mentioned ready to step up from our junior ranks, if we flame out again this year, it won't be because of recruitment.

 

[Frank Facer]

But if the argument is around pathways, identification and development, surely all the guys mentioned are a positive reflection of what we as a club are doing. Each has made progress and as stated none are older than 22. Some or all these blokes could be bona fide first grade quality players.

Lomax - could be anything with the NSW Origin coach anointing him "the gifted one"
Robson - NSW and Australian junior rep honours given massive wraps by the national coach recently
Dufty - one of our best the 1st half of the season and won us 3 games on his own,
Lawrie - one of our best forwards late in the year and had a stormer in the Suncorp semi, more than made up for the loss of Vaughan
Luc - massive improvement in 2018, again was a standout in the Suncorp semi
Host - has proven in limited appearances he belongs in FG, tough to get a crack with 2 Origin 2nd rowers ahead of him
Field - not yet proven in FG, but still has time to make it.

Dude, that's 7 blokes just off the top of my head. What more do you expect our pathways to achieve? Other than maybe the Panthers and the Broncos, I don't see any other great examples of pathways in any other club.

Good post.

 

[Carlton]

Plenty? I would call it ‘some’ first grade, and IMO that’s not enough to consistute a pathway, it should include development of their skills and giving them the tools to be long term first graders.

No guarantee of Host or Luc starting at all. This is the same coach that preferred a utility back to play lock over a youngster. No guarantee that Lawrie gets a bench spot, with Mary preferring Latimore all last year. Dufty (an example of under-development of skills) is unlikely to start the year, and there’s a question as to whether or not he should (because of said underdevelopment). Again, neither Field nor Robson are guaranteed a bench spot (although likely one will, gaining a token 5 minutes per game instead of being used strategically for the benefit of the team and the player). And while Lomax will likely be in the side, chances are his best position will remain with the other underdeveloped junior we have been unable to get to the next level (Aitken). We could easily see a backline of Widdop, Periera, Lafai, Aitken, Pearson.

So ultimately it depends on your definition of ‘pathway’ but we are not doing enough to balance development of skills and opportunity for young players compared with the top teams (and that’s the bench mark we should be settting).

I think one of the biggest issues is identification and recruitment of juniors that have the right size, speed, skills and attitude. And then, harshly assessing them and cutting them if they are not "elite" and recruiting the next one.

It looks a little bit like we are starting to do this recruiting Blacker, Ravalawa, Pearson, Schiller and letting go Herbert, Sele. One of the problems we seem to have had in the past is sticking with players who have shown something when they were young but couldn't show they could step up to "elite" in a first grade context. We kept them for too long and this is stifling junior pathways for the players that are the real deal.

 

[BennyV]

Well, let's see how 2019 pans out and re-visit this discussion.

All the issues you have mentioned centres on our head coach, rather than our ability to identify and develop juniors. Just because our coach isn't smart enough to utilise his squad, doesn't mean they don't have the talent. In my opinion, all of those 7 blokes are good enough to play FG.

In fact, Millward who has managed to nab Hunt, Graham, Vaughan, McInnes, Tariq and now Norman in the space of 2 years, and have those 7 young blokes I mentioned ready to step up from our junior ranks, if we flame out again this year, it won't be because of recruitment.

Yeah, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Again!

Not just the head coach, but the entire coaching and football staff (including Millard, being the head of it all) because they are all responsible for ongoing development of players. While I agree that those 7 may be talented enough to play first grade, real pathways are also about development of those players to be ready for first grade (again, looking at Dufty/Aitken and the inability address their weaknesses) and creating opportunities for them to prove their talent. And the fact that all involved are not on the same page is an indication that work needs to be done overall to fix it.

I would love to see Host and Lomax as permanent starters in their best position, Leilua as one of the most feared impact players in the comp, Robson getting 30-40 minutes a game, Dufty prove all the doubters wrong, Lawrie as an integral part of our forward rotation and Field getting some meaningful experience in first grade - and if half of these things happen, I’d be happy to eat my words and say that our junior pathways are top shelf. I would have also loved to have seen Sele ready to step into JDBs shoes this year, and Herbert competing alongside Lomax for a spot in our backline (which was our obvious weakness last year).

However based on past experience with our football department, we are just as likely to see Lomax sitting on the wing or in reserve grade in favour of those with more first grade experience (Pearson, Periera, Aitken, Lafai), a few of Lawrie/Host/Leilua getting minimal minutes in favour of Latimore and Allgood, Robson and Field getting a token 5 minutes here and there and few, if any, of these guys actually improve their careers over the course of the year.

But lets see what happens.

 

[BennyV]

I think one of the biggest issues is identification and recruitment of juniors that have the right size, speed, skills and attitude. And then, harshly assessing them and cutting them if they are not "elite" and recruiting the next one.

It looks a little bit like we are starting to do this recruiting Blacker, Ravalawa, Pearson, Schiller and letting go Herbert, Sele. One of the problems we seem to have had in the past is sticking with players who have shown something when they were young but couldn't show they could step up to "elite" in a first grade context. We kept them for too long and this is stifling junior pathways for the players that are the real deal.

We are still doing that - look at Aitken and (to a lesser extent) Dufty.

For mine, Sele definitely showed he was able to step up to first grade, just needed a bit of polish (coaching), but instead got scrapped. And Herbert showed as much ability in reserve grade as Field and Dufty, plus had the physical attributes that would make the transition easier. All of these guys may make it, OR none of them, but if Field and Dufty fail in the long run, then it must beg the question of whether or not we would have been better investing in Herbert instead (regardless of where he ends up) and if so, who made that call? Keep in mind, for a young, up and coming player, a change of clubs before their reputation builds can be the worst thing for their career.

We’ve always had project players like Blacker and Schiller (both comfortably 2 years way from first grade) but we seem to struggle to get them to a point where they break into our squad and become valuable, long term players who continue to improve. Looking across our squad, the only one I can really see in JDB.

 

[Carlton]

But if the argument is around pathways, identification and development, surely all the guys mentioned are a positive reflection of what we as a club are doing. Each has made progress and as stated none are older than 22. Some or all these blokes could be bona fide first grade quality players.

Lomax - could be anything with the NSW Origin coach anointing him "the gifted one"
Robson - NSW and Australian junior rep honours given massive wraps by the national coach recently
Dufty - one of our best the 1st half of the season and won us 3 games on his own,
Lawrie - one of our best forwards late in the year and had a stormer in the Suncorp semi, more than made up for the loss of Vaughan
Luc - massive improvement in 2018, again was a standout in the Suncorp semi
Host - has proven in limited appearances he belongs in FG, tough to get a crack with 2 Origin 2nd rowers ahead of him
Field - not yet proven in FG, but still has time to make it.

Dude, that's 7 blokes just off the top of my head. What more do you expect our pathways to achieve? Other than maybe the Panthers and the Broncos, I don't see any other great examples of pathways in any other club.

Dufty played first grade all year he has been given a shot and had a number of deficiencies in his game. And Dufty is 23 in a week.
Luc was in the first grade team last year and is improving but needs to take it to the next level.
Host has played first grade and is the one out of this group that has it the hardest due to the quality of the players ahead of him.
Lawrie is no way better than Vaughan and still has a long way to go before he is a starting prop.
Field is not ready for first grade and has similar problems to Dufty.
Lomax looked the goods and handled first grade.
Robson is still unknown as far as first grade is concerned, when he did play he looked OK but was struggling physically, he is a talent and needs to be brought through sensibly.

 

[Carlton]

We are still doing that - look at Aitken and (to a lesser extent) Dufty.

For mine, Sele definitely showed he was able to step up to first grade, just needed a bit of polish (coaching), but instead got scrapped. And Herbert showed as much ability in reserve grade as Field and Dufty, plus had the physical attributes that would make the transition easier. All of these guys may make it, OR none of them, but if Field and Dufty fail in the long run, then it must beg the question of whether or not we would have been better investing in Herbert instead (regardless of where he ends up) and if so, who made that call? Keep in mind, for a young, up and coming player, a change of clubs before their reputation builds can be the worst thing for their career.

We’ve always had project players like Blacker and Schiller (both comfortably 2 years way from first grade) but we seem to struggle to get them to a point where they break into our squad and become valuable, long term players who continue to improve. Looking across our squad, the only one I can really see in JDB.

Agree with this BennyV, I wasn't trying to say there was no room for improvement just that there is some change starting. Whether Herbert and Sele should have been let go is arguable, they looked like they could have been solid first graders but if that means there is no spot for a potential future superstar then hard decisions have to be made. I agree we have been weak in making a decison about Aitken, Dufty, Field.

This sounds really bad but its not about ensuring the juniors "professional" careers, its about the club finding those juniors that do have "professional" careers and developing them.

 

[BennyV]

Agree with this BennyV, I wasn't trying to say there was no room for improvement just that there is some change starting. Whether Herbert and Sele should have been let go is arguable, they looked like they could have been solid first graders but if that means there is no spot for a potential future superstar then hard decisions have to be made. I agree we have been weak in making a decison about Aitken, Dufty, Field.

This sounds really bad but its not about ensuring the juniors "professional" careers, its about the club finding those juniors that do have "professional" careers and developing them.

Agree with your last sentence, and I think that’s where we fail - persisting with those who are either destined to never make it OR are not being developed properly, and putting many on the scrapheap who could have been worth it.

 

[giboz71]

Yeah, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Again!

Not just the head coach, but the entire coaching and football staff (including Millard, being the head of it all) because they are all responsible for ongoing development of players. While I agree that those 7 may be talented enough to play first grade, real pathways are also about development of those players to be ready for first grade (again, looking at Dufty/Aitken and the inability address their weaknesses) and creating opportunities for them to prove their talent. And the fact that all involved are not on the same page is an indication that work needs to be done overall to fix it.

I would love to see Host and Lomax as permanent starters in their best position, Leilua as one of the most feared impact players in the comp, Robson getting 30-40 minutes a game, Dufty prove all the doubters wrong, Lawrie as an integral part of our forward rotation and Field getting some meaningful experience in first grade - and if half of these things happen, I’d be happy to eat my words and say that our junior pathways are top shelf. I would have also loved to have seen Sele ready to step into JDBs shoes this year, and Herbert competing alongside Lomax for a spot in our backline (which was our obvious weakness last year).

However based on past experience with our football department, we are just as likely to see Lomax sitting on the wing or in reserve grade in favour of those with more first grade experience (Pearson, Periera, Aitken, Lafai), a few of Lawrie/Host/Leilua getting minimal minutes in favour of Latimore and Allgood, Robson and Field getting a token 5 minutes here and there and few, if any, of these guys actually improve their careers over the course of the year.

But lets see what happens.

Yep let’s she what happens. What you have described I hope for too, but that is a Nirvana that few if any clubs can achieve with their pathways.

What other club has 7 graduates of their pathways under 22 be meaningful parts of their weekly 17 and still be a contender? We are not the Knights on a 5 year plan with Nathan Brown.

Guys like Luc, Lawrie and Lomax in particular who are products of our pathways showed evidence of improvement and development and were meaningful contributors to our semi final performances last year. This is progress no matter which way you look at it.

We’re by no means perfect I agree, but we’re not exactly the basket case you and many others are making out.

 

[possm]

BennyV .. i think the edge suits him more - get him running at opposition 6/7 and working as a link .. i think there is plenty of opportunity for him to create. I think against props and locks though there is less chance .. he to me would revel with less numbers in the tackle against him.

Agree that Lomax/Robson have the highest ceiling - i just think Luc is unique enough to be able to create a bit of havoc with his offloading and soft hands .. Especially on out in plays.

Leilua will benefit a lot with Norman at 6. I can see Norman creating holes and delivering good accurate passes to send Leilua crashing through to score.

 

[possm]

Yep let’s she what happens. What you have described I hope for too, but that is a Nirvana that few if any clubs can achieve with their pathways.

What other club has 7 graduates of their pathways under 22 be meaningful parts of their weekly 17 and still be a contender? We are not the Knights on a 5 year plan with Nathan Brown.

Guys like Luc, Lawrie and Lomax in particular who are products of our pathways showed evidence of improvement and development and were meaningful contributors to our semi final performances last year. This is progress no matter which way you look at it.

We’re by no means perfect I agree, but we’re not exactly the basket case you and many others are making out.

Having someone like Nathen Brown as Pathways Director at the NRL would go a long way towards creating a professional junior pathways system. Those Clubs who do not have a good junior rugby league competion within their district could be encouraged to develop one or pay other Clubs for juniors that are coming through.

 

[Dorothy the Winowhore]

BennyV.....How can, or why should, the club invest in Herbert when he is off contract and told officials that he would not extend because his wife wants them to move back to NZ?

 

[Saints Forever]

BennyV.....How can, or why should, the club invest in Herbert when he is off contract and told officials that he would not extend because his wife wants them to move back to NZ?

It is a risk every club takes when introducing juniors from other geographical areas into their program.

A classic example may prove to be Robson.

He is from Murwillumbah. That is a long way from Kogarah or Wollongong.

Job opportunity + close to family = Contract for most people

Doesn't mean we should stop searching for quality players. Just means that the club staff needs to recognize that young players who come to the club from regional areas and overseas need to be better integrated into the club and the area.

Years ago the young kids were billeted out to good people who acted like parents to make them feel party of the red V family. It worked back in the 50s and 60s. Can't see why it wouldn't work for the young kids who join the club from the bush.

 

[Old Timer]

Truth & Reality funny coming from you, you make shit up and believe it to be the truth and then insult everyone as we have no comprehension on how our club works,but you do, because you are there day in day out and know the on goings of the club 100%, im no supporter of Mary, nor Doust when he was there and im not sold on BJ and the Gordon's just yet. Re Marsters he aint ready for 1st grade and you have no idea what the coaching staff have spoken to him regarding a pathway to 1st grade....still waiting for your 30 man squad....

A couple of serious questions for you
Do you believe that the 30 man squad barring injuries should automatically fill the 17 spots in 1st grade and the 1st 13 spots in ISP?
Do you think that if 2 - 4 “older head” style players outside the top 30 (barring significant injuries) are playing ISP then we have a potential problem?
How many “old heads” do you think you need for ISP and which positions do you think are most important to have them in?
If it is important to have “old heads” for ISP, should they all in fact be part of the 30 man squad rather signing some just to play ISP?

 

[George Dragon]

BennyV.....How can, or why should, the club invest in Herbert when he is off contract and told officials that he would not extend because his wife wants them to move back to NZ?

Patty is not married and his girlfriend is from Wollongong.

 

[Dorothy the Winowhore]

Patty is not married and his girlfriend is from Wollongong.

Maybe he is living a double life, because his reason for wanting out was his partner wanted to raise their kids near family in NZ.

 

[George Dragon]

Maybe he is living a double life, because his reason for wanting out was his partner wanted to raise their kids near family in NZ.

LMAO They have no kids and all of Kirri family live in the Gong

 

[muzby]

Maybe he’s just saying NZ to get as far away from Mary as possible..

 

[BennyV]

BennyV.....How can, or why should, the club invest in Herbert when he is off contract and told officials that he would not extend because his wife wants them to move back to NZ?

...Are you confusing Herbert with Ah Mau?