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Same Old Mates Club and Club Dynamics

Magpies Forever

Juniors
Messages
2,208
Having noticed the resurrection of puzzlement and increasing frustration over WT selection choices and where WT are heading I searched through and found the article I read a week or so ago apparently from a WT insider in the support staff over where the club is at. Is not pretty reading. We still seem to be suffering from the boys club and limited opportunities for those not in the club hence their desire to leave.

We've already had 2 depart- McConnachie and Parihi for 'home sickness' and other reasons and it seems Addo-Clark is already on the way out. Should also mention Taupau in the off-season.

At very least, it makes some sense of the actions / inactions seen at WT lately. Who knows if true though,

Anyway here is the gist of the article:

Team Selection

o The WT website lists 36 players (now 35) in the NRL squad but there's a in-house ‘top 25 list' which may help explain some of the bizarre team selections:

o Jack Buchanan not in our top 6 props - Woods; Grant; Sue; Graham; Grant Griffin; are all far superior under the criteria conducted during pre-season.

o Rankin remains in the side on the wing so he gets familiar with team structures so he can take over from Teddy at fullback during SOO.

o The club has fixed on fielding a minimum 50% local juniors every week in first grade

the selection of Lovett ( Five Dock junior) who has become a close personal friend of Taylor and other influential members of the club. He is also very popular among his team mates particularly with Woods and Sirro.

Nathan Milone is another Balmain local junior like Lovett and is extremely well connected to 2 club sponsors. He's another really good bloke just like Lovett & Buchanan. In addition he's best mates with Brooks & Moses and has captained lower grade sides

• The in-house top 25 squad selection will probably cause the loss of Dallas Graham; Jordan Grant & Josh Addo- Carr.

• The Tigers have developed some new defence terminology which basically critiques an players one on one defence ability. The highest grade is aggressive 'primary defender' which refers to a player who consistently looks to make initial contact in a 'hit and stick' effort.

o Few effective 'primary defenders' in our team apart from Lawrence; Sue & Grant in the forwards Moses (ineffective); Simona & Naquima in the backs. Anyway after 'primary' there is 'secondary' and finally 'third or support'. WT have many in this 'third or support' class most notably Buchanan & Lovett.

o The majority of the forwards should be 'primary', but not at WT.

Appointment of Craig Sandercock as assistant coach.

o many players are actively seeking him out for one on one tips most notably the entire spine. Our 1st grade spine has been playing a style in stark contrast to the Taylor preferred style of Littlejohn and Drinkwater in the NSW CUP.

o Taylor continues to have the support of the team and administration but not all the support staff.

The club remains a cohesive tight knit unit.

• Moses has been earmarked as the priority over Brooks and would play 7 with Rankin assuming his preferred 6 position.

• Farah’s situation in 2017 remains pivotal to WT room to manoeuvre in contract negotiations.

• Chris Lawrence well respected and great clubman.

Club dynamics-

o Harry T won't go over $1m in TPAs p.a. and would only ever consider buying 100% of club. Appears to take advice from Pascoe, Dawn Fraser, Aaron Woods and Robbie Farah, plus 1 Board member and 2 other commercial sponsors.

o Whilst Wests are virtually carrying the club officially, some 70% of all commercial sponsorship is linked back to Balmain connections.

o Mark O'Neils appointment illustrates how much clout the Balmain side of the joint venture still has - he is really close with Dawn Fraser.

o The position of the head coach will be a decision primarily for the Wests side of the joint venture - Taylor is seen as nominally a Wests appointment.

Wests will likely be the principal shareholder by June when a decision on the coach will be made.

At this stage Taylor is right in proclaiming he has 100% support at Board level, and whilst things remain in flux and this may change, it is likely he will survive unless the team falls well below 50% wins.

o There is a demarcation - players play and the admin team run the show.
 
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Magpies Forever

Juniors
Messages
2,208
Sorry forgot- here is the article

https://www.reddit.com/r/weststiger...eresting_insider_info_from_wests_tigers_lots/

The club has deliberately not published its top 25 players (under 1st tier salary cap) as chosen by Head Coach Jason Taylor - the website lists 36 players in the so called NRL squad. Well here's the 'secret top 25 list' which doesn't make for pretty reading, but may help explain some of the bizarre team selections: Teddy Noffa Kev Simona Rankin Moses Brooks Sue Sirro Lawrence Woods Farah Grant Ava Aloiai Cherrington Chee Kam Buchanan Halatau Lovett Ballin Hunt Edwards Littlejohn Drinkwater the next cab off the rank is Milone! The club is hell bent on fielding a minimum 50% local juniors every week in first grade, thus the continued selection of Lovett ( Five Dock junior) who has become a close personal friend of Taylor and other influential members of the club. He is also very popular among his team mates particularly with Woods and Sirro. To his credit he continues to train extremely well and does everything asked of him - the reality however is there for all to see, he's not up to first grade standard - my personal opinion but also backed by some members of support staff.

Going back to my previous posts of Christmas / New Year you will recall I detailed training performances etc. Well apart from Sue; Tyler Cassell; Moses & a few others Chee Kam was right up there with the best performers across all indicators - he certainly matched Lovett and left him for dead in sprints and one on one defence.

The Tigers have developed some new defence terminology which basically critiques an individuals one on one defence ability. The highest grade is aggressive 'primary defender' which refers to a player who consistently looks to make initial contact in a 'hit and stick' effort. Now you can still be a 'primary defender' but not always effective a classic example is Mitch Moses who is always looking to make that initial contact but doesn't always stick. In fact we have very few effective 'primary defenders' in our team apart from Lawrence; Sue & Grant in the forwards Moses (ineffective); Simona & Kevvy in the backs. Anyway after 'primary' there is 'secondary' and finally 'third or support'. Alarmingly we have many in this 'third or support' class most notably Buchanan & Lovett. Chee Kam has been classed as a 'primary' but not always effective. I won't bore you with a player by player classification but suffice to say the majority of the forwards should be 'primary', but that is certainly not the case with us.

Now as to the coaching of the side-: the pivotal change this year has been the appointment of Craig Sandercock as assistant coach. Now many players are actively seeking him out for one on one tips most notably our entire spine. If you listen closely to these 4 /5 (inc Farah & Cherrington) you will hear them mention his name from time to time. Our 1st grade spine has been playing a style in stark contrast to the Taylor preferred style of Littlejohn and Drinkwater in the NSW CUP. Craig Sandercock has a teaching background in addition to extensive coaching both here and in the U.K. and communicates well with the players. He has a mantra "Eyes Up" which the players repeat on the field to focus their attack and play the 'numbers game'. If you get close enough to the sideline you can actually hear it - put simply it means to have a look at the possible options / obviously the opposite of "eyes down bum up" - smarter not harder philosophy. IT IS A CREDIT TO TAYLOR THAT HE ISN'T SO INSECURE THAT HE IS ALLOWING SANDERCOCK TO HAVE SUCH A PROMINENT ROLE! That said while he continues to have the support of the team and administration not all the support staff are on board. My personal view which means very little remains unchanged in that I don't think he is the right man for the job.

Contrary to what may appear in the media the club remains a cohesive tight knit unit. As a so called insider I hear many stories about other clubs that never seem to make the media. As I'm hearing these second hand I generally dismiss them, but I can tell you that there are serious issues both at Parramatta and the Roosters, which make our own petty little personal conflict tensions just that petty. So to finish off with some bullet point summaries: Brooks and Moses are 90% certain to stay as I indicated in previous posts Harry has been active with TPAs for some time. Moses has been earmarked as the priority and would play 7 with Rankin assuming his preferred 6 position. The '4 good players' are Woods; Teddy; Moses & Brooks!

Rankin remains in the side on the wing so he gets familiar with team structures so he can take over from Teddy at fullback during origin. I don't agree at all with this strategy and I am not alone! Josh Addo- Carr is proving to be every bit as good as I observed during pre-season training. He should be in the team now but as he's not in the top 25 he may have to wait his time. But he won't wait beyond this year because as I indicated in New Year's report when I said Seve would leave for Gold Coast or Brisbane, Addo- Carr has now received offers from Gold Coast and Melbourne! Bellamy dragged Koro out of NSW Cup and would love to do the same for a cheap $120k!

Team selections will continue to be hamstrung by our nonsensical top 25 squad and we may lose genuine talent such as Dallas Graham; Jordan Grant etc. My view shared by others in the club is that Jack Buchanan much like Lovett an extremely popular guy is not in our top 6 props by any objective analysis. Woods; Grant; Sue; Graham; Grant Griffin; are all far superior under the criteria conducted during pre-season.

So all in all I share the frustration of many on the forum and hope that this information in some way explains the reasons behind some of the decisions being made. If we were to consistently filled our strongest available team I now have little doubt we would make to top 8. Willow tends to be a good judge when it comes to team selections but sitting down today with 2 of the support staff we came up with this: Teddy Noffa Kevvy Simona Addo-Carr Moses Brooks Woods Farah Grant Sirro Lawrence Sue Ava Halatau / Cherrington Aloiai Chee Kam Next in line in 2 weeks when fit: Edwards.

Hot off the press: Don't count Chee Kam out for Monday against Parra. He may still play NSW Cup on Saturday ( I'll be there working) at Leichhardt for match fitness, but may get a bench spot for 20 minutes play on Monday ahead of Buchanan.

The team is really confident of a strong showing against Parra. Woods, Grant & Sue all looking to go 60 minutes +.A vox pop of 7 support staff has a 4 / 3 majority supporting a win. My personal view is simple. If Taylor can somehow squeeze 50 serviceable minutes out of Lovett and then replace him with Chee Kam for 30 high intensity minutes and Farah can get 50 good minutes then we can win. Cherrington to play 10 before half time / 15-20 after / Farah still maintains he can play full 80 - he did train very well in pre season and has a point to prove - his attitude is steely and determined I'm actually expecting this to be his best season for 3 years, Craig Sandercock and him are very close. If Buchanan gets the bench spot perhaps he will stay there like he did in round 1, but if he actually plays then in all likelihood it means Woods Sue Grant can't get the 60 minutes +, which means Lovett has to go 80 mins, which unfortunately means we lose. Teddy has been ignoring Taylors's instructions to use his wingers - particularly Rankin for kick returns in recent weeks. Taylor wants to see Rankin in this role preparing for SOO - rightfully Teddy has ignored the instruction for now and continues to return kicks as strongly as ever. We'll see if this continues; Taylor wants to see Teddy conserve some of his explosive energy for set plays as second pivot. Teddy is still not completely at full cardio fitness due to an interrupted pre- season, but his knee is fine. I'm thinking he will continue to play his natural game " eyes up"! Moses is reaping the rewards for an extremely strong off season he is the real captain of the ship- he spent some time with his mate Matt Lodge on Monday which shows his loyalty to a friend in need, but there's no way he wants to go down that path. He's not universally liked by all at the club (coaches inc) but universally admired for his tenacity and football skills which are only now just coming to the surface. Guys working here week in week out its easy to lose heart given all the odds stacked against a club like ours, but let me tell you that the vast majority here are committed to making this club great, I believe its almost within our grasp and any frustration I feel is simply because I believe from time to time we create our own obstacles - I can't recall in the last 4 years (my time at the club, though a lifelong fan) when we have consistently and objectively picked our best available side?!

Re Nathan Milone he's another Balmain local junior like Lovett and is extremely well connected to 2 club sponsors..........$$.!!.h He's another really good bloke just like Lovett & Buchanan. In addition he's best mates with Brooks & Moses and has captained lower grade sides. Yet again its blatantly obvious he's not a first grader - he trialed for a contract over pre season and just like Lovett & Buchanan he is a good trainer, but in his case his retention was instigated by influence/s from outside the club. Don't discount the fact that having some of these guys around keeps some of our better performers happy - 'mates club' which I can tolerate up to point, but that doesn't include 1st grade selection!

I can confirm we have tabled an offer to Klemmer - actually this offer was made in February & included $150k TPA. Total package $750k which for the time being will operate as our maximum contract per player : Woods; Teddy; Moses; Brooks. $600k + TPA. All with annual reviews which by 3rd year could translate to $750k +$150k tpa. Klemmer wants min 3 years ( ideally 4) & would sign for us for $900k 1st year - which rightfully we won't / can't pay. Will probably remain at dogs for $600k + $200 TPA. = $800k. Provided Farah moves on in 2017 to ESL or off field role we should be smooth sailing with cap, but have drawn a line in the sand re maximum $ contracts and contract terms ( 3years). We are prepared to pay Farah up to $450k to move on next year. I cannot fault his professional attitude at training and have no evidence of him undermining Taylor in anyway. As previously stated he works a lot with Craig Sandercock and genuinely appears to have accepted his new role. Chris Lawrence is simply an outstanding clubman and is very close to finalizing a restructured deal with the club, though Tim Sheens is now chasing hard from the UK -in simple terms we can't lose either way. Lawrence; Sue; Joel Edwards & Tyler Cassel are the best one on one defenders in the club. Lawrence has found a long overdue home in the second row and is a standout amongst the entire squad in terms of really loving the club and its supporters. Harry has indicated he won't go over $1million in TPAs p.a. and would only ever consider buying 100% of club. As of Monday he now appears to have lost all interest in buying the club, but stands ready to assist with TPAs - he appears to take advice from Pascoe, Dawn Fraser, Aaron Woods and Robbie Farah, plus 1 Board member and 2 other commercial sponsors. He really likes Dawn but unfortunately Dawn doesn't really have a handle on football talent, though she is a staunch supporter of the club. Its no coincidence that Dawn's loyalties lie with the Balmain side of the joint venture and as such she can be relied upon to support those local juniors! Whilst Wests are virtually carrying the club officially, approximately 70% of all commercial sponsorship is linked back to Balmain connections within the club both current and historical. Please don't misconstrue any of this as being an untenable relationship, on the contrary this 'tension' may prove to be a positive in terms of forcing quantifiable results. Mark O'Neils appointment illustrates how much clout the Balmain side of the joint venture still has - he is really close with Dawn Fraser. The retention or otherwise of the head coach will be a decision primarily for the Wests side of the joint venture - Taylor is seen as nominally a Wests appointment, Potter was a Balmain choice, Wests will likely be the principal shareholder by June when a decision on the coach will be made. At this stage Taylor is right in proclaiming he has 100% support at Board level, and whilst things remain in flux and this may change, it is likely he will survive unless the team falls well below 50% wins. A top 8 finish guarantees his job for a further 12 months and whilst Balmain reps have met with Cleary twice he now has a snowflakes chance of being appointed as their formal involvement in the joint venture is a best tenuous. Cleary at one point was in line for O'Neils job which would have been a Trojan horse ploy to get him into the club, but he showed himself to be a man of honour when asked by a Board member whether he was prepared to sign a declaration that he would not coach for at least 3 years - he would not sign this waver. It sounds messy I know but believe me when I say the team is now solely focused on playing and that Pascoe is doing an outstanding job as CEO. In summary there is a demarcation - players play and the admin team run the show with a highly tuned GPS.
 

Tigerted

Juniors
Messages
457
Very revealing info & not surprising.It's clear to us tigers fans that team is not picked on form & the crazy obligation that 50% must be juniors is diabolical.Until this fascist selection policy is abandoned this dysfunctional club will continue to be in the doldrums.

Milone's selection along with Buchanan's frequent selection in 17 demonstrates clearly that Taylor is hamstrung when selecting team.

Milone is so weak slow & pathetic he should never have progressed beyond park footy.
 
Messages
3,233
It appears to me that they have their shit together because that just reads like most businesses in the corporate world.

Who hasn't worked at a place where many a manager got the promotion or actually got the job over many better credentialed people purely because they are mates, relatives or know someone?

Who hasn't worked at a place where many eak of the such and such mafia running the department or section upstairs etc?

Who hasn't worked at a place where one group of back office staff do not get on with, trust, or think much of the ability of others?

The thing that I was happy not to read was that the 3 long term players in Farah, Lawrence and Halatau, run the place, are a bad influence on the young guys, believe that the coach can't coach :D Very happy to not read about Farah and his issues with the coach. Very happy to read that the coach doesn't want Farah in the team.

To me it just read like a critique on the back office, support staff and outsiders such as Fraser.
Happy to read that Harry T still supports the club. Wonder why the 50% juniors thing is happening and under who's guidance.

Other than that it certainly was a WOW piece, I wonder if there was an internal investigation to find out who wrote the piece?
 
Messages
14,796
Same thing was posted up on the Wests Tigers Forum.

They'd (WT,) be looking to find the person responsible. If they are smart, they wouldn't have done it using company property. No doubt they'll be looking to source IP's or member details. They did a while back with another user called Tiger99 who was clearly a member of the team or coaching/trainer staff. They were giving updates on the team bus to a game on one occasion. The club went into overdrive pushing the WTF to provide IP data to the club. Sheens lost his head over it apparently.
 
Messages
3,233
Wonder why the 50% juniors thing is happening and under who's guidance.
Who's decision is it to have 50% juniors? The board, ceo?

I could live with 50% if it was the starting 13 as that would, from perhaps the 13 that they would want, you'd have: Tedesco, Nofoaluma, Moses, Brooks, Woods, Farah, Sironen, Lawrence and Sue or 69%. 9/13*100

So dropping someone like Brooks still gives them 61% and 1 more gives them 53% To get the 50% from 17 players they'd need 9 players (the names above) and we surely do not then need Lovett.

Perhaps they can't do math. They also need to be flexible when it comes to injuries.

1 James Tedesco
2 David Nofoaluma
3 Tim Simona
4 Kevin Naiqama
5 Jordan Rankin
6 Mitchell Moses
7 Luke Brooks
8 Aaron Woods (c)
9 Robbie Farah =
10 Tim Grant
11 Curtis Sironen
12 Chris Lawrence
13 Sauaso Sue
 

Magpies Forever

Juniors
Messages
2,208
Thinking about this I reckon there a few points which go to the heart of things that we are noticing as fans of the club and team:

1/ team selection is not wholely based on merit.

2/ There is a requirement / desire to have 50% of the team each week be local junior derived

3/ Corporate sponsors may be having a say in selection eg Milone

4/ the mates club still exists but I hope somewhat put in its place

5/ defensively the WT pack are weak at tackling

6/ WT are more interesting in keeping Moses than Brooks and they have a ready option to cover Brooks going.

7/ The key spine players are ignoring Taylor's playbook.

8/ Some of the depth signings are already reading the writing on the wall and positioning themselves to leave for better opportunities.

9/ Taylor still looks secure but it depends on being successful.
 

Tigerted

Juniors
Messages
457
It's been one of my many bugbears about this club for many years now how the f**k we r continually defensively challenged.Additionally the fact that our overpaid & under-delivering halves (especially the useless no.7) r ignoring the coach's instructions is deplorable.

Taylor needs to show this mob that he is the boss as unlike the protected players his coaching future is on the line.Im starting to empathise with him coz it seems he may be manacled re decision making.

What a major league basket case this damn club is !
 

Tigers Tale

Juniors
Messages
1,417
Who's decision is it to have 50% juniors? The board, ceo?

If you can qualify for Queensland simply because your family took a holiday on the Gold Coast when you were 12, I am sure players like Chee-Kam, Addo-Carr and a few others that can't seem to get a run under the current 'rules' can claim they spent their Christmas holidays with an aunty that lives out Campbelltown way....would that count????

Geezus are other clubs cobbling themselves with crazy in house rules?
 
Messages
14,796
It's been one of my many bugbears about this club for many years now how the f**k we r continually defensively challenged.Additionally the fact that our overpaid & under-delivering halves (especially the useless no.7) r ignoring the coach's instructions is deplorable.

Taylor needs to show this mob that he is the boss as unlike the protected players his coaching future is on the line.Im starting to empathise with him coz it seems he may be manacled re decision making.

What a major league basket case this damn club is !

In Taylor's defence, he had his nuts cut the minute he tried to bounce Farah. Sounds like he's had all decision making taken away from him. Hardly a fair way to allow him to forge out his career.
 
Messages
3,233
As I said in post #5
It appears to me that they have their shit together because that just reads like most businesses in the corporate world.
tongue was certainly planted in cheek but seriously does it all come down to the office both back and front and upstairs at the management level as well? Perhaps it never was the so called boys club from the playing group that caused the downfall of Potter and perhaps now JT. Who truly truly knows?

Potter was a realist and came to the club just like JT to win but both made one 'wrong' decision on a player and looked what happened. Was it a manager from upstairs that set the coaches straight and perhaps started their downwards spiral. Is it upstairs where the problems have been for a few years now and is not and never was a problem with the playing group.

Anyone remember when Scott Longmuir got the sack as CEO?
http://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl...-as-tigers-chief/story-fn2mcuj6-1225699665696
Because he wanted to run the club as a business. That was in 2009. Then we had Humphreys and the Mayer years and now we have Pascoe which is too many CEO's in 7 years.

Someone might say 'but Farah said that Potter can't coach', has anyone out there said that their manager can't manage? Maybe Tedesco and Moses think that Taylor can't coach but they are being supported by someone upstairs.

At the end of the day though, its the 17 players who are picked (by whoever)each week that must perform on the field.
 

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