20 Team Comp with Perth, Adelaide, NZ2 and QLD5

[docbrown]

To be honest, I'd be surprised if teams 18, 19 & 20 weren't Brisbane 3, NZ 2 and Perth - the order of entry being the big question.

That leaves Adelaide as the one big Australian city without a place in the NRL - and how that's tackled will become one of the game's big questions once we get to 20 teams.. even though some groundwork should be happening NOW.

Pretty much. If Perth gets a team, it's only a matter of time before there's a bid for an Adelaide team.

But yes how to fit all 4 into 20 spots is the big question because it will be a long time after before they go to 21 teams. So either a Sydney team relocates, merges or more likely one of Brisbane or Adelaide doesn't get in. If I were to bet on it, I'd say Adelaide doesn't get in.

 

[flippikat]

Pretty much. If Perth gets a team, it's only a matter of time before there's a bid for an Adelaide team.

But yes how to fit all 4 into 20 spots is the big question because it will be a long time after before they go to 21 teams. So either a Sydney team relocates, merges or more likely one of Brisbane or Adelaide doesn't get in. If I were to bet on it, I'd say Adelaide doesn't get in.

The next time a Sydney club hits the wall, the NRL should say to them "Heeeeyyy.. have you met my friend Adelaide...?"

(HIMYM reference purely intentional)

 

[docbrown]

Just to respond to people who think Perth can't be in a division with New Zealand teams, here's a mock draw to show how it could work. Perth will have to travel to New Zealand to play the Warriors regardless of whether they are in a division with them or not. If you schedule it so that they get a bye the week after the impact is negligible.

 

[greenBV4]

If Perth comes into the competition, regardless of whether or not we end up with divisions, they're going to be playing 12 or more games outside of Perth every year. So they're travelling no matter what, similar to what the Cowboys and Storm do already. And at least one of those away games will likely be in Auckland against the Warriors. Unless you're suggesting that they never play the Warriors in Auckland or vice versa, which if so is kind of odd.

Of one of those 12+ away trips to the East Coast for Perth that they will have to do no matter what happens, instead of flying to Sydney, all I'm suggesting is that for just one more of those games, they will fly 2 hours further to Christchurch instead of Sydney. It's really not the end of the world. As for customs, other NRL teams handle it well enough.

Also whenever East Coast NFL teams play West Coast NFL teams, it's usually a 5 or 6 hour flight depending on the location and they're usually doing at least once or twice a season. Miami and Dallas are in divisions where the rest of the teams are all in the North-East, so they're travelling like Perth would have to every other week. The Seahawks and Buccaneers played in Germany last year and it was probably at least a 12 hour flight for Seattle. This is just what happens when competitions are played across continents.

yes but every club would have to do this

what youre suggesting is that only a quarter will have to while another quarter doesn't go further than a bus trip for a few suburbs

Im not suggesting its unfair for perth to have to fly to Auckland, that's a given, i'm suggesting that its unfair that only the teams in the southern division have to jet between these 2 extremities

 

[flippikat]

I think the key to travel to Perth is the "Mini-tour" - for instance..

* Warriors play a home game on Friday night

* Warriors play away at Perth on Sunday night, the following weekend (maximum lead-in, given the travel)

* Warriors stay in Australia, fly to Melbourne (or Adelaide, if Adelaide is in the comp)

* Warriors play Adelaide or Melbourne on Saturday the next weekend.

* Warriors fly back to NZ, and play a home game the following Sunday afternoon.

Likewise with Perth going to NZ, play a game in the East on the way over (or way back). They may also want to do a "mini tour" of Queensland.

I can see a "2 games at home, 2 games away" schedule for Perth at some parts of the season, just to try and alleviate some of the travel strain & make the season a mix of mini-tours & 2-3 weekends in a row "home residencies" - not your usual alternating home and away weekends.

 

[Ideas Man Stephen]

If Perth comes into the competition, regardless of whether or not we end up with divisions, they're going to be playing 12 or more games outside of Perth every year. So they're travelling no matter what, similar to what the Cowboys and Storm do already. And at least one of those away games will likely be in Auckland against the Warriors. Unless you're suggesting that they never play the Warriors in Auckland or vice versa, which if so is kind of odd.

Of one of those 12+ away trips to the East Coast for Perth that they will have to do no matter what happens, instead of flying to Sydney, all I'm suggesting is that for just one more of those games, they will fly 2 hours further to Christchurch instead of Sydney. It's really not the end of the world. As for customs, other NRL teams handle it well enough.

Also whenever East Coast NFL teams play West Coast NFL teams, it's usually a 5 or 6 hour flight depending on the location and they're usually doing at least once or twice a season. Miami and Dallas are in divisions where the rest of the teams are all in the North-East, so they're travelling like Perth would have to every other week. The Seahawks and Buccaneers played in Germany last year and it was probably at least a 12 hour flight for Seattle. This is just what happens when competitions are played across continents.

Perth flying isn’t the concern. Perth will have to fly east every second week regardless. That is the basic cost of entering the competition.

The problem is, the weekly travel advantage Sydney clubs already hold under the current structure, would be even further exacerbated under a conference system that will maximise the number of Sydney/NSW/ACT fixtures they play in a season.

 

[docbrown]

yes but every club would have to do this

what youre suggesting is that only a quarter will have to while another quarter doesn't go further than a bus trip for a few suburbs

Im not suggesting its unfair for perth to have to fly to Auckland, that's a given, i'm suggesting that its unfair that only the teams in the southern division have to jet between these 2 extremities

Sydney clubs in the NRL and Melbourne clubs in the AFL already have that bus trip advantage that you're complaining about. It's the mathematical reality of having 9 teams in one city in a 17 team comp. Just look at the draw for any Sydney NRL club this year for evidence.

Say in a best case scenario you get your wish and a Sydney club plays the fewest Sydney games it can by playing Storm, Raiders, Warriors, Knights, Dolphins, Broncos, Titans and Cowboys all away. Well in that case they will still play 16 games out of 24 in Sydney at a minimum. However, it is mathematically impossible to do that for every Sydney team every year. The reality is Sydney teams will play around 16 to 20 Sydney games a year under the current system.

And they will likely continue to do similar to that regardless of how divisions are structured.

For example here's a best case scenario with 4 divisions. At best with 9 Sydney teams and 4 divisions, each division has to have 2 Sydney teams in it and one will have 3. But for a division to play as equitably as possible, a Sydney team should alternate playing the 7 other Sydney teams not in their division home and away each season. So you have to add another 3 or 4 games. So best case scenario is 15 to 16 games in Sydney for each Sydney club. Again though in reality because draws are never perfect, the reality would be anywhere from 14 to 18. Which even your best case scenario, is pretty much what we have now.

So the point is - regardless of whether or not we keep the current format, a division with all Sydney teams or a divisions with minimum Sydnry teams in them - Sydney teams will always have that advantage.

So the question is if the difference of only 1 or 2 games at best is worth eliminating more all-Sydney matches up games and replacing them with more Sydney vs Interstate team match ups, which as we all know draw smaller crowds on average. I just don't think the case for equity is worth the hit to attendances.

As for Perth, they're playing at home a maximum of 12 times a year regardless of a league or any kind of division format. They will travel 12+ rounds of the season regardless of what format is adopted, so again why not go with the one that maximises attendances and fan interest?

 

[docbrown]

Perth flying isn’t the concern. Perth will have to fly east every second week regardless. That is the basic cost of entering the competition.

The problem is, the weekly travel advantage Sydney clubs already hold under the current structure, would be even further exacerbated under a conference system that will maximise the number of Sydney/NSW/ACT fixtures they play in a season.

Others were saying that Perth flying was an issue and I responded pretty much the same that it was the reality of joining the comp.

I disagree that an all-Sydney division exacerbates Sydney clubs travel advantage. In what I proposed the Sydney division teams would play 8 games in Sydney home/away teams in their own division. They then play all the other teams in the other divisions once home or away in other 15 games. So that another 7 or 8 games in Sydney. About 16 so far total. Then they can play one other team in another division a second time. If it's a Sydney team, that 17 total. That is pretty much the minimum of what Sydney NRL club play in Sydney each year now. Go look up the draw for every Sydney team for this year if you don't believe me.

But feel free to post your proposed system that drastically reduce the amount of games Sydney teams play in Sydney. Mathematically at best it will still be around 15 or 16 minimum for Sydney teams. That's just how the mathematics of 9 Sydney teams in an 17 to 20 team comp works.

 

[Ideas Man Stephen]

Others were saying that Perth flying was an issue and I responded pretty much the same that it was the reality of joining the comp.

I disagree that an all-Sydney division exacerbates Sydney clubs travel advantage. In what I proposed the Sydney division teams would play 8 games in Sydney home/away teams in their own division. They then play all the other teams in the other divisions once home or away in other 15 games. So that another 7 or 8 games in Sydney. About 16 so far total. Then they can play one other team in another division a second time. If it's a Sydney team, that 17 total. That is pretty much the minimum of what Sydney NRL club play in Sydney each year now. Go look up the draw for every Sydney team for this year if you don't believe me.

But feel free to post your proposed system that drastically reduce the amount of games Sydney teams play in Sydney. Mathematically at best it will still be around 15 or 16 minimum for Sydney teams. That's just how the mathematics of 9 Sydney teams in an 17 to 20 team comp works.

Under your proposal.

4 groups of 5.
Syd 1; Syd 2; North & South.

Play every non group opponent once either home or away.

So Syd 1 will only play interstate against North and South. 10 games. Half home, half away. 5 games away, 5 games in Sydney.

Simple maths has each Sydney team only flying for 5 matches a year.

23 games - 5 = 18 bus trip fixtures for Sydney clubs.

 

[docbrown]

Under your proposal.

4 groups of 5.
Syd 1; Syd 2; North & South.

Play every non group opponent once either home or away.

So Syd 1 will only play interstate against North and South. 10 games. Half home, half away. 5 games away, 5 games in Sydney.

Simple maths has each Sydney team only flying for 5 matches a year.

23 games - 5 = 18 bus trip fixtures for Sydney clubs.

I get it now. We were talking about Sydney teams but you're lumping in Canberra, Newcastle, Dragons games in Wollongong and Sea Eagles games as Gosford under the 'bus trip' banner.

Yes by that logic it would be 18 games in NSW/ACT. Pretty much what NSW/ACT teams in the NRL have right now. So you can't argue that it's worse than what we have now, just the same.

Feel free to post your system where you drastically reduce the number of games for NSW/ACT teams below 18.

Edit: just looked it up for Sydney clubs. By your metric, this year Panthers have 17 bus games, all others have 18 or 19. Sharks have 22! This division structure is at worst the same advantage they have now but actually just slightly better.

 

[greenBV4]

Sydney clubs in the NRL and Melbourne clubs in the AFL already have that bus trip advantage that you're complaining about. It's the mathematical reality of having 9 teams in one city in a 17 team comp. Just look at the draw for any Sydney NRL club this year for evidence.

Say in a best case scenario you get your wish and a Sydney club plays the fewest Sydney games it can by playing Storm, Raiders, Warriors, Knights, Dolphins, Broncos, Titans and Cowboys all away. Well in that case they will still play 16 games out of 24 in Sydney at a minimum. However, it is mathematically impossible to do that for every Sydney team every year. The reality is Sydney teams will play around 16 to 20 Sydney games a year under the current system.

And they will likely continue to do similar to that regardless of how divisions are structured.

For example here's a best case scenario with 4 divisions. At best with 9 Sydney teams and 4 divisions, each division has to have 2 Sydney teams in it and one will have 3. But for a division to play as equitably as possible, a Sydney team should alternate playing the 7 other Sydney teams not in their division home and away each season. So you have to add another 3 or 4 games. So best case scenario is 15 to 16 games in Sydney for each Sydney club. Again though in reality because draws are never perfect, the reality would be anywhere from 14 to 18. Which even your best case scenario, is pretty much what we have now.

So the point is - regardless of whether or not we keep the current format, a division with all Sydney teams or a divisions with minimum Sydnry teams in them - Sydney teams will always have that advantage.

So the question is if the difference of only 1 or 2 games at best is worth eliminating more all-Sydney matches up games and replacing them with more Sydney vs Interstate team match ups, which as we all know draw smaller crowds on average. I just don't think the case for equity is worth the hit to attendances.

As for Perth, they're playing at home a maximum of 12 times a year regardless of a league or any kind of division format. They will travel 12+ rounds of the season regardless of what format is adopted, so again why not go with the one that maximises attendances and fan interest?

So what you've done is identify an inequity we currently have in the draw (albeit an unavoidable one with the number of teams in 1 city) and exacerbate it

why do we even need a conference system? 20 teams would work perfectly fine under the current draw
to make it even fairer you just go each team plays each other once, alternating each year home and away, thats 20 rounds and chuck in a 4 week origin & international break after round 10 to give 24 weeks of H/A, and throw in a 1 week break before the GF to offset anyone missing a GF due to the new concussion rules

 

[Canard]

View attachment 72784
Just to respond to people who think Perth can't be in a division with New Zealand teams, here's a mock draw to show how it could work. Perth will have to travel to New Zealand to play the Warriors regardless of whether they are in a division with them or not. If you schedule it so that they get a bye the week after the impact is negligible.

The NBL and ALeague do it, without any issues.

 

[Ideas Man Stephen]

I get it now. We were talking about Sydney teams but you're lumping in Canberra, Newcastle, Dragons games in Wollongong and Sea Eagles games as Gosford under the 'bus trip' banner.

Yes by that logic it would be 18 games in NSW/ACT. Pretty much what NSW/ACT teams in the NRL have right now. So you can't argue that it's worse than what we have now, just the same.

Feel free to post your system where you drastically reduce the number of games for NSW/ACT teams below 18.

Edit: just looked it up for Sydney clubs. By your metric, this year Panthers have 17 bus games, all others have 18 or 19. Sharks have 22! This division structure is at worst the same advantage they have now but actually just slightly better.

I haven’t researched the bus trips for 2023 and your research is interesting and whilst a little surprising, considering the Sydney/Brisbane centric nature of the current administration, I am guessing this is an improved situation than witnessed in previous seasons. I can’t be bothered to check.

My system for 20 teams is a very simple H&A structure with three mid season Origin weekends back to back as selection for a fourth weekend Kangaroos v winner of Pacific 4 Nations or England.

 

[docbrown]

So what you've done is identify an inequity we currently have in the draw (albeit an unavoidable one with the number of teams in 1 city) and exacerbate it

why do we even need a conference system? 20 teams would work perfectly fine under the current draw
to make it even fairer you just go each team plays each other once, alternating each year home and away, thats 20 rounds and chuck in a 4 week origin & international break after round 10 to give 24 weeks of H/A, and throw in a 1 week break before the GF to offset anyone missing a GF due to the new concussion rules

Exacerbate means to make worse. I just looked up every Sydney team's draw for games in NSW/ACT and this system is actually slightly better. Most have 19 games in NSW/ACT this year.

Also good luck getting broadcast revenue by cutting back the comp to 20 rounds.

 

[docbrown]

I haven’t researched the bus trips for 2023 and your research is interesting and whilst a little surprising, considering the Sydney/Brisbane centric nature of the current administration, I am guessing this is an improved situation than witnessed in previous seasons. I can’t be bothered to check.

My system for 20 teams is a very simple H&A structure with three mid season Origin weekends back to back as selection for a fourth weekend Kangaroos v winner of Pacific 4 Nations or England.

I didn't bother to check until just then and I was confident in my estimate of between 16 to 20 games. Panthers have 17. Sharks have 22. The rest have 18 or 19. So I was right.

How many rounds is your home and away season? It's a bit hard to tell how many games NSW/ACT clubs play in NSW/ACT without knowing the clubs in the league or the number of rounds.

 

[greenBV4]

Exacerbate means to make worse. I just looked up every Sydney team's draw for games in NSW/ACT and this system is actually slightly better. Most have 19 games in NSW/ACT this year.

Also good luck getting broadcast revenue by cutting back the comp to 20 rounds.

Im aware what it means, you are missing the point, regardless of how many times they play in nsw your draw ensures they never play anywhere else - come finals time can you honestly not see this would be a huge advantage against a team from a conference that has left their state every other week

1. f**k the broadcasters just tell them how it is, works for the AFL
2. make up for it with more international games, something sorely missing from the current draws
3. allows for growth without splitting the comp into conferences, (RL doesn't have a good history with split competitions) 22 teams, 22 rounds, 24 24, and so on
4. you can argue the comp goes a bit stale for 3-5 rounds every year anyway, and the RLPA are always going on about player fatigue