What's new
The Front Row Forums

Register a free account today to become a member of the world's largest Rugby League discussion forum! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Blowout scores a bore? Or an opportunity?

Gobsmacked

Bench
Messages
2,649
The Melbourne cup was the race that stops a nation, slowly but surely people are wondering why they bother making time for it because at the end of the day people did it because that's just what everyone did...
The all blacks are in that same sweet spot. Everyone has to watch because everyone else will be watching. People just following the herd and they're used to winning at union.
But Rugby league is much faster and more exciting and if the Kiwis start regularly beating Australia at a sport that is actually popular in Australia, the tide will turn so fast it'll make your head spin!
 

Gobsmacked

Bench
Messages
2,649
Is this a genuine belief of yours? It's very misguided. League is a wee bit of a lull in NZ at the moment. I was talking to some mates back home and they haven't watched even any highlights of the RLWC. I think too with the Holden Cup gone that we're past the peak of NZ schoolboys switching to league in preference to rugby academies.
Of course over the last 3 years union has been going well. It was literally the only sport still operating at a professional level during the pandemic.
 

Matua

Bench
Messages
4,596
Of course over the last 3 years union has been going well. It was literally the only sport still operating at a professional level during the pandemic.
The Warriors games not being in Auckland was really the only difference, and that barely effects 2/3rds of the country. The NRL was still on tv which is where most NZers follow professional league.

Also, to most NZers league isn't faster or more exciting, it just isn't. It's a game with a relatively good fanbase, but a lot of that fanbase are rugby fans also as there's less of a divide than over here between the fandoms.

Also, also, the All Blacks have been awful for going on three years now if there was ever a chance for league to take over it would be now but it appears the opposite is happening going by discussions in the NZ section of the forum: https://forums.leagueunlimited.com/threads/curent-state-of-the-game-in-nz.488274/

Sorry to burst your bubble but you're dreaming on this one.
 

kiwileaguefan

Juniors
Messages
2,426
The Warriors games not being in Auckland was really the only difference, and that barely effects 2/3rds of the country. The NRL was still on tv which is where most NZers follow professional league.

Also, to most NZers league isn't faster or more exciting, it just isn't. It's a game with a relatively good fanbase, but a lot of that fanbase are rugby fans also as there's less of a divide than over here between the fandoms.

Also, also, the All Blacks have been awful for going on three years now if there was ever a chance for league to take over it would be now but it appears the opposite is happening going by discussions in the NZ section of the forum: https://forums.leagueunlimited.com/threads/curent-state-of-the-game-in-nz.488274/

Sorry to burst your bubble but you're dreaming on this one.
Don't waste your breath....I tried explaining how the game here in NZ is on life support...but I am wrong apparently and a troll 👀

The model we have tried over the last two years is playing league before and after Rugby season. It as been a massive success with 8 men's teams, 3 women's and then healthy numbers from u6-u16s.

It's worth noting rugby are having issues too with player retention, but to what level I am u sure. I just know adult playing numbers are declining.
 

taste2taste

Juniors
Messages
1,851
The loss of the U20's Holden Cup would have hurt league in NZ, that was a great path way. I rember when the Warriors were pasting teams by 40 pionts in that comp.

Wouldn't it be great to have Aus V NZ on Anzac Day ? Building a rivalery between the nations would be incredible!! If the Roosters V Dragons can fill a stadium imagine what an Anzac test could do ! Do you think the NRL will let it happen ? Lol
 
Last edited:

Matua

Bench
Messages
4,596
Don't waste your breath....I tried explaining how the game here in NZ is on life support...but I am wrong apparently and a troll 👀

The model we have tried over the last two years is playing league before and after Rugby season. It as been a massive success with 8 men's teams, 3 women's and then healthy numbers from u6-u16s.

It's worth noting rugby are having issues too with player retention, but to what level I am u sure. I just know adult playing numbers are declining.
Yeah, rugby's issue seems to be drop off at school if they don't make 1st XV which contributes to drop off at club level. I don't think there's anything they can do about that, it's the nature of sport these days.

Yeah, when I was at school we played rugby for school on Saturdays and league on Sundays and I reckon 95% of players did both. Probably different in Auckland where players might just concentrate on league.

@taste2taste Agree about the Holden Cup but I think it was the players that spread around the clubs that were as important as the Warriors. Even looking at a guy like Tohu going to the Storm, it was known that he was disappointed at not being offered an academy spot at the Magpies (he made the right decision, I don't think he would have reached the heights in rugby). I met a bunch of young guys with the GC U20s team at a Maori sports function in Palmy who were all earning some cash - I don't think any of them actually made it through to NRL.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
66,053
The main purpose of a World Cup is to grow the game, raise awareness and generate income that can be used to promote the sport to new audiences and territories. The performances of Lebanon and – despite their thrashings in the final group games, Greece and Jamaica – should have done that.

There will always be one-sided scorelines. The bottom seeds have to play the top teams at some point, even if scheduling those games at the end of the groups – when they are low on energy and high on homesickness – seems cruel. Some of last weekend’s results were brutal – England 94-4 Greece, Tonga 92-10 Cook Islands, Lebanon 74-12 Jamaica, Australia 66-6 Italy, and Samoa 62–4 France – but we should not get caught up in hysteria. In several cases, full-time professionals understandably hammered a group of part-timers.

It was no surprise that heroic first-timers Greece conceded 200 points in the group of death. The mainly part-time Cook Islands and Italy both shipped 130, Jamaica 190. Even Scotland, with half a team of full-timers, conceded 142. And yet Wales fought heroically to keep dignity intact throughout a bruising Group D.

Scorelines can be cruel, too. Astonishingly, Jamaica had very nearly 50% of possession against Lebanon; they completed 87% of their 30 sets; and made just seven errors. They knew what they were doing. Likewise, Italy made Australia work hard for their 66 points.

We should be more concerned about France’s team of Super League players falling apart against Samoa, Ireland’s Super League stars failing to cope with a Lebanon side consisting of mainly New South Wales Cup players, and Scotland melting against Australia. The northern hemisphere teams – mainly products of Super League and England’s player development system – have fallen miles behind those hardened in the NRL.

Having a few NRL superstars obviously helps. On Sunday, Jamaica’s team of mainly League 1 players was taken apart by Lebanon trio Mitchell Moses, Adam Doueihi and Josh Mansour, who scored 38 points between them. Jamaica had no one of that quality to call upon yet their contribution was important, not only to the celebratory feel to the event but the growth of the sport.

Jamaica head coach Romeo Monteith and second rower Chevaughn Bailey – a primary school PE teacher from Kingston – spoke after the game about how their appearance at the World Cup would help grow the sport back home, where there were 900 registered players before the pandemic. “People are saying the World Cup should just be five or six nations – that’s rubbish,” said Monteith. “Yes, we’ve had some blowout scores, but tell me a sport that doesn’t. Creating a legacy is what this is about. There are thousands of kids back home looking for an opportunity – the fact that kids are getting offered scholarships to go to university to play rugby league makes this all worthwhile.”

The sport has also kept going in extraordinarily challenging conditions in Lebanon. “They are doing it tough in Lebanon at the moment,” said coach Michael Chieka after his team sealed a quarter-final against Australia. “They’re doing a great job to keep rugby league alive under very, very difficult circumstances. If we can provide more awareness by putting the Cedar tree up against the best in the world, that’s great.”

The dozens of flag-waving, tarbouch or headscarf-wearing Lebanon fans at Leigh Sports Village sitting among the hundreds of Jamaica supporters – including England hero Dom Young, watching brother Alex – clad in green, black and gold, epitomised the possibilities. Many of the Tonga fans following their team have flown in from the US, Netherlands and Germany with little or no knowledge of rugby league. They are at the tournament to be patriotic, see old friends and enjoy themselves.

The World Cup gives international teams a unique opportunity to market the sport. Where else would Lebanese fans rejoice in seeing their national team victorious on a world stage? Having a credible fixture list gives these countries more of a chance to attract eligible top-level players.

There is no denying that many squads are as packed with players born in England or Australia as they were in 2000. Ireland fielded as many homegrown players at this World Cup as they did 22 years ago (one), Scotland the same (none). Forward Gioele Celerino was the only player born and bred in Italy to get on the field for the national team – for 14 minutes – and neither of Lebanon’s two domestic players seem likely to feature now.

But what is the alternative? A World Cup without heritage players would be vastly less appealing and therefore financially disastrous. And there are positive signs that homegrown players will be given more chances in the future. Jamaica gave appearances to five players who learned the game on the island; Greece fielded seven domestic products; four other Italians trained intensely for three weeks and will take that experience back to their clubs.

And it’s not all about the players. Monteith stressed the importance of forthcoming coaching and refereeing development programmes in Jamaica; Italy brought domestic coaches, physios, conditioners and administrators into their camp to experience elite rugby league.

Any criticism of the players and coaches who have competed at the tournament is grossly unfair. They are not guilty of anything other than a love of their country and dedication to a cause. Many have been playing for a decade, some going above and beyond the call of duty. When his work as a software engineer took Greek forward Grigoris Koutsimpogiorgos to Brussels, he commuted to the Netherlands to play for Rotterdam Pitbulls to prepare for his World Cup debut. Celerino moved from north-west Italy to the south of France to pursue his rugby league dream. “It doesn’t matter how much I played – the most important thing is the journey,” he said after facing Australia. “I’ve found the richest things: met lots of people, done lots of great experiences that make me a richer person. We will remember this story for our entire lives.”

 

taste2taste

Juniors
Messages
1,851
The main purpose of a World Cup is to grow the game, raise awareness and generate income that can be used to promote the sport to new audiences and territories. The performances of Lebanon and – despite their thrashings in the final group games, Greece and Jamaica – should have done that.

There will always be one-sided scorelines. The bottom seeds have to play the top teams at some point, even if scheduling those games at the end of the groups – when they are low on energy and high on homesickness – seems cruel. Some of last weekend’s results were brutal – England 94-4 Greece, Tonga 92-10 Cook Islands, Lebanon 74-12 Jamaica, Australia 66-6 Italy, and Samoa 62–4 France – but we should not get caught up in hysteria. In several cases, full-time professionals understandably hammered a group of part-timers.

It was no surprise that heroic first-timers Greece conceded 200 points in the group of death. The mainly part-time Cook Islands and Italy both shipped 130, Jamaica 190. Even Scotland, with half a team of full-timers, conceded 142. And yet Wales fought heroically to keep dignity intact throughout a bruising Group D.

Scorelines can be cruel, too. Astonishingly, Jamaica had very nearly 50% of possession against Lebanon; they completed 87% of their 30 sets; and made just seven errors. They knew what they were doing. Likewise, Italy made Australia work hard for their 66 points.

We should be more concerned about France’s team of Super League players falling apart against Samoa, Ireland’s Super League stars failing to cope with a Lebanon side consisting of mainly New South Wales Cup players, and Scotland melting against Australia. The northern hemisphere teams – mainly products of Super League and England’s player development system – have fallen miles behind those hardened in the NRL.

Having a few NRL superstars obviously helps. On Sunday, Jamaica’s team of mainly League 1 players was taken apart by Lebanon trio Mitchell Moses, Adam Doueihi and Josh Mansour, who scored 38 points between them. Jamaica had no one of that quality to call upon yet their contribution was important, not only to the celebratory feel to the event but the growth of the sport.

Jamaica head coach Romeo Monteith and second rower Chevaughn Bailey – a primary school PE teacher from Kingston – spoke after the game about how their appearance at the World Cup would help grow the sport back home, where there were 900 registered players before the pandemic. “People are saying the World Cup should just be five or six nations – that’s rubbish,” said Monteith. “Yes, we’ve had some blowout scores, but tell me a sport that doesn’t. Creating a legacy is what this is about. There are thousands of kids back home looking for an opportunity – the fact that kids are getting offered scholarships to go to university to play rugby league makes this all worthwhile.”

The sport has also kept going in extraordinarily challenging conditions in Lebanon. “They are doing it tough in Lebanon at the moment,” said coach Michael Chieka after his team sealed a quarter-final against Australia. “They’re doing a great job to keep rugby league alive under very, very difficult circumstances. If we can provide more awareness by putting the Cedar tree up against the best in the world, that’s great.”

The dozens of flag-waving, tarbouch or headscarf-wearing Lebanon fans at Leigh Sports Village sitting among the hundreds of Jamaica supporters – including England hero Dom Young, watching brother Alex – clad in green, black and gold, epitomised the possibilities. Many of the Tonga fans following their team have flown in from the US, Netherlands and Germany with little or no knowledge of rugby league. They are at the tournament to be patriotic, see old friends and enjoy themselves.

The World Cup gives international teams a unique opportunity to market the sport. Where else would Lebanese fans rejoice in seeing their national team victorious on a world stage? Having a credible fixture list gives these countries more of a chance to attract eligible top-level players.

There is no denying that many squads are as packed with players born in England or Australia as they were in 2000. Ireland fielded as many homegrown players at this World Cup as they did 22 years ago (one), Scotland the same (none). Forward Gioele Celerino was the only player born and bred in Italy to get on the field for the national team – for 14 minutes – and neither of Lebanon’s two domestic players seem likely to feature now.

But what is the alternative? A World Cup without heritage players would be vastly less appealing and therefore financially disastrous. And there are positive signs that homegrown players will be given more chances in the future. Jamaica gave appearances to five players who learned the game on the island; Greece fielded seven domestic products; four other Italians trained intensely for three weeks and will take that experience back to their clubs.

And it’s not all about the players. Monteith stressed the importance of forthcoming coaching and refereeing development programmes in Jamaica; Italy brought domestic coaches, physios, conditioners and administrators into their camp to experience elite rugby league.

Any criticism of the players and coaches who have competed at the tournament is grossly unfair. They are not guilty of anything other than a love of their country and dedication to a cause. Many have been playing for a decade, some going above and beyond the call of duty. When his work as a software engineer took Greek forward Grigoris Koutsimpogiorgos to Brussels, he commuted to the Netherlands to play for Rotterdam Pitbulls to prepare for his World Cup debut. Celerino moved from north-west Italy to the south of France to pursue his rugby league dream. “It doesn’t matter how much I played – the most important thing is the journey,” he said after facing Australia. “I’ve found the richest things: met lots of people, done lots of great experiences that make me a richer person. We will remember this story for our entire lives.”

That's a great article. Alot of those that are bashing the WC aren't fans, never were and never will be.

There's alot of frustration at the slow growth of the game internationally but we are trying to do it on a shoe string budget and with out the help of schools and universities like other sports. Using basketball as en example, they took 60 years to have a competitive international competion ( although the USA still wins 99% of the time ) if a sport, with the NBA being a world wide advertisement, took 60 years you have to realistically believe it will take league at least another 50 years until we have a WC that has 10 teams who could win.

It's worth remembering there are alot of sports that don't have enough countries to hold a world cup. We're very lucky to follow one of the few sports on the planet that can hold a world cup.
 

Steve Davy

Juniors
Messages
352
The Melbourne cup was the race that stops a nation, slowly but surely people are wondering why they bother making time for it because at the end of the day people did it because that's just what everyone did...
The all blacks are in that same sweet spot. Everyone has to watch because everyone else will be watching. People just following the herd and they're used to winning at union.
But Rugby league is much faster and more exciting and if the Kiwis start regularly beating Australia at a sport that is actually popular in Australia, the tide will turn so fast it'll make your head spin!
I agree, but perhaps without your optimism.
People who watch sport around the world generally have very little uderstanding of what they are watching. They do not really love the sport that much (how many watch neutral games?) but it is a event.
The other issue that RL being more exciting is not that important is the social issue again. Soccer is dull and the strage thing is the same soccer crowd is surprised every week. But, like baseball or rugby union, there will be a few highlights that make a good supercut in people's memory. So, even if it was only a few moments, they remember an exciting game as we only remember a few moments from games.
I think the world cup really is a great thing. But, I think neither of us think people are very logical?
 

Gobsmacked

Bench
Messages
2,649
I agree, but perhaps without your optimism.
People who watch sport around the world generally have very little uderstanding of what they are watching. They do not really love the sport that much (how many watch neutral games?) but it is a event.
The other issue that RL being more exciting is not that important is the social issue again. Soccer is dull and the strage thing is the same soccer crowd is surprised every week. But, like baseball or rugby union, there will be a few highlights that make a good supercut in people's memory. So, even if it was only a few moments, they remember an exciting game as we only remember a few moments from games.
I think the world cup really is a great thing. But, I think neither of us think people are very logical?
Yeah I agree. The crowds at the WC aren't big as with a lot of league but they're really fans.
We just can't seem to muster the bandwagon effect..
Toronto Wolfpack did! I don't know what they did or how they did it but they did.
Marketing is key. Let’s hope they get that right for France!
 

Jack Deth

Juniors
Messages
233
England get a lot of criticism but we aren't the powerhouse. The aussies are.

The thing is with the aussies is when they go all in, they can make things succeed and sell.

They have managed to keep SOO popular & successful even though its been pretty much one sided since 2006.

NSW have won only four out of the last 17. Is that competitive?

Yet the media, stakeholders still talk it up enough to draw crowds and revenue.

In the same period haven't the Roos lost 3 finals and got beat by Tonga? And of course they sneaked two other finals. One in golden point extra time and another by 6.

However, that's not enough for them to go all in internationally..because you know "its not competitive".
 

Steve Davy

Juniors
Messages
352
Yeah I agree. The crowds at the WC aren't big as with a lot of league but they're really fans.
We just can't seem to muster the bandwagon effect..
Toronto Wolfpack did! I don't know what they did or how they did it but they did.
Marketing is key. Let’s hope they get that right for France!
I agree marketing is key. Rather than sales.
But, my ideas on that are a tad radical :D
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
66,053
For France they need to get plenty of partner hotel groups on board to offer good rates, then market the hell out of it in Oz and england.
 

titoelcolombiano

First Grade
Messages
5,375
Just watched tonga v Samoa. What a cracker. After all the blowouts good to see 2 1/4 finals be a contest.
Agreed, this was always where the tournament was going to catch fire though, the last of the smaller nations went out with Lebanon with just the big boys left. PNG obviously couldn't hang with England but Fiji, Tonga and Samoa really stood up. NZ-Aus & Eng-Samoa will be epic and any possible combination of those four in the final will be amazing.

I'll stick my neck out and say England is going to break the drought. It would be such a NZ thing to do to come out and dominate Australia and then clock off in the final - lol
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
66,053
Whilst small steps we’ve ended up with six clubs competing with each other this RLWC which is better than the usual three dead certs. Tonga or fiji could have easily been in The semis. I was hopi g png may have performed better but their time will come.
 

titoelcolombiano

First Grade
Messages
5,375
Whilst small steps we’ve ended up with six clubs competing with each other this RLWC which is better than the usual three dead certs. Tonga or fiji could have easily been in The semis. I was hopi g png may have performed better but their time will come.
Agree about the competitiveness of the tournament. I think the detractors are missing that point, PNG, Samoa, Tonga and Samoa used to be the minnows getting pumped in the group stages. Those calling for a return to a 10, 12 or 14 team world cup need to remember that sides like France, Wales, the Cook Islands and Ireland could be the ones to build up over the next 20 years of World Cup cycles (hopefully with the assistance of regular tournament and test play outside of a world cup year).

To be fair to PNG, I don't know if any country in the tournament would have hung with that first 35 of England's.

If it was the Kangaroos or Kiwis on the end of it, I'm sure the score line would have been closer but they would still have been in 12-odd point hold at half time.
 

kiwileaguefan

Juniors
Messages
2,426
To be fair to PNG, I don't know if any country in the tournament would have hung with that first 35 of England's.

If it was the Kangaroos or Kiwis on the end of it, I'm sure the score line would have been closer but they would still have been in 12-odd point hold at half time.
To be fair, In the last 12 years PNG have only played Aus (1), NZ (2) and ENG/GB (3). That's not enough games against the top teams for them to develop.

They showed massive improvement at this year's RLWC apart for the first 30mins against England. Though the showed competitiveness in the second 40 which is heartening.
 

taste2taste

Juniors
Messages
1,851
Did you see the Iran V England Football World Cup score ? 6-2

Why do they even bother playing the group stages, it's a joke of a sport.

Wake me up for the semis when the games might actually be competive

Post written in a sarcastic ironic tone :D
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
66,053
Even in soccer, where multi millionaire players struggle to hit the side of a barn, there's blow outs. Nature of pool matches. But RL likes to self flagellate more than most sports.
 

Latest posts

Top