Cross-code Challenge

[CanadianSteve]

Here is a piece from BBC.com on a cross-code match between St Helen's and Sale coming up:

Super League giants St Helens and Zurich Premiership high-flyers Sale will face each other in a unique cross-code contest at Knowsley Road this month. The teams will play one half under rugby league rules and another under union laws. And the winner will be decided by the aggregate score after the full 80 minutes. Initial plans to stage the game were hampered by a lack of a suitable date. <table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=3 width=150 align=right bgcolor=#fffeef border=0> <tbody> <tr> <td>

It will show what players are adaptable to both codes and maybe we can look at a few rugby union players

<br clear=all> Ian Millward
St Helens coach


</td></tr></tbody></table> But Sale's elimination from the Powergen Cup means the match can now be played on 27 January. The North West sides' contest will revive memories of the last meeting of its kind in 1996. Then, Wigan thrashed Bath 82-6 at league but were beaten 44-19 in the return match under union rules. Both clubs have promised to field their strongest possible sides and St Helens have drafted in Gary French, a former hooker with Bath and London Welsh, to assist coach Ian Millward. "It should be a great challenge and all my players are very, very keen on it," Millward said. "We're going to take it very seriously. "It will show what players are adaptable to both codes and maybe we can look at a few rugby union players. "It's going to be very exciting." Cunningham feared career end
Sale and England winger Jason Robinson played in the inaugural challenge for Wigan. And he is looking forward to lining up alongside former Saint Apollo Perelini in the latest hybrid experiment. "Knowsley Road was a happy hunting ground for me in my Wigan days and it will be great to go back there for this unique game," he said.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

It will be very interesting to see, can't wait for the match. Lets see how much things have really changed.

Good to see!

Moffo

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Cross Code challenge - waste of time
Sun Jan 05, 2:14pm (UK)
Written by: Alex Shirvani
The "cross code" challenge between St Helens and Sale RU is a bad idea. There is little for rugby league to gain from such a contest and it is putting a potentially distracting exercise in the way of St Helens preparing for the infinitely more significant World Club Challenge.
The theory is that this will be a "clash of the codes", a superficially fair contest involving 40 minutes league and 40 minutes union to decide which one of the codes is "superior" in skills. In reality the game will prove about as much as a "cricket/soccer" challenge between Lancashire CCC and Manchester United. Each team will win their "half" convincingly.
Some rugby league fans will think that the superiority in the basics of the game, running, passing, tackling for instance, will give them the upper hand in the "union half". This is not the case. The reason union lags behind league as a spectator product is precisely because these aspects of the game are secondary to the "technical" side of the game. Sale will monopolise possession simply because they will win nearly every line out and scrum, allowing them to recycle the ball an unlimited amount of times and wait for the league players, as they inevitably will, to unwittingly infringe one of the union laws and concede a penalty. Up will step the kicker and 3 points will follow. For anyone thinking of going to the game, this is what will happen.
For St Helens to stand a chance they will have to enlist some union coaches and spend the rest of this month focusing entirely on their line out technique, how to ruck and maul, memorising the rules of the game...wasting time that should be used preparing for the World Club Challenge and season ahead. When all's said and done the Saints fans might have a passing interest in this but the game that will count is the clash with the Roosters. Nothing should be distracting them from their preparation.
There is another risk involved here - the very real danger of league forwards suffering injury in a union scrum. Terry O'Connor suffered neck problems for a while after the Wigan-Bath game a few years ago, and union forwards will be very keen to maximise their advantage in scrummaging to force the league pack into difficult positions.
Aside from these factors, what does rugby league actually have to gain from this fixture?
One misguided view is that "it will generate good publicity for league in the pro-union media". Pull the other one! How much publicity did Bradford's walkover victory in the Middlesex Sevens generate? The game was swiftly tucked away in the minor news paragraphs, and the same will happen if Saints do better than expected. However if Saints do badly, the media will waste no time getting a dig in at league's expense.
If the league players do show an aptitude for getting to grips with the union game, we can safely expect some of the Saints players to be playing rugby union sooner rather than later. On the back of the union world cup they are likely to be attracting the interest of sponsors and although not all union clubs are as financially solvent as we are led to believe, there is still enough money there to carry on "poaching" league players. At the very least, the interest of union clubs will be manipulated by players' agents to push league players' salaries up and take money out of the game that could be going towards youth development.
Personally I'm not one of the blind anti-union bigots like some league fans and writers. I believe if we are going to spread the game to areas like Wales especially, some sort of involvement with union would be beneficial. "Cross-code" sevens or nines style games, which are less dependent on technicalities unique to one code and stress aspects of the game which are common to both - give an interesting way for league and union clubs to compete on fairer terms. These games are shorter in duration anyway so it's fairly easy to prepare for, and run a one day tournament. If we wanted to launch a rugby league franchise in Cardiff for instance, how about getting onto the union clubs about a sevens tournament involving teams from the Welsh union clubs, the new league franchise and some league clubs. It would be harmless and generate some interest in league.
However the reason behind my thinking there is not "how can we promote both codes" but "how can we use union to promote league" and the dangerous thing is rugby union people think the same way about promoting union in the north. They have already got footholds with Leeds, Bradford and Wigan. There aren't any union clubs in the south running partnerships with local league Conference sides. A "cross code" fixture in St Helens promotes union in a league area but does nothing to promote league. Union expansionists are looking to use league for their advantage.
Perhaps St Helens will take the game seriously, which will involve putting out a full strength side, risking injury, and setting aside hours of their training time to union rather than preparing for the league season. They will put on a good performance, see union scouts sniffing after their players and see the media give no coverage to the game whatsoever. On the other hand perhaps this fixture has been forced on Ian Millward and the players by people in higher places, and they will put out a weakened side and allow themselves to be run over by Sale. In which case the union media will have more proof of the weakness of league.
But if the game does draw a roaring crowd, and is a good competitive spectacle as some league fans are hoping, it will be a great argument for those who bang on about "merging the codes".
The Saints fans are normally at the forefront of the "100% League" bandwagon, and I hope they will treat this game with the contempt it deserves and boycott the fixture

Credit: www.rleague.com

What a crap article, here is what i wrote on grandstand:

"<span>Mate, i understand that you have a reputation for writing good articles on this website, but your latest one on the cross code challenge is a shocker and one that i strongly disagree with.
Do you not remember the previous cross code challenge involving Bath and Wigan? We won the first game 82-6 and only lost by 44-19 in the return half. It showed the superiority of league players and hopefully saints will get the chance to do it again in a couple of weeks. Its worth a try, if we can put their game down further (after the middlesex sevens), than yes, the game should go ahead
Suggesting that saints fans boycott the fixture?? Oh come on, it will be a great spectacle and im sure that it will draw a good crowd. The saints team will be ready for this game and the fans should get out there to support them. To suggest that fans should booycott their own team is a terrible call
And another point, St Helens have already enlisted the services of an ex union player to help them prepare.
I think we should get behind the league team in the lead up to this match and stop thinking of ways to knock concepts that give the greatest game a chance to shine
Cheers,
Moffo"</span>
<span></span>
<span></span>

 

[Marcus]

Should be quite interesting and a bit of fun.

Not sure it will prove anything to be honest, but its been 7 yrs and why not.

I wonder if this was Sale's idea? They are in the Manchester area and most likely want to increase publicity there.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

"Should be quite interesting and a bit of fun."

Couldn't agree more. It could've came from either side, st helens wanted a warm up match before the world club challenge, so possibly them

Cheers,
Moffo

 

[CanadianSteve]

That article certainly thought of every possible negative point about the match. I agree that it should be interesting; I won't see it but I look forward about reading about it.

I do think the writer had a point about the scrums, and the idea of sevens being a better way to bring the 2 codes together. I seem to recall that in the Wigan-Bath match in 96, they ended up using "depowered" or uncontested scrums in the union game. Does anyone know if that's right, and is there any plan to do that this time?

Why do all the cross-code events seem to happen in England? Is the bad feeling between the 2 codes' ruling bodies greater in Aus, so they would never co-operate on anything? If a similar match was arranged between an NRL side and a S12 side, would it draw interest from fans?

 

[bender]

My recollection of the first challenge (from newspaper reports) was that Wigan went easy in the union game and did not play to full intensity.Sale,threw the ball around and apparently did not revert to a forwards posession style game.

However, it should be remembered that Wigan were undoubtedly the best league team in Britain and probably the world at the time. They also had at least 5 or 6 union exinternationals including at least a couple of forwards. I am not sure howBath were in union, but i am pretty sure they were nowhere near as dominant as the old Wigan. And also,from memory, England at the time were not as strong in union asthey seem to be now.

St Helens, with due respect,despite being World Champions arenowhere near as dominant as Wigan were. Therefore, one would expect that this match may be more dangerous for St Helens than the last challenge and they will need to be 100% switched on to win, which i expect them to.

I agree that it should be interesting, although personally i would prefer to see the lebanese, Tongan or Papua New Guineanrugby leagueswipe the floor with the Italians, Argentinians, and Scottish union teams and thus shatter the union global game myth.

 

[CanadianSteve]

I also remember reading that some union people were impressed with the fitness and professionalism of Wigan in 96. Not sure if that was in the matches with Bath or in Wigan's win at the Middlesex 7's that year. But that was when union had just turned professional. Now they have been professional for 6-7 years. I wonder if they will be closer to the league players in fitness now because of their full-time professional training.

I do recall reading recently that Johnny Wilkinson was impressed by the intensity of Jason Robinson's training when Robinson came over from league. BTW, Robinson may play for Sale in this cross-code match, while he played for Wigan in the 96 ones.

 

[Marcus]

I'm not too sure if both sides will field their best team.

With Sale they are no.2 or 3 on the ZP ladder and I think their focus would be on winning the ZP. Why risk injury with their star players playing a meaningless game - it could jeopardize their run for the title.

 

[ali]

I don't really think it will prove much, and tend to agree with Jiffy that League has more to lose than gain.
Here's a good article from the Guardian in England. Apparently the author is a current rah rah.
Robinson is just the man to revel, and unravel the cross-code
Thomas Castaignède
Monday January 6, 2003
The Guardian
I'll be watching the cross-code match between Sale and St Helens on January 27. In fact, I can't wait, partly because these occasions are a good way to bring the two sides of rugby closer, and partly because it's a chance to watch Jason Robinson operating in both codes. Hopefully he'll keep up the form he showed for Sale on Friday night - in that 70-metre try he did a good impersonation of a billiard ball, bouncing round one defender, then another.
I adore league. It's a great spectacle. I love the way that it's full-on all the time, with so few breaks in play. Union is more like cricket; in fact it seems more British as a sport. You're a beer-drinking nation, and while a scrum is being reset you have time to drink a pint, burp, kiss your wife and return to watching play. If you tried that in league you'd throw your pint over the guy sitting behind you.
The Sale-St Helens encounter will, of course, highlight the differences. I remember a match a few years ago between Wigan and Bath which was basically a draw. The actual contest, though, wasn't really the issue. It wasn't a question of who was better: what fascinated me was watching the players from each code trying to come to terms with the other. The defences may be similar now, but that's as far as it goes: union calls for greater power, as well as the set-piece skills, while league players have more stamina because of the multiple phases.
And there's the fact that in league you target a single player and try to wear him down; in union, it's a question of wearing down a whole team, as Leicester did to us on Saturday. Matches are won by individual error in league; in union defeat is collective.
It's always intriguing watching the players who have moved over from league to union. They have one thing in common going for all of them: they make fewer mistakes because they understand the importance of retaining the ball.
In league it's vital. They've all had to run extra laps of the pitch in training when they were young, and it's stuck. It's a great thing to have drummed into you.
More specifically, they fall into three categories. Robinson is in a class of his own, a little tornado who can turn a match even though physically he isn't at a level higher than the players around him. He's just so intelligent in the way he plays, and he'd probably shine at anything, even basketball in spite of his height.
Then there are the physical monsters like "Freddie" Tuilagi at Leicester and Apollo Perelini at Sale, who get on fine in union because of their size. If you're 100 kilos you can just take the ball and get on with playing, even if the rules are slightly different.
Finally, you have the Henry Paul and Iestyn Harris category. They take longer to make the cross-over, because they have to organise the players around them, and the different rules matter more. It's harder to make those split-second decisions, which come automatically. In Paul and Harris's cases, it will merely take time.
It's just a pity that the sport is split, because there are so many good players in both codes, and you just want to watch them all competing under a single umbrella. If rugby as a whole is to expand and take on soccer in the long term, there needs to be a rapprochement .
In Britain, at least, they are regional sports - that's only too clear if you contrast the crowds that turn up in Leeds to watch the city's respective teams, or compare London Broncos and Wasps. So either code will get on top in the long term, or over, say, the next 20 years, they will draw closer together. In some ways, league has taken on economic reality more quickly than union; in playing the same season in the northern and southern hemisphere, for example. We've already learned from league in promotional terms, putting in a bit more razzmatazz around the game.
How will the Sale-St Helens match end? The only thing that you can say with any certainty is that Robinson will be the best player on the pitch - in both halves. St Helens aren't used to lineouts or scrums, so they will lack ball when they play union, but as soon as they string a few passes together, Sale will be calling for the oxygen masks.

 

[CanadianSteve]

That seems a fair analysis of the differences betweeen the 2 games, and the types of players.

How about this part?: It's just a pity that the sport is split, because there are so many good players in both codes, and you just want to watch them all competing under a single umbrella. If rugby as a whole is to expand and take on soccer in the long term, there needs to be a rapprochement .

Do any league fans here agree with that?

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

"It's just a pity that the sport is split, because there are so many good players in both codes, and you just want to watch them all competing under a single umbrella. If rugby as a whole is to expand and take on soccer in the long term, there needs to be a rapprochement ."

No, because union will dominate the merger, control the rules changes and it will come up as league being more or less absorbed into union

From the article:

" I remember a match a few years ago between Wigan and Bath which was basically a draw"

Bullshit. Wigan won their half 82-6 and Bath only won 44-19. Basically a draw? Typical union slant

Moffo

 

[Marcus]

I actually think a merger will happen where either side likes it or not.

League had free reign over union when union was amateur. Now that union has money (and more of it) it will mean that league will continually lose players to union. Money speaks in this day and age (though not entirely true), and economic factors will mean union's buying power will continually increase at a higher rate than that of league.

 

[bender]

If a merger were to take place (assuming unrealisticallyit was accepted by everyone), it would not mean that the new game would be ready to take over the world on a global basis.

The strength of union is the international game, but how strong would that international game be when theKangaroos stand head and shouldersabove the rest (with the possible exception of England). The union WC would be less open than it is now. In fact it would have as many likely winners as the current league World Cup and over time this would devalue the world Cup tournament. Sides like Scotland, Argentina, Ireland, Tonga etc would be no match whatsoever for the Kangaroos and would probably face cricket scores.Contrast this to now, where these lesser nationsdo have a slight chance, no matter how slim that may be.

For union, assuming that most of their fans and players prefer that game, there is absolutely nothing whatsoever to gain other than inAustralia, where clubs like Parramatta St George etc would be beneficial, and in England where the big 5 clubs would provide good players, there is nothing to be gained. At best, England would keep track with the Aussies and Kiwis who wouldboth be strengthened, but South Africa and France wouldbecome second tier clubs with the game presumably being damaged in these countries in the long term, as a result.

If you considerit like this, union has more to fear than league, from a merger. For league, a merger could mean that they get theimmediate infrastructure to build from in many far flung countries and a merger would givethem the headstart they need in these countries. At worst, France, South Africa, Scotland, Wales Tonga etc would be strengthened. At best, the game could use the union platform to take over the world.

Of course, this all assumes that fans of both games would support the other which is unrealistic.For mine, the best idea for a merger would be for the sports to share resources marketing etcwith both games remaining different and distinct and where possible playing in different seasons,with players encouraged to compete in both (at an amaeur level). I believe that League and Union have more to gain from each other being competive sports thanthey have from destroying each other.

 

[imported_Mystery_Man]

I actually think a merger will happen where either side likes it or not.
League had free reign over union when union was amateur. Now that union has money (and more of it) it will mean that league will continually lose players to union. Money speaks in this day and age (though not entirely true), and economic factors will mean union's buying power will continually increase at a higher rate than that of league.

I agree that this is definitely a possibility, but I wander how much support one code of rugby would get. Realistically, it would just be a union take over of league, and while league would still exist, all the best players would be playing union. The problem would be that a lot of league supporters would not support union, and would probably turn to AFL. You only have to look at the Super League war to see how fansreacted to such an occurence.

 

[Marcus]

MM, you have a point about supporters not crossing over... but I wonder how long their patience will last when they realise the quality of gameplay is dropping due to the most talented players crossing to the other code.

Also, as union's buying power increases as well as status to higher levels than that of league... then its quite likely father's who would normally steer their son(s) to play league will direct them to union because their are more opportunities... like money and places to play the game. Frier and Henjack(?) whose fathers played league actually encourage their sons to stick with union because they felt there are more opportunities.

 

[imported_kier]

By that arguement everyone in the world would play soccer.

People don't take up sports because of the potential for a pay-day.

Also, neither code can afford to buy out the other - SKY didn't have the cash to buy the ARL, I can't see the ARU doing it!

Also, the Welsh RU didn't collapse when huge numbers of players took the opportunity to receive recompense for their effort. The irony is that it took an age of fair competition between the codes to cause real problems fro the WRU.

 

[ali]

I always laugh when Union types say that if the codes get together then we can challenge soccer. A stat I always fall back on is the one that says Manchester United has more World wide supporters than Rugby Union. If Union and League were to ever merge, I can't see much good coming of it.

 

[Willow]

To draw an analogy, it like a Sydney vs Melbourne thing. Here we have two cities which share similar laws and speak a 'similar' language and enjoy similar eating habits. For some reason, both cities want to compete with each other but in reality they are distinctive and proud and have made their marks in the their own right. They survive quite well withoutany influence from the other.

Rugby League and Rugby Union are the same. They are two sports which enjoy healthy followings and although the similarities are there, they still maintain their own cultures.

IMHO, there is room for both sports and any talk of mergers are just there as a 'downsizing' measure.

 

[Gav-bt]

Bender- "St Helens, with due respect,despite being World Champions arenowhere near as dominant as Wigan were. Therefore, one would expect that this match may be more dangerous for St Helens than the last challenge and they will need to be 100% switched on to win, which i expect them to."

With all due respect. Wigan were the only British club worthy of any mention prior to full time professionalism. Hasn't it clicked as to why their domination came to a shuddering halt after Super League?

Onto this match up. I see no gains for RL or St Helens. The only gain for anyone would be if Sale were to dominate Saints in the League half. Whatever happens in the union half, excuses will be ready made by the union biased media.

These matches serve only to show how the media control our lives.