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Fans get their game back

Jankuloski

Juniors
Messages
799
You're being pesimistic. You're alarmist when you actually alarm someone...

Soo.. what's stopping the clubs now from withholding a player from origin or tests?
 
Messages
11,840
Rugby League will be left behind. In 20 years time we will have not moved too much from where we are now if at all. All the other codes will have grown and league will have not. Population growth into other area of Australia will mean the likes of vic rules will havelarge supporter bases in all the main population areas of the country and Rugby League will still have 2. Adelaide and Perth will eventually be as big as Sydney and Brisbane and we wont have a presence there.

16 clubs given all this power will mean the death of SOO. Not immediately but eventually. Just watch as we see a trickle of excuses why such and such player isnt available until its a flood.

Once upon a time players would lie their backsides off and cover up injuries to get on a Kangaroo tour. Not so now. Sure its still prestigious but players arent busting their balls to get on the plane. Origin will go the same way.

The once great and glorious game that defined and epitomised the Australian character will be a shadow of its former self.


Or am I being alarmist?




While I understand your mistrust of the clubs, I still think players will want to play REP footy as it increases their profile and attracts bigger marketing potential/contracts down the road. Joey for example attracted (outside of Newcastle) a following because of his exploits for NSW and Australia. He wouldn't have been quite the star he became if he just stuck with the Knights nor earn as much. Self interest is as strong among the players as it is with the clubs. Also Perth and Adelaide are the driest capital cities in the country. I doubt the growth potential you're fearing.
 
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maccattack

Juniors
Messages
1,250
While I understand your mistrust of the clubs, I still think players will want to play REP footy as it increases their profile and attracts bigger marketing potential/contracts down the road. Joey for example attracted (outside of Newcastle) a following because of his exploits for NSW and Australia. He wouldn't have been quite the star he became if he just stuck with the Knights nor earn as much. Self interest is as strong among the players as it is with the clubs. Also Perth and Adelaide are the driest capital cities in the country. I doubt the growth potential you're fearing.

But money talks doesnt it. Maybe job security will be more important to the players. if a club boss says "I want you to skip Origin this year coz we have a real chance at winning the premiership. If you want your contract renewed next year you better do as I ask" (kinda thing).


Where are all these people who we are told are flooding into the country gonna go? They wont all end up in Rugby League states. Cheaper housing can be found in SA and WA so those states will start to catch up. Melbourne is near bursting point already. Trust me, Ive seen a massive difference here over the last 12 months.
 

Jankuloski

Juniors
Messages
799
Now you're just making stuff up. The said player is chosen to play origin - he's a top player. A club that would kick him out for playing Origin would be a club with no top players in their squad sooner than you can say "paranoia".

If Paramatta would try that on Hayne - how many clubs would raise their hand to have him onboard?
 

macavity

Referee
Messages
20,400
The more I think about this, the more reservations I have.

It needs to be done - I'm just concerned we aren't going to get it right - particularly if there is any potential for clubs to have much of a say at all, and if the model basically prevents accumulating capital or expansion - massive risks.

We need the right - passionate and capable - commissioners, with near 100% control, long tenure (say 5 years) and no option of re-appointment.

Takes appeasement and pandering right out of the equation.

We also need our governance structures to be tighter than a fishes butthole - the role and powers of the commission, and the clubs, needs to be 100% clear.

I would also contend that this new "all clubs are sacrosanct" attitude is going to be a problem. Some clubs are strategically important and should be perpetuated - some simply aren't so important and may well be warming a seat that could be better used......
 

Quidgybo

Bench
Messages
3,052
Soo.. what's stopping the clubs now from withholding a player from origin or tests?
Release of players would be a condition of their license agreement to play in the NRL. If they refused to release a selected player then the NRL would have the ultimate power to cancel that team's license and re-issue it to another team. Not a smart move while there are so many bidders knocking on the door waiting for a spot to open up in the competition. Realistically the only way clubs wouldn't be compelled to surrender players would be if a future ARL Commission decided to remove that condition from the license agreement.

Leigh.
 

maccattack

Juniors
Messages
1,250
yeah im making stuff up or clutching at straws or whatever. im playing devils advocate.

What Quidgybo says is the right way to go about it. But is that what is going to happen or just your suggestion?

Actually, could you really see the NRL cutting a club for witholding players????

Im sure they could come up with any number of "valid" reasons.
 

Jankuloski

Juniors
Messages
799
No one still answered the question: Right now - what is stopping clubs from saying to a player: you can't play origin.
 

El Diablo

Post Whore
Messages
94,107
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...he-answer-for-rugby-league-20091203-k8su.html

An independent commission is not the answer for rugby league
ROY MASTERS
December 4, 2009

The NSWRL and QRL could fall further down the pecking order under the new NRL model.

Once more I am being told to go sit in the rocking chair by the window, sip a cup of warm milk, nibble an Arrowroot biscuit and keep my nose out of the game I love.

Well, I am staring out the window, trying to read the future and I don't like the shape of the independent commission being thrust upon rugby league.

''The AFL and NFL are two competitions that are built on a similar model and look how successful those organisations are,'' declared Sydney Roosters chairman Nick Politis in the Herald this week.

The NFL doesn't have representative football, apart from a meaningless all-stars game played a week after the annual Super Bowl. The Super Bowl winners call themselves ''world champions'' even though the competition is played only by 32 teams from US cities.

NFL Europe, a competition involving clubs such as the Barcelona Dragons and the London Monarchs, was abandoned in 2007 because it was costing the billionaire owners of the NFL's franchises too much money. Nor does the NFL pay for development. The US college system prepares players for the professional league.

The AFL's representative program is restricted to an annual game with Ireland, played with a round ball and a net. Its State of Origin series was abandoned more than a decade ago when AFL coaches convinced their players to stand down for fear they would be injured and miss club matches. The AFL Commission meekly surrendered to pressure from the clubs and killed off Origin football.

Rugby league's most valued property is its annual three-game NSW-Queensland series. International rugby league has also finally become competitive and TV networks are willing to pay for it.

Overseas TV earnings are potentially the fastest growing source of money for the code, especially with all three free-to-air networks in Australia channelling every dollar of profit into redeeming debt.

Yet rugby league appears willing to allow NRL clubs to vote on the commissioners and therefore determine the future of Origin and international football, justifying it by citing the success of two codes that don't have representative programs.

Under the independent commission model being promoted, the NSWRL and QRL would become second-tier feeder leagues dependent on the central body for funding. Similarly, all revenue coming into Australia from Test matches would pour into the commission pot, leaving the Kangaroos to rely on hand-outs.

So, when I stare into the future, past all the fellow fossils of my era, such as dinosaur bones and evidence of global cooling, I see Russell Crowe's jet taxiing down the runway of Sydney's second airport, loaded with the owners of the NRL's privately owned clubs. They are off to Rusty's ranch in Coffs Harbour to discuss their candidates for the Independent Commission.

Representatives of the Delmege and Penn families sit at opposite ends of the plane but they agree on one thing: the private owners must support a commissioner who will increase the NRL's annual distribution to the 16 clubs.

Because NRL broadcasting income is fixed, sponsorships locked in and the gate takings of finals series unlikely to rise, any increase to the clubs must come from cuts in the grants to the QRL, NSWRL, junior development and the international program.

The NRL clubs are struggling to make ends meet. Rusty fell out with Peter Holmes a Court, his co-owner of Souths, when asked to tip in $5 million to cover the Rabbitohs' debts way back in 2007. Ditto the acrimony of the Delmeges and Penns when they argued over how much each was contributing to cover the Sea Eagles' losses.

The AFL's Gold Coast team is biting into revenues of the privately owned Titans club. The private owners are sufficiently numerous to lobby a few commissioners to do their bidding.

Like the Sea Eagles, the Rabbitohs and the Titans, the Warriors are also privately owned and the Storm will be purchased by a consortium of Melbourne businessmen when News Ltd relinquishes control. News Ltd also owns 67 per cent of the Broncos, the NRL's only publicly listed club. With six of the 16 clubs privately owned, their owners have collective clout.

Crowe has already lamented the absence of an NRL owners' collective and has criticised the central administration's revenue-raising activities, including sale of TV rights.

The inaugural independent commission will fund state leagues and development because the ARL will nominate four representatives, along with News Ltd's four. It will make a mockery of the word ''independent'' but will at least ensure ''the people'' - as a News Ltd paper piously said last week - ''get their game back'', albeit temporarily. As commissioners retire, or find their workloads onerous, the private owners will exercise more control.

Roosters director Mark Bouris has been tipped as a future commissioner, yet he bailed out of the Crawford committee when his commitments became too great.

The four Crawford people left included three with close AFL ties and their recommendation on the future of the $130 million Active After Schools and Community program is a replica of the AFL's submission.

The AFL, which has no privately owned clubs, does invest heavily in junior development.

Time will tell if rugby league junior development and representative football is ignored, as time followed the first gentle suggestion I should retire to a rocking chair.

Nearly 20 years ago, when the game was rushing to full-time training and players were abandoning their jobs and tertiary studies, I warned they would have too much time on their hands.

Now former St George captain Mark Coyne has surveyed the behavioural problems in the NRL and concluded most ''atrocities'' are associated with players who have no part-time work or tertiary studies.

I loathe writing, ''I told you so pieces'' and using the personal pronoun but someone needs to warn the code of an independent commission based on models that have no representative football, or on an American system that has no responsibility for junior development.

I support the idea of an independent commission but not in this proposed form. You can be in favour of a republic, an emissions trading scheme, yet disapprove of the model.
 

El Diablo

Post Whore
Messages
94,107
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...en-running-the-game-cullen-20091203-k8sv.html

Clubs don't want 'yes men' running the game: Cullen
GREG PRICHARD
December 4, 2009

BRISBANE chief executive Bruno Cullen says NRL clubs don't want to see ''yes men'' appointed to an independent commission to run the game - they want people who are going to tell the clubs what to do and not be pushed around.

After the clubs voted against expansion of the competition over the next few years at this week's annual chief executives' conference, it was suggested they might prefer a commission that could be manipulated.

''The suggestion was that the clubs, by deciding expansion was not on the agenda at the moment, were acting purely out of self interest,'' Cullen said yesterday. ''That is probably right in a sense, but only because that self interest is to do with the game at large. It's about ensuring we continue with a quality competition in which all the teams currently involved are able to survive.

''The clubs don't want to be trying to tell an independent commission what to do. Too many people with self interests have been involved in the past. If we're to have an independent commission, it must have genuine credibility.''

News Limited and the Australian Rugby League, current partners in the ownership of the game, would decide who would sit on the commission. Cullen said he was deeply encouraged by the quality of potential candidates.

''The names that have been floating around are very impressive,'' he said. ''Geoff Dixon, James Strong [both former Qantas chiefs]. [Harvey Norman Holdings chairman] Gerry Harvey, [Harvey Norman chief executive] Katie Page, [retiring BHP Billiton chairman] Don Argus … I don't know if any of them have been approached about the possibility or asked to sit on a commission, but they are the sort of quality of person that have been mentioned.

''People like that aren't going to be pushed around by NRL officials. They are going to make their own minds up, and that is what the clubs would want them to do. We don't want to see yes men appointed. We want people with new ideas who are going to use their professional backgrounds and business acumen to make good decisions.

''The clubs don't want to try to tell people like that what to do - they want those people to tell the clubs what to do. That's the only way an independent commission would have genuine credibility, and if you appoint the right people and they make the right decisions for the game then everyone involved is going to be better off. If you appoint yes men you're not going to have credibility, and the game won't move forward.''

The Broncos were a driving force behind the Super League war against the ARL in the mid-1990s, but Cullen said he would accept it if ARL chairman Colin Love was the commission's first chairman.

''He is a man with a wealth of experience in the game, and if his appointment helps the process then I would be very relaxed with that,'' he said.

Cullen said he was confident whatever hurdles were left in the way of the commission being formed could be cleared.

''I don't know what's going on in discussions behind close doors between the people most heavily involved in all of this, but the mood seems to be right for it to happen,'' he said. ''I'm confident it will happen. Not everything is always hunky-dory or smooth sailing in things like this, but the indications we've been getting are good.

''People were talking about a result before the end of the year, but I'm not sure about that. It might even turn out that it's not yet in place before the season starts, but I think there's a good chance for it to happen early in the new year.''
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
66,707
If the clubs don't want yes men why have the clubs invovled in voting whose on at all?

Also if the clubs aren't going to be pressuring the commision, why do things like take a vote on expansion then broadcast it to the media?
 

Jankuloski

Juniors
Messages
799
And what is your proposition? That they be ordained by the gods?

Every organisation ususally has a main board and a supervisory board. Why would we have that, when it's the same organisation in question? Everyone has their place and their tasks. The Comission will have a task to do what's best in the interest of RL. It is a job of the clubs to say what's good for them. That vote is not binding in any way.

Bottom line - considering the clubs receive the profits, if they get more after the comission then before they'll shut up pretty soon.
 

Quidgybo

Bench
Messages
3,052
No one still answered the question: Right now - what is stopping clubs from saying to a player: you can't play origin.
I did answer it when I said...

Release of players would be a condition of their license agreement to play in the NRL. If they refused to release a selected player then the NRL would have the ultimate power to cancel that team's license and re-issue it to another team. Not a smart move while there are so many bidders knocking on the door waiting for a spot to open up in the competition. Realistically the only way clubs wouldn't be compelled to surrender players would be if a future ARL Commission decided to remove that condition from the license agreement.
The NRL's power of financial sanction against teams stops them from preventing players going to Origin. The NRL provide most of the money for clubs thru their centralised source of television funding. If a club breaches their license agreement by breaking the condition to release players then the NRL could take any of a range of actions including withholding part or all of their annual grant up to ejecting them from the comp altogether. There's not a club in the comp that could refuse in the face of financial oblivion. The NRL holds the purse strings and the clubs have to toe the line. That's why they can't refuse to release players.

Leigh.
 
Last edited:

Jankuloski

Juniors
Messages
799
Sorry, got mixed up with tenses, I thought you ment it in future tense as in how would it work.

Ok then. I suppose the new comission would have the power to sanction clubs as well. Let's take the sallary cap as an example. If a team is in breach of the salary cap, it's not the other clubs that are going to sanction it - that would be absurd. So I see no reason for it not to work under the comission as well.

Leigh?
 

lturner

Juniors
Messages
235
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...he-answer-for-rugby-league-20091203-k8su.html

Proposed model is not the answer for rugby league
ROY MASTERS

December 5, 2009
The NSWRL and QRL could fall further down the pecking order under the new NRL model.
Once more I am being told to go sit in the rocking chair by the window, sip a cup of warm milk, nibble an Arrowroot biscuit and keep my nose out of the game I love.
Well, I am staring out the window, trying to read the future and I don't like the shape of the independent commission being thrust upon rugby league.
''The AFL and NFL are two competitions that are built on a similar model and look how successful those organisations are,'' declared Sydney Roosters chairman Nick Politis in the Herald this week.
The NFL doesn't have representative football, apart from a meaningless all-stars game played a week after the annual Super Bowl. The Super Bowl winners call themselves ''world champions'' even though the competition is played only by 32 teams from US cities.
NFL Europe, a competition involving clubs such as the Barcelona Dragons and the London Monarchs, was abandoned in 2007 because it was costing the billionaire owners of the NFL's franchises too much money. Nor does the NFL pay for development. The US college system prepares players for the professional league.
The AFL's representative program is restricted to an annual game with Ireland, played with a round ball and a net. Its State of Origin series was abandoned more than a decade ago when AFL coaches convinced their players to stand down for fear they would be injured and miss club matches. The AFL Commission meekly surrendered to pressure from the clubs and killed off Origin football.
Rugby league's most valued property is its annual three-game NSW-Queensland series. International rugby league has also finally become competitive and TV networks are willing to pay for it.
Overseas TV earnings are potentially the fastest growing source of money for the code, especially with all three free-to-air networks in Australia channelling every dollar of profit into redeeming debt.
Yet rugby league appears willing to allow NRL clubs to vote on the commissioners and therefore determine the future of Origin and international football, justifying it by citing the success of two codes that don't have representative programs.
Under the independent commission model being promoted, the NSWRL and QRL would become second-tier feeder leagues dependent on the central body for funding. Similarly, all revenue coming into Australia from Test matches would pour into the commission pot, leaving the Kangaroos to rely on hand-outs.
So, when I stare into the future, past all the fellow fossils of my era, such as dinosaur bones and evidence of global cooling, I see Russell Crowe's jet taxiing down the runway of Sydney's second airport, loaded with the owners of the NRL's privately owned clubs. They are off to Rusty's ranch in Coffs Harbour to discuss their candidates for the Independent Commission.
Representatives of the Delmege and Penn families sit at opposite ends of the plane but they agree on one thing: the private owners must support a commissioner who will increase the NRL's annual distribution to the 16 clubs.
Because NRL broadcasting income is fixed, sponsorships locked in and the gate takings of finals series unlikely to rise, any increase to the clubs must come from cuts in the grants to the QRL, NSWRL, junior development and the international program.
The NRL clubs are struggling to make ends meet. Rusty fell out with Peter Holmes a Court, his co-owner of Souths, when asked to tip in $5 million to cover the Rabbitohs' debts way back in 2007. Ditto the acrimony of the Delmeges and Penns when they argued over how much each was contributing to cover the Sea Eagles' losses.
The AFL's Gold Coast team is biting into revenues of the privately owned Titans club. The private owners are sufficiently numerous to lobby a few commissioners to do their bidding.
Like the Sea Eagles, the Rabbitohs and the Titans, the Warriors are also privately owned and the Storm will be purchased by a consortium of Melbourne businessmen when News Ltd relinquishes control. News Ltd also owns 67 per cent of the Broncos, the NRL's only publicly listed club. With six of the 16 clubs privately owned, their owners have collective clout.
Crowe has already lamented the absence of an NRL owners' collective and has criticised the central administration's revenue-raising activities, including sale of TV rights.
The inaugural independent commission will fund state leagues and development because the ARL will nominate four representatives, along with News Ltd's four. It will make a mockery of the word ''independent'' but will at least ensure ''the people'' - as a News Ltd paper piously said last week - ''get their game back'', albeit temporarily. As commissioners retire, or find their workloads onerous, the private owners will exercise more control.
Roosters director Mark Bouris has been tipped as a future commissioner, yet he bailed out of the Crawford committee when his commitments became too great.
The four Crawford people left included three with close AFL ties and their recommendation on the future of the $130 million Active After Schools and Community program is a replica of the AFL's submission.
The AFL, which has no privately owned clubs, does invest heavily in junior development.
Time will tell if rugby league junior development and representative football is ignored, as time followed the first gentle suggestion I should retire to a rocking chair.
Nearly 20 years ago, when the game was rushing to full-time training and players were abandoning their jobs and tertiary studies, I warned they would have too much time on their hands.
Now former St George captain Mark Coyne has surveyed the behavioural problems in the NRL and concluded most ''atrocities'' are associated with players who have no part-time work or tertiary studies.
I loathe writing, ''I told you so pieces'' and using the personal pronoun but someone needs to warn the code of an independent commission based on models that have no representative football, or on an American system that has no responsibility for junior development.
I support the idea of an independent commission but not in this proposed form. You can be in favour of a republic, an emissions trading scheme, yet disapprove of the model.
 

macavity

Referee
Messages
20,400
gotta agree that it is troubling having private companies, motivated by profit - having a big say in running an organisation that should have profit way way down the list of priorities... right above expanding the competition to antarctica....
 

lturner

Juniors
Messages
235
Masters is absolutely spot on here.

He is not saying that he doesn't want an independent body to run the NRL - he is just saying that there is no reason that body should have control of representative football as well.

So true. There are many aspects to the game. At the elite level, there's club football, state and country representative football. Then there is grassroots/development at junior and senior levels, both club and representative.

At any time, the interests of each part of the game might not necessarily be aligned, they can often be in conflict.

So to give power and control of ALL revenues from the game to the elite clubs, it will inevitably mean that over time the interests of the elite clubs will gradually rise at the expense of other parts of the game. Anyone who cannot recognise this is naive.
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
13,531
Masters is absolutely spot on here.

He is not saying that he doesn't want an independent body to run the NRL - he is just saying that there is no reason that body should have control of representative football as well.


I don't think that that is to exactly right mate. What he is saying is that a model where it is the clubs that nominate the board commissioners is not the ideal structure. The commission needs to be independent of the clubs own selfish interests and if they are the sole selectors of that board, then that is highly improbable.
 

lturner

Juniors
Messages
235
I don't think that that is to exactly right mate. What he is saying is that a model where it is the clubs that nominate the board commissioners is not the ideal structure. The commission needs to be independent of the clubs own selfish interests and if they are the sole selectors of that board, then that is highly improbable.

Yes, fair point.

However re-reading his piece, I don't think he is necessarily suggesting what you have written either.

Masters has said that a commmision with complete control elected by the NRL clubs is not the answer, but he hasn't said what he thinks is a better solution.

IMO, the best arrangement would be for the clubs to have control over the NRL competition, via the new commission.

Rep footy and deveopment should still be controlled by the state and national bodies, and revenues from rep games should stay with these bodies.
 

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