Fears 2025 RLWC USA may not happen

[Pommy]

Yeah you're right, what's a game in the bush going to achieve? What is Origin in Perth going to achieve? What is a team in Toronto going to achieve? What is the Denver Test going to achieve? I said taking games to the islands is about spreading the game - what it will achieve is it will spread the game, the same reason we take games to literally anywhere else.

The big name players playing for Tonga has greatly expanded rugby league's popularity in Tonga. Just the team going there is great for Tongan locals. A game in Tonga will help cement league in the heart of the Tongan locals - the same way the Tonga v Australia game helped league's popularity amongst the Tongans in Auckland - as well as providing a boost in popularity and the fight against Union given that Union has never had a World Cup game in Tonga. But wait, it might not make money so I know a better way to cash-in on our new-found popularity in Tonga - let's not have a game there for the next 20 years and hope the hype has faded away and we don't have to deal with it.

Should we just forget about Tonga since they are too small and can't make us any money? Keep playing Tonga in Western Sydney and that's it?

Not to mention it makes some sense for Tonga to play IN Tonga?

Nice rant to a simple question.

What tangible benefit will are you expecting from this game in Tonga? At the moment you’re just ranting about a lot of stuff not even related to the question so I will let you try again in a more constructive manor.
I didn’t give an opinion either way, just asked for you to explain what benefits you’re expecting.

 

[Perth Red]

Playing a game in Tonga would be about boosting the games profile there and getting the populace to form a bond with their national team. I suspect it is hard to care about Tonga RL when they dont really play on the Island and you cant get personally invested. Its clear it doenst take much for these Islander folk to jump on the national bandwagon so lets give them something more to jump on.

Maybe NRL could lobby Govt to use some of its PI investment money to build them a decent stadium so that they can boost sports tourism. NRL could guarantee internatioanl and NRL matches to be played there and NSw cup side could use it as home. Helps the local economy with sport tourist $'s and the RL gets a massive leg up in a place that can produce good talent for the competition.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

Playing a game in Tonga would be about boosting the games profile there and getting the populace to form a bond with their national team. I suspect it is hard to care about Tonga RL when they dont really play on the Island and you cant get personally invested. Its clear it doenst take much for these Islander folk to jump on the national bandwagon so lets give them something more to jump on.

Maybe NRL could lobby Govt to use some of its PI investment money to build them a decent stadium so that they can boost sports tourism. NRL could guarantee internatioanl and NRL matches to be played there and NSw cup side could use it as home. Helps the local economy with sport tourist $'s and the RL gets a massive leg up in a place that can produce good talent for the competition.

Yeah, I hope these trial games they send to the islands are against the national team, even if it is minus a few of the stars...

The Broncos-PNG game was great (i know it was the hunters, not the Kumals). The locals will enjoy a NRL match-up but they would go NUTS for their national team playing at home.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

For the WC, im hoping we get France, NZ or South Africa.

Take a risk and see what happens. Australia clearly doesnt give a shit, so lets see what we can do in a new location.

(I think the big thing for making the WC a success is developing smaller rivalries. Imagine a WC with an Origin like rivalry between France-England or NZ-PNG. The 3 years before the WC should focus on developing rivalries that fed into the bigger event, particularly for the host)

 

[adamkungl]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/leagu...0xjoDE91YDYjuAXnib1pjqRNGF71UiOT_ly2HDHAVCug0

"Don't expect New Zealand to host 2025 Rugby League World Cup, even though it's up for grabs again."

"The sport's governing body have opened it up for parties to express interest in hosting the World Cup in six year's time, but NZRL CEO Greg Peters says it's not something they're pursuing."

NZ almost certainly out, so there goes the Pacific plans.

Who are the potential contenders?

Canada, with USA secondary hosts.
David Argyle could back it as part of his Wolfpack project. Games could be held mostly in Canada, with Toronto a focus. 1 pool could be hosted on the US East Coast.
Argyle's financial input into Rugby League has been significant and it seems like it will continue. He's capable of getting big backers on board. There's been no mention of a bid but the potential for this to happen is certainly there.
One obvious negative is like the US, Canada is a very remote Rugby League frontier. Also it means 2 NH Cups in a row, however Canada to Australia is a friendlier time conversion then England, with evening in Canada being middle of the day in Aus.

South Africa
Bid for 2017 but was beaten by Aus. Subsequently did not bid for 2021.
Not sure who the backers are or where the money comes from, with the SA Government refusing to support Rugby League in the past.
BIG IF backers were guaranteed, it could be the catalyst to get RL legitimacy and support in South Africa, but it's a huge gamble on the RLIF's only showpiece event. SA Rugby League not featured in a World Cup since 2000.
In contrast to Canada, South Africa's time conversion is poor for Australian audiences, despite being a SH cup.

France, with Spain as secondary hosts.
A World Cup many international RL fans want to see due to the potential for a French RL renaissance, but seemingly never on the cards. The Pros are obvious but the cons numerous. Aside from being 2 cups away from Aus audiences, no one seems to be stumping up the cash for it. 2029 seems more likely.

Australia, with Pacific as co-hosts.
Obvious. Despite the 2017 event being underwhelming in attendances and profits, there's nowhere else likely to draw the crowds and sponsors that Australia will.
A majority-Pacific Islands hosted cup is simply unlikely to viable and as the RLIFs only profit vehicle the World Cup must make serious money. Sentiment does not run international rugby league.
That said, a 50-50 split between Australia and the Pacific could succeed, with PNG, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, New Caledonia, Vanuatu, and Hawaii all potential hosting venues if governments, sponsors, RLIF, and NRL work together on the finances.

Asia, Middle-East or South America are non-contenders.

I think Australia will get it. I hope there is a whole lot more ambition and creativity shown if they do.

I hope Canada gets it, and we get our North American dream just in a different flavour.

 

[Springs09]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/leagu...p8ivPdtEQXcr7TeMGQ3lv3E4u9d0Z_xlgMISroYkQ_wo4

The sport's governing body have opened it up for parties to express interest in hosting the World Cup in six year's time, but NZRL CEO Greg Peters says it's not something they're pursuing.

"It's unlikely at this stage, because they're requesting proposals and the RLIF are still considering venues and possible proposals in that light," Peters said.

"In 2017 New Zealand was a successful participant in hosting that, but it's a massive undertaking and at this stage we're not considering 2025, but you never say never."

It's unlikely the World Cup will go to North America, unless there's someone else willing to financially back the tournament.
It's a disappointing outcome, because there is real potential to grow the sport there, not just because of the growth of the game in Toronto, through the Wolfpack.

For league to grow, the showpiece event can't just alternate between England and Australia every four years.

"At the moment they're looking at alternative territories," Peters said.

"2021 (in England) is looking like it's going to be pretty special and the Cup needs to keep growing, the revenue base too is really important.

"2017 was fantastic from an event point of view, but we need to grow more revenue, to bring it into the game and that means territories that can drive more than we can in New Zealand and it's a lot of games."

 

[Springs09]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/leagu...0xjoDE91YDYjuAXnib1pjqRNGF71UiOT_ly2HDHAVCug0

"Don't expect New Zealand to host 2025 Rugby League World Cup, even though it's up for grabs again."

"The sport's governing body have opened it up for parties to express interest in hosting the World Cup in six year's time, but NZRL CEO Greg Peters says it's not something they're pursuing."

NZ almost certainly out, so there goes the Pacific plans.

Who are the potential contenders?

Canada, with USA secondary hosts.
David Argyle could back it as part of his Wolfpack project. Games could be held mostly in Canada, with Toronto a focus. 1 pool could be hosted on the US East Coast.
Argyle's financial input into Rugby League has been significant and it seems like it will continue. He's capable of getting big backers on board. There's been no mention of a bid but the potential for this to happen is certainly there.
One obvious negative is like the US, Canada is a very remote Rugby League frontier. Also it means 2 NH Cups in a row, however Canada to Australia is a friendlier time conversion then England, with evening in Canada being middle of the day in Aus.

South Africa
Bid for 2017 but was beaten by Aus. Subsequently did not bid for 2021.
Not sure who the backers are or where the money comes from, with the SA Government refusing to support Rugby League in the past.
BIG IF backers were guaranteed, it could be the catalyst to get RL legitimacy and support in South Africa, but it's a huge gamble on the RLIF's only showpiece event. SA Rugby League not featured in a World Cup since 2000.
In contrast to Canada, South Africa's time conversion is poor for Australian audiences, despite being a SH cup.

France, with Spain as secondary hosts.
A World Cup many international RL fans want to see due to the potential for a French RL renaissance, but seemingly never on the cards. The Pros are obvious but the cons numerous. Aside from being 2 cups away from Aus audiences, no one seems to be stumping up the cash for it. 2029 seems more likely.

Australia, with Pacific as co-hosts.
Obvious. Despite the 2017 event being underwhelming in attendances and profits, there's nowhere else likely to draw the crowds and sponsors that Australia will.
A majority-Pacific Islands hosted cup is simply unlikely to viable and as the RLIFs only profit vehicle the World Cup must make serious money. Sentiment does not run international rugby league.
That said, a 50-50 split between Australia and the Pacific could succeed, with PNG, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, New Caledonia, Vanuatu, and Hawaii all potential hosting venues if governments, sponsors, RLIF, and NRL work together on the finances.

Jesus don't bring up games in the Pacific, you'll get hounded with how apparently unviable it is.

But surely NZ could host a pool like they did in 2017. 9 or 10 pool games in Australia, 6 in NZ and the rest spread throughout the Pacific. It's disappointing if it comes back here as we don't deserve one after how we treated 2017 and the international game as a whole the last few years.

With the France option, could we possibly have a wider European World Cup to lighten the load on France? A pool in the UK and a pool or 6 games spread among some of the rising countries like Spain, Italy, Serbia, Czechia and Norway? Yeah yeah money and all that but if money wasn't a problem do you think we could get enough support for a decent crowd for a game in these countries?

 

[adamkungl]

Ideally for the Pacific idea i'd anchor it NZ and cut out Australia, but they just said they won't be bidding.

Personally I find these co-co-co-host ideas spread way too thin and lacking focus. There are some positives, "lightening the load" on a single host and giving others a chance to host a game that they otherwise wouldn't.

But there are also negatives.
More difficult and expensive travel arrangements for everyone from players to fans, while offering less for home fans of the main host to get invested in.
More governments to engage with adding significant overheads, while having a less committed buy-in.
Marketing budgets spread thin.
etc

What we're seeing for England 2021 with a robust venue bidding process and city governments backing legacy programs is a good example of the benefits of 1 host.

 

[Springs09]

Ideally for the Pacific idea i'd anchor it NZ and cut out Australia, but they just said they won't be bidding.

Personally I find these co-co-co-host ideas spread way too thin and lacking focus. There are some positives, "lightening the load" on a single host and giving others a chance to host a game that they otherwise wouldn't.

But there are also negatives.
More difficult and expensive travel arrangements for everyone from players to fans, while offering less for home fans of the main host to get invested in.
More governments to engage with adding significant overheads, while having a less committed buy-in.
Marketing budgets spread thin.
etc

What we're seeing for England 2021 with a robust venue bidding process and city governments backing legacy programs is a good example of the benefits of 1 host.

Clearly that's ideal but given NZ, France and USA are very unlikely to be able to host it alone for a while yet spreading the games a little through Europe or the Pacific is the only other option besides it going England-Australia-England-Australia for the next 20 or 30 years.

 

[adamkungl]

I'm all aboard team Canada for 2025 now. The sport needs to make a big play.

I'd like to see it rotate roughly Pacific->UK->Expansion

NZ should honestly be big and healthy (RL-wise) enough to host a whole tournament with a Pacific co-host, rather then being relegated to Australia's backup. it's a failure of administration and marketing if NZ can't host a profitable World Cup.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Well it looks like it will be Australia and maybe PNG hosting 2025 then. Hopefully Australia can host a cup that we know the country is capable of this time.

 

[adamkungl]

How would a Pacific co-hosted event work?
Id suggest putting 3 games from each pool up - similar to the PNG part in 2017 but expanded to 4.
Successful bidders take 3 games.
Open to PNG, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, Vanuatu, New Caledonia, Hawaii, and Indonesia.

 

[Irish-bulldog]

A pacific World Cup wouldn’t work lol, no money on the islands no infrastructure? They don’t have the stadiums, training grounds, gyms, some couldn’t cope with the foot traffic. These islands are pretty much 3rd world countries, not having a go but it’s true. You need to realise what’s involved in hosting. Australia or NZ would have to host with maybe the islands holding 1 or 2 games each max.

It’s a shame the states pulled out, but understandable, it was way too soon and always a long shot. France could host it’s pool games and maybe take some to Spain and the Serbia and what not.

 

[Springs09]

A pacific World Cup wouldn’t work lol, no money on the islands no infrastructure? They don’t have the stadiums, training grounds, gyms, some couldn’t cope with the foot traffic. These islands are pretty much 3rd world countries, not having a go but it’s true. You need to realise what’s involved in hosting. Australia or NZ would have to host with maybe the islands holding 1 or 2 games each max.

It’s a shame the states pulled out, but understandable, it was way too soon and always a long shot. France could host it’s pool games and maybe take some to Spain and the Serbia and what not.

That's what people have been suggesting, not that Fiji or Samoa hosts 12 games each.

 

[adamkungl]

If PNG can hold 3 pool games then it's not beyond possibility for others to.
PNG probably has the better stadium. Part of the bidding process would be to improve the stadiums to a certain standard.
The whole thing would require buy-in from Australian and local governments, the NRL and RLIF/WC, and multinational corporations based in these places (tourism, oil, resources, etc).

PNG 17 proves it can be done, and if it can be done once it can be done bigger and better with more experience.

A full World Cup on the islands will never happen but co-hosting group stages certainly can.

 

[Pommy]

How would a Pacific co-hosted event work?
Id suggest putting 3 games from each pool up - similar to the PNG part in 2017 but expanded to 4.
Successful bidders take 3 games.
Open to PNG, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, Vanuatu, New Caledonia, Hawaii, and Indonesia.

I assume you’re talking about co hosted with Australia and NZ still in the mix. If so Hawaii is a total non starter, the distance is just too great and wouldn’t be fair to put that on only certain teams.

 

[adamkungl]

I assume you’re talking about co hosted with Australia and NZ still in the mix. If so Hawaii is a total non starter, the distance is just too great and wouldn’t be fair to put that on only certain teams.

Scheduling would be an interesting hurdle.
Ideally you wouldn't want teams going back and forth between destinations. You'd want early games on the co-host Islands and later games and finals in Australia.

1 answer would be to open the tournament with pool-stage double headers.

Eg. Lets say you have a pool of NZ Samoa Scotland Ireland
Week 1 has Samoa v Ireland, Scotland v NZ as a double header played in Samoa.
Week 2 has Samoa v Scotland in Samoa, with Ireland v NZ going to Australia.
Week 3 has both games in Australia.

This gives each co-host 3 games, while keeping extra travel low and could be replicated in other pools. Even a Hawaii pool featuring USA. A one off long flight wouldn't be a big deal.

Pool A
PNG (co-Host) England France Greece
Pool B
Australia (Host) USA (co-host Hawaii) Lebanon Wales
Pool C
Samoa (co-Host) Scotland Ireland
Pool D
Fiji (co-Host) Tonga Jamaica Italy

Obviously there are some financial and broadcast concerns with rigging the opening week of the tournament in such a way. Like I said earlier, it would require a pretty strong cooperation between a lot of different parties to pull something like this off.
But as a story in sport and for Rugby League in the Pacific it would be pretty huge, I don't think it's a stretch to say it would be unprecedented in world sport. Rugby Union has never tried anything of this scale and is obviously a stronger presence in the Pacific.
I said it earlier - If PNG can not only work be be one of the main success stories of 2017, there's no reason why the idea can't be expanded upon.

If we don't go to North America in 2025, I'd love to see something with this level of ambition.

 

[adamkungl]

Anyway just brainstorming how and if it could work. I don't think Rugby League, especially Australian Rugby League, has the vision or ability to pull off something like the above.

 

[Pommy]

Scheduling would be an interesting hurdle.
Ideally you wouldn't want teams going back and forth between destinations. You'd want early games on the co-host Islands and later games and finals in Australia.

1 answer would be to open the tournament with pool-stage double headers.

Eg. Lets say you have a pool of NZ Samoa Scotland Ireland
Week 1 has Samoa v Ireland, Scotland v NZ as a double header played in Samoa.
Week 2 has Samoa v Scotland in Samoa, with Ireland v NZ going to Australia.
Week 3 has both games in Australia.

This gives each co-host 3 games, while keeping extra travel low and could be replicated in other pools. Even a Hawaii pool featuring USA. A one off long flight wouldn't be a big deal.

Pool A
PNG (co-Host) England France Greece
Pool B
Australia (Host) USA (co-host Hawaii) Lebanon Wales
Pool C
Samoa (co-Host) Scotland Ireland
Pool D
Fiji (co-Host) Tonga Jamaica Italy

Obviously there are some financial and broadcast concerns with rigging the opening week of the tournament in such a way. Like I said earlier, it would require a pretty strong cooperation between a lot of different parties to pull something like this off.
But as a story in sport and for Rugby League in the Pacific it would be pretty huge, I don't think it's a stretch to say it would be unprecedented in world sport. Rugby Union has never tried anything of this scale and is obviously a stronger presence in the Pacific.
I said it earlier - If PNG can not only work be be one of the main success stories of 2017, there's no reason why the idea can't be expanded upon.

If we don't go to North America in 2025, I'd love to see something with this level of ambition.

I agree it could be expanded upon after PNG I just think Hawaii is a stretch. That one off long flight still writes off an entire day for the team doing it and gives an advantage to the opposition who was more local.

In my opinion there’s also issues with some teams playing games in tropical conditions and others not. having an entire group hosted in say Port Moresby or Hawaii whilst other teams might not leave NSW or Vic in the groups I believe could have an impact or fatigue levels as the tournament goes on.
That’s not to say it shouldn’t happen but in my opinion it is something which needs to be taken in to consideration and scheduling be worked out. For instance if there are longer periods between games as the tournament goes on these should probably go to the teams who have been playing up there.

 

[adamkungl]

For what it's worth, Fiji in Oct-Nov is a few degrees cooler on average than f**king Cairns and Townsville, comparable to Brisbane (28-29 deg ave high), but still a fair bit warmer than Sydney (22-23 deg ave high).
Port Moresby is up in the 30s