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Main Difference Between Aus & NZ

Scarves

Juniors
Messages
612
The difference between NZ & Australia... there is never an underlying fear that the Kiwis will easily run away with the contest.

A little like Origin, when NSW won three straight series... the concept was dying, doom and gloom, the media were bleating about how this could have happened. If it was NSW in a five series dynasty the health of the whole code would be questioned.

Here in test footy world we have the same issues. It's because we are a seriously small and vulnerable code. I listened to the commentary, so did you. They were praying for the Kiwi's to pass on penalty kicks, score tries, get back into games. The whole match was like a how to guide for what the Kiwi's need to do to beat Australia. And this Aussie team had no Locky, Inglis, Slater or Thurston. I reckon it will be more than a while before we again see bookies make the mistake of offering even money in a trans tasman test.
 

The Observer

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
1,742
Gould made the good point that State of Origin gives Australian players the confidence and game sense that gives Australia a real advantage over NZ. The NZRL needs to lobby the NRL & its clubs to support a 2 match Kiwi Roots series.
 

Scarves

Juniors
Messages
612
I agree with an Intra Kiwi Rep game or even some type of Polynesian hybrid rep game as well. There are so many opportunities to play such game/s. Resting the NRL main competition for a stand alone State of Origin Weekend window could see plenty of quality rep games strategically fitted to fill the NRL void.

It would also provide a stepping stone of resilience for Kiwi players. At the moment, a young kid like SKD burst on the two years ago as a Kiwi, he is basically immediately a fringe New Zealand test player. Ben Matulino is an even better example. He'd be way off NSW selection lest representing the Kangaroos. In comparison, Chris Lawrence has had to do an apprenticeship of sorts.

We have an obligation to improve international footy. Whether that be encouraging a combined Pacific Islands Rep Team or promoting more Island and New Zealand Rep Footy and pathways to rep footy, all should be investigated. The bottom line is Australia is strong because players know where they are going, the pathways are well lit, it is defining. The pathways to playing for a Pacific nation like Tonga is lost in a bit of porridge, three years later you could be eligible for France if you played three seasons with Catalans.
 

maple_69

Bench
Messages
4,460
It's a good idea. Perhaps a combined, Tonga, Samoa, Fiji team against New Zealand.
It wouldn't be considered an international so players who traditionally would represent NZ because its a far higher honour would play for the pacific islands team and help build the strength of those nations and still be able to represent NZ in internationals.

Another NZ team is also an important stepping stone though. More opportunities for players to choose league over union will improve the depth which is NZ's real weakness currently. I'd consider there first 17 close to Aus's.
 

RHCP

Bench
Messages
4,784
Where's the desire for a combined Pacific side? Sure it would be more competitive on paper, but I don't think their would be as much passion as representing your homeland.

I'm not for stand alone Origin weekends mid-season, but if they were to be implemented, perhaps their could be a straight-up elimination tournament run simultaneously amongst the other test nations. If the English Super League were to come on board, a Northern Hemisphere (Group One) and Southern Hemisphere (Group Two) with the winners of each group to play each other in the Grand Final. Something like:

Week One - Essentially these matches would be qualifiers, as the top two ranked teams from each Group would receive byes (I'm assuming this would be NZ, France, England and PNG). To be played the week before the first State of Origin standalone weekend

Italy vs Ireland
Wales vs Scotland

Fiji vs Cook Islands
Tonga vs Samoa

Week Two - State of Origin I

France vs Ireland
England vs Wales

Fiji vs New Zealand
Papua New Guinea vs Tonga

Week Three - State of Origin II
England vs France
New Zealand vs Papua New Guinea

Week Four - State of Origin III
New Zealand vs England

This gives the minnow nations some game time, as well as allowing New Zealand and England's respective rep players the opportunity to get as much rep experience as their Australian equivalents.
 

Wilson1

Juniors
Messages
497
Where's the desire for a combined Pacific side? Sure it would be more competitive on paper, but I don't think their would be as much passion as representing your homeland.

I'm not for stand alone Origin weekends mid-season, but if they were to be implemented, perhaps their could be a straight-up elimination tournament run simultaneously amongst the other test nations. If the English Super League were to come on board, a Northern Hemisphere (Group One) and Southern Hemisphere (Group Two) with the winners of each group to play each other in the Grand Final. Something like:

Week One - Essentially these matches would be qualifiers, as the top two ranked teams from each Group would receive byes (I'm assuming this would be NZ, France, England and PNG). To be played the week before the first State of Origin standalone weekend

Italy vs Ireland
Wales vs Scotland

Fiji vs Cook Islands
Tonga vs Samoa

Week Two - State of Origin I

France vs Ireland
England vs Wales

Fiji vs New Zealand
Papua New Guinea vs Tonga

Week Three - State of Origin II
England vs France
New Zealand vs Papua New Guinea

Week Four - State of Origin III
New Zealand vs England

This gives the minnow nations some game time, as well as allowing New Zealand and England's respective rep players the opportunity to get as much rep experience as their Australian equivalents.

I have never been one for mid season international rugby league series. I like the way league is structured right now. We have club football and then the international stuff. Why make it confusing? I can't see England buying into it and I don't see how a couple of games against island teams and England will help us when we play Australia.

Gould made the good point that State of Origin gives Australian players the confidence and game sense that gives Australia a real advantage over NZ. The NZRL needs to lobby the NRL & its clubs to support a 2 match Kiwi Roots series.

I don't think it has anything to do with the NRL. If Kiwi Roots was to happen I would run it sort of as a trial on the same weekend as the NRL grand final. It would at least ensure the NZRL had two games (plus the test against an island nation) each year to take around the country.
 
Messages
16,034
Self belief, we've belted them for so many years they have the whipped dog mentality that the second australia frowns at them the tail goes between the legs.
 

miguel de cervantes

First Grade
Messages
7,470
The Kiwis don't lose games against the Australians because New Zealanders are genetically inferior or not built for rugby league (au contraire!). The fortunes of international rugby league depend purely and simply on a single mathematical fact - the number of players playing week after week in a top class rugby league competition eligible for such or such country. This is what determines and hones:

(a) evolution of player skills by playing against quality opposition,
(b) team player depth (simple maths), and to a lesser extent
(c) team cohesion

This mathematical fact alone will mean the current ranking order at the top end of international league will not under any circumstances change in the foreseable future. Rare individual games will be won and lost, the rankings of minor nations may vary because they have fewer full time professionals, but the fans of league must face the fact that international league will never progress while the rank order is determined as such, much to the detriment of the game at this level.

The same is true in union and soccer but is less a determining factor because the nature of these sports produces tighter, more random games, especially in soccer but also in union mostly thanks to frequent penalties, drop goals and possibly a generally more defensive mindset. This does not exist in league. There is nowhere to hide if you are inferior on the field, you will be beaten and beaten well. You cannot kick your way back into a game.

The above obstacles must be overcome in one way or another in order for the game to go foward. The only possibilities I see are:

(a) creating professional leagues in other countries strong enough to prevent player drain to the NRL or the ESL and remain attractive compared to these two to be able to stand alone. Highly unlikely in the foreseable future, espeicially in Europe or in the Oceania region. Such a league in the US would take decades to get to an NRL/ESL standard and they would have to be offering NRL/ESL type money to reduce player drain.

(b) somehow increasing foreign participation in the ESL and NRL. Even with Pacific Islanders and Kiwis player percentages at all time highs in the NRL and to a lesser extent ESL, in proportion to "Australians" (or those that elect to play for Australia) it still remains too low to have any effect on their dominance on the international stage. In theory, if you wanted roughly equal teams with equal depth in the Oceania region you would need something like 20% AUS/NZ/TON/SAM/PNG player percentages in the NRL, and this with strict eligibility rules to prevent players switching to stronger teams. It's not going to happen. Whilst it is encouraging to see high quality players from Wales, France, PNG etc. playing in the ESL or NRL you only have to watch games with these national sides playing the big three to see that it is simply nowhere near enough to get these countries playing regular, competitive games.

The most effective way to increase foreign player participation in a league is to bring in a team from a foriegn country, ie. Catalans, Warriors & Crusaders. Unfortunately, economic forces combined with pressure/desire to retain historical clubs means incorporating foreign clubs into already established competitions is next to impossible, or at best very slow. Even with the Warriors now existing for 15 years and with a multitude of kiwis in other teams and in the ESL, NZ only seem to pull off rare rare victories over Australia. This gives you an idea of the how powerful the mathematical fact mentioned at the top of this post is - it is undeniable.

(c) Change the rules of the game to make results more random, scores tighter, or handicap teams. Highly unlikely, but undoubtably the easiest, by far the most cost effective way to change the rugby league world possibly for the better. The rules have been changed in the past, what would need to happen to provoke similar evolution in the game?

I'll state it again, as long as the above facts are true and player percentages remain in current proportions, we will always be here on LeagueUnlimited lamenting and winging about the state of the international game. For eternity.

----------------

With regards to player percentages it would be extremely interesting to perform a case study on the evolution of State of Origin results as a function of the number of Queenslanders or NSWelshmen playing top class rugby league. Does anyone know where such information could be found?
 

meltiger

First Grade
Messages
6,268
The difference between Australia and NZ?


One nation takes it more seriously than the other, yet get slapped the vast majority of the time, and fluke occasional wins against a team that simply doesn't care as much, that allow them to think they can actually match the talent coming out of the better country.


It's that simple.
 

Auckland4ever

Juniors
Messages
1,243
The difference between Australia and NZ?


One nation takes it more seriously than the other, yet get slapped the vast majority of the time, and fluke occasional wins against a team that simply doesn't care as much, that allow them to think they can actually match the talent coming out of the better country.


It's that simple.


Umm, our nation doesn't take it seriously (as per usual, all the talk in NZ is about the All Blacks). It's that simple. Last I was aware, we had fewer than ten thousand registered players, so there is still huge room for improvement. Numbers of NZ eligible players in the NRL are growing, our depth still needs to be better than it is, but is improving. It may take decades, but I don't see the notion of NZ eventually matching Australia being out of the question.
 
Messages
12,362
The difference between Australia and NZ?


One nation takes it more seriously than the other, yet get slapped the vast majority of the time, and fluke occasional wins against a team that simply doesn't care as much, that allow them to think they can actually match the talent coming out of the better country.


It's that simple.

lol @ "fluke" wins.

We've earned our wins thank you very much.

It's all about depth. We're like the 300 Spartans in the battle of Thermopylae, and your like the Persian army.

Our army aint as big but the quality of our soldiers is just as good, if not better in some areas.
 

meltiger

First Grade
Messages
6,268
haha, poor kiwis.


Bobby, what happened to the comments about "Just how good we are". Your team just got owned by Australia's "B" side.


New Zealand ... :lol:
 
Messages
12,362
That was hardly Australia's B side. The forward pack was actually better, and Carney & Boyd have had better seasons than Lockyer & Slater. Lawrence is also a lot better than Tonga. And it didn't have the absolute sh*tness of Gidley on the bench. All in all I'd say it was a better side despite Dean Young being in it.

I said we were being quite modest in relation to how good we've been. This was in response to your "cocky kiwis" taunt. Nothing wrong with that.

And it aint over yet ladies n gents...
 

roughyedspud

Coach
Messages
12,181
your right it was'nt the 'B' team......it was the australia 'B' reserves that beat NZ at the weekend :lol:
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
66,361
There's 4 times as many Aussies as Kiwis in the NRL. Why the surprise that the Roos are better and have more depth? Get two more NZ teams in the NRL then we may see a changing of the guard.
 

miguel de cervantes

First Grade
Messages
7,470
There's 4 times as many Aussies as Kiwis in the NRL. Why the surprise that the Roos are better and have more depth? Get two more NZ teams in the NRL then we may see a changing of the guard.

And we would still be stuck with the big 3. International rugby league needs to do more than this to go foward.
 

rnb11

Juniors
Messages
820
lol @ "fluke" wins.

We've earned our wins thank you very much.

It's all about depth. We're like the 300 Spartans in the battle of Thermopylae, and your like the Persian army.

Our army aint as big but the quality of our soldiers is just as good, if not better in some areas.

WRONG. Couldnt beat Australia in 8 games before the WC (3 years.) Got spanked in the first WC match and won on the back of an Australian error in the final. Since that they have never been able to beat Australia again in the last 4 matches (2 years and counting.) So that's one win in over 5 years and if Slater didn't throw that one stupid pass it'd be 0 wins in 5 years. All the signs of a fluke if you ask me.
 

roughyedspud

Coach
Messages
12,181
It's all about depth. We're like the 300 Spartans in the battle of Thermopylae, and your like the Persian army.

Our army aint as big but the quality of our soldiers is just as good, if not better in some areas.

what like the army you sent over to england for the all golds series?? :lol:
 

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