Morgan: No Room For More French

[ParraEelsNRL]

http://www.sportinglife.com/rugbyle...=rleague/07/07/13/RUGBYL_Super_Nightlead.html


MORGAN: NO ROOM FOR MORE FRENCH

Hull KR coach Justin Morgan, who famously took Toulouse to the semi-finals of the Challenge Cup two years ago, has cast serious doubt over the viability of a second French Super League club.
Toulouse, who were French champions in 2000, have high hopes of joining Perpignan-based Catalans Dragons when Super League introduces a system of licenses in 2009.
There are plans to expand the League to 14 teams but Morgan, who left the French club to join Hull KR after their 56-18 semi-final defeat by Leeds two years ago, does not believe Toulouse will be ready to make the step-up.
"I don't think the French community and certainly the rugby league community could support another French team by any stretch of the imagination," said Morgan, who is in Perpignan for Rovers' League match against the Dragons.
"I think Catalans are making good progress at the moment but let's get them to be a top-five team consistently and then worry about the next step.
"I don't think the French system could support it and I don't think there is any French club that is in good enough shape financially to make a realistic bid for Super League.
"There aren't enough players. Let the Catalans work on the kids that are currently 14 and 15 and see how they are in five years' time. If, all of a sudden, they've got 40 of them, then let's think about a team then.
"I think, if you're going to look at franchises, I think you need to look at the grassroots areas and some of the more established clubs that have been there and done that."
Morgan's immediate concern is halting a five-match losing run that threatens his own club's Super League status.
Rovers are just a point ahead of bottom club Salford, who visit Warrington on Sunday, and face a tricky test against a Catalans side who have won five of their eight games at the Gilbert Brutus Stadium this year and also won 34-20 at Craven Park on Good Friday.
The Robins' prospects have also been dealt a double body blow with the loss of playmaking duo Paul Cooke and Chris Chester, while prop Mick Vella is not yet ready to make his return from injury.
Cooke misses his first match since his controversial move from Hull FC in April because of an ankle injury, while Chester is sidelined with a hand problem.
"It's a huge blow but I always try to put positive spins on things," said Morgan. "While one door closes, an opportunity awaits for somebody else.
"Some people are going to get an opportunity that they haven't had for quite some time. Now is the best time to put your best foot forward."
One man hoping to grab his opportunity is goal-kicking centre Gareth Morton, who has not played for 10 weeks after falling out of favour and picking up hamstring and ankle injuries.
Morton was last year's leading scorer in Rovers' promotion campaign and played in their opening eight matches of Super League but was recently linked with return to rugby union.
Rovers also welcome back prop Makali Aizue from a three-match suspension while Catalans have centre Vincent Duport returning from a two-month absence with a groin injury.

 

[AlbertRosenfeld]

Justin Morgan's comments should be considered in the following context:

1. If Toulouse is given a franchise then Hull KR will have less chance of getting one.

2. Justin Morgan left Toulouse in bad odour. He tried to take four Toulouse players with him to Hull KR and the Toulouse boss Carlos Zalduendo tried to stop him by refusing to release the three French players without receiving a massive fee, on the grounds that Toulouse owned their licence. There was an almighty dustup, which required the RFL to intervene. Eventually Morgan only got to take Couturier and the Englishman Gallagher. So Zalduendo and Morgan hate each other with a passion.

Hence I think that Morgan should not be considered a disinterested analyst.

 

[screeny]

I think Morgan's comments should be taken in good faith, although AR could be right in what he says.

I tend to think if the club is organised well and has govt and commercial support then the playing strength is not that important, if Toulouse is immune from relegation, whihc it must be.

Morgan says 'let's wait and see how the Catalan youngsters are doing in four years'. Well, the franchise won't be in Toulouse until 2009 so we'll have a very good idea about raising standards in France by then.

 

[nadera78]

The improvements the Dragons have made from the start of last year to where they are now have been huge. A year on from now, and they could really be flying. At that point, it would be very likely that Toulouse would be given a franchise, especially if they receive similar political and commercial support to Les Ctalans.

And good luck to them I say. Two French clubs in a 14 team comp would be fantastic.

 

[Coastbloke]

In a franchised 14 team ESL for 2009, a second French club and the Celtic Crusaders should be included....

 

[AlbertRosenfeld]

I think Morgan's comments should be taken in good faith, although AR could be right in what he says.

I tend to think if the club is organised well and has govt and commercial support then the playing strength is not that important, if Toulouse is immune from relegation, whihc it must be.

Morgan says 'let's wait and see how the Catalan youngsters are doing in four years'. Well, the franchise won't be in Toulouse until 2009 so we'll have a very good idea about raising standards in France by then.

We would have to know by early next year about the standards being raised in France, because the franchise decisions will be made no later than July 2008.

An inspection-meeting with the Toulouse club will be made early next month -- just three or four weeks from now. Both the chairman and the coach of Les Catalans want a second club in Toulouse.

There is not going to be enough slots open at Les Catalans for all the talented youngsters who will want to play Super League in 2009. It is not just youngsters, but also rugby union converts. As of now there are many good RU convert forwards at Les Catalans -- two successful USAP converts (Gossard and Griffi) and two more in training. Plus there are quality players in LER, like St Gaudens forwards Anselme and Borlin, as well as backs like Greseque, Stacul, Planas and Villegas.

All of these known players are looking for a SUper League berth even before Toulouse makes its professional appearance in SL, and thereby attracts many rugby union converts from the larger catchment area around Toulouse. That is why a second pathway to Super League, to be located in Toulouse, is necessary for taking advantage of the potential player growth in the French game.

Richard Lewis would also like a second London club. But a very rich patron is needed for that to happen.

 

[langpark]

I respect Morgan's opinion, having worked in France for some time. To an extent I agree with him too.

I'd love to see Toulouse enter in 2009 to build on the momentum of the Catalans, World Cup, and the fact that they join the Tri Nations in 2009. BUT, here we are in July 2007, less than 18 months out of 2009 and we haven't heard anything even close to official, which makes me seriously doubt they'll get in. But hopefully Toulouse can get organised and put in a decent bid for not long after 2009, I'm sure almost every League fan would love to see it.


Coastbloke: I admire your optimism, but Crusaders are no chance for 2009.

 

[AlbertRosenfeld]

I respect Morgan's opinion, having worked in France for some time. To an extent I agree with him too.

I'd love to see Toulouse enter in 2009 to build on the momentum of the Catalans, World Cup, and the fact that they join the Tri Nations in 2009. BUT, here we are in July 2007, less than 18 months out of 2009 and we haven't heard anything even close to official, which makes me seriously doubt they'll get in. But hopefully Toulouse can get organised and put in a decent bid for not long after 2009, I'm sure almost every League fan would love to see it..

No one has heard anything official yet. The RFL will not be making any announcements before next year.

Coastbloke: I admire your optimism, but Crusaders are no chance for 2009.

Celtic Crusaders will have a good chance of getting a Super League franchise in 2009 if they can get promotion ot NL1 at the end of this season. The top two NL2 teams get promoted at season's end. Right now the Celtic Crusaders are runnning third in NL2 with a game in hand, and a squad that is improving with quality recruits as we speak.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

http://www.toxiii.com/actualites/evenements/le-grand-oral-pour--toulouse-olympique-xiii.html


The great oral examination for Olympic Toulouse XIII Writing by Beauclou Jean-Michel 12-07-2007

[FONT=&quot]RUGBY WITH XIII/ÉLITE. OLYMPIC TOULOUSE PREPARES THE GREAT ORAL EXAMINATION IN FRONT OF[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]THE SUPER LEAGUE.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]TO: released horizon[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]One had left the Toulouse treizists during March with some money worries to manage including 450.000 euros of liability to be sponged. Four months later, the situation clearly improved so much so that Toulouse Olympique presents an assessment of positive exercise. With in prospect, reception of the leaders of Super League on July 31 next….[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“All that thanks to our partners, with the table companions[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Oval[/FONT][FONT=&quot], like with the town hall and the regional council”, specifies Carlos Zalduendo, future chair SASP of Toulouse Olympique, which knew to find the supports necessary to give the accounts to floods, to bring back balance and the indicators to the green. “Finally, this test will be useful to us for the future. We learned the lessons, set up a steering committee, reinforced controls from them upstream. And then what there is the positive one also, it is that we showed our capacity to be reacted in spite of turbulences”, insists Carlos Zalduendo.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]APPOINTMENT ON JULY 31[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A good point indeed the more so as the summer of the Toulouse club does not announce a whole rest. Candidate to integrate[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Super League[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]since 2003, Toulouse Olympique will be auditioned in this direction by the leaders of the English professional league, next on July 31, in Toulouse. Richard Lewis, executive director of[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Super League[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and its staff will be all the day in the pink City to study the “plane business” Toulouse, to visit the infrastructures of to, etc It is clear that a healthy economic situation is essential to hope to cross the shelf. “It is for that also that all our partners reacted and mobilized themselves. They wanted to save the club so that it defends its chances correctly and can conclude this project”, continues Carlos Zalduendo which works like a navvy on the file with all its team and particularly Christophe Dubousquet, coordinator of the project Super League.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Currently formatted with twelve teams, the English professional championship should in horizon 2009 be extended to quatorzepensionnaires. A Welsh team and a second French formation (to in fact) are strongly had a presentiment of.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Remain to pass the great oral examination of July. “We are ready. It will be necessary to bring precise and concrete elements on our sporting and economic project. ” And to then await the autumn to know the final decision.[/FONT]

 

[hgfds]

What competition is there in france for the esl???,union plays in winter a 2nd franchise looks good even if initially it is loaded with imports

 

[Lockyer4President!]

ESL 2018: 2 London teams, 2 French teams and a Welsh team. How great would that be for the game.

 

[bowes]

He's right about their not being enough good players for a 2nd French team, though if they had a team of mostly imports they may be able to get good crowds. I don't know enough about the finances to comment on that, but can't imagine they're in exactly the best shape. Also the French Elite is not in very good shape (lost UVC*, Limoux almost certain to follow to Elite 2 or oblivion and possibly Lyon to Elite 2), so taking more players out isn't ideal. Not saying it definitely won't work, but their application should be scrutinised VERY carefully as chucking them in just because they're French is incredibly stupid as if they then fold it would be a disaster

*UVC have disbanded as a combined club with a separate Villefranche entering National 1 (3rd tier) and Cahors entering Federale (4th tier)

Celtic Crusaders don't have a very convincing bid and if they don't get in SL in 2009 it's likely they'll fold immediately as their backer is not the type to stick with clubs long term, so 2012 is not an option, and they have spent large amounts trying to rush into SL. They've got a small chance if they go up this year, but if they don't then they're automatically rejected

 

[bowes]

delete

 

[The Observer]

He's right about their not being enough good players for a 2nd French team, though if they had a team of mostly imports they may be able to get good crowds.

Morgan may have a point, though as AR says he's not a disinterested party. Nevertheless, one question is - how many French SL standard players could Toulouse bring to SL (from the comp as a whole), and how many should they have? Some people expect that a 2nd French team should be able to draw on 25 French players of SL standard, whereas its OK for an English team to have 20.

If Morgan's right and they need more time, then it'd be good to expand the Northern Rail Cup next year to include 3 French pools. If Toulouse can go from the QFs to win the Final on English soil a few times, that could show their team can compete well against English opposition.

Celtic Crusaders don't have a very convincing bid and if they don't get in SL in 2009 it's likely they'll fold immediately as their backer is not the type to stick with clubs long term, so 2012 is not an option, and they have spent large amounts trying to rush into SL. They've got a small chance if they go up this year, but if they don't then they're automatically rejected

Agreed that they could fold if they don't make SL, and that would be bad for the game. The RFL would be repeating the mistakes of 1996 in letting the Welsh team die, and basically condemning any future attempts to expand to Wales (perhaps anywhere else outside Lancs/Yorkshire). In 1996, the PD of Sky Sports said South Wales team would have increased the value of the TV deal, unlike PSG. In 2008-2009, the Crusaders could add more value for Sky than French or Northern English teams because it would open up a new Pay TV market.

If I'm right, Crusaders are in 3rd. 1st place after regular rounds gets promoted automatically, 2nd promotion spot goes to winner of 6 team final series for places 2 to 7.

Perhaps Toulouse shouldn't admitted yet because they don't have enough quality players, but SL shouldn't be diluted by letting in understrength English NL teams. If the RFL can get more money, they'd improve standards in the British game and the England/GB test team by having a 12 team, 26 round SL. 10 English clubs, Catalans and Celtic Crusaders.

 

[screeny]

There is the argument that the small number of French SL clubs will mean a more focused, concentrated route for quality youngsters. The ratio of quality youngsters going to Toulouse and Les Cats would be greater, arguably, than the number of quality youngsters joining the same number of British clubs, where the talent is more diluted, and that the latent talent (ooh, anagram) pool in France is much bigger than that of the UK. More SL activity will provide the stimulus for more and more quality youngsters to make the grade, meaning a more rapid rise in quality than, say, in a new English club, where the professional player pool struggles to stock the pro clubs.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[AlbertRosenfeld]

A number of contributors here have given credence to the Justin Morgan assertion that there are not enough French players of Super League quality to add a second team in 2009. But no one has backed up that claim with any detailed analysis. Let me try to rectify that problem.

First, how many French players does a French club need, at minimum, to have a Super League squad? Answer: based on current Les Catalans policy of having 8 foreigners, and a minimum of 25 in squad, the magic number would seem to be 17 French. However Les Catalans have indicated they will soon drop back to 6 foreigners. That would require minimum 19 French players.

Assuming that Toulouse is, like Les Catalans, given a three year concession of 8 foreign players, then they will need 17 French while Catalans will require 19.

Total minimum French players required: 36

Next, how do we determine which French players are of Super League quality? Having played Super League capably would be one criterion. A second criterion would be having played international rugby league against Australia, NZ or GB/England competently. So let us look at those players who can fulfill those criteria (some fulfill both).

I would suggest that we look at the following list:

Experienced Super League players (present or former Catalans unless otherwise identified) (26) :

Renaud Guige, Thomas Bosc
Dmitri Pelo, Vincent Duport, Younes Khattabi, Sylvain Houles (London and Wakefield),

Teddy Sadaoui, Olivier Charles, Fred Zitter,

Julien Rinaldi (Catalans and Harlequins)

Gregory Mounis, Lionel Teixido, Aurelien Cologni, Jamal Fakir, Sebastian Raguin, Olivier Elima (Wakefield), Cyril Gossard, Andrew Bentley, Julien Touxagas

Jerome Guisset, Matthieu Griffi, Adel Fellous, David Ferriol, Remi Casty,
David Berthezene (Catalans and Salford), Kane Bentley


High Potential Super League players (frequent French internationals) (5):

Maxime Greseque (Pia), Christophe Moly (Carcassonne), Cedric Gay (Toulouse), Eric Anselme (Albi), Jean -Christophe Borlin (St Gaudens)


Other Potential Super League players (other French Elite or NL1 talent with some international experience) (5)

Cyril Stacul (Villeneuve-now signed Catalans), Constant Villegas (Toulouse), Sebastian Planas (Toulouse), Damien Couturier (Leigh) Frederic Vaccari (Villeneuve)

Grand total: 36


This number is not taking into account the additional French rugby union talent who will convert to rugby league -- for either Les Catalans or Toulouse --between now and 2009. Already, following the success of former USAP players Griffi and Gossard, there are two other French players from USAP training with Les Catalans (*Arnaud Astruc and Jean-Pierre Perez ). Nor does it take account of rising French junior rugby league talent (e.g. Guasch) who may be ready in a reserve status by 2009. It is not unrealistic to think that we should have 40 Super League capable French players by 2009.


We can see that there is no need to stack Toulouse with foreigners or drain Les Catalans of quality French players in order to get Toulouse going.


Conclusion: the claim that there are not enough French players for two French Super League teams is patently false.

 

[screeny]

Yeah, that is what I was trying to say in my last email, Albert. We need less total players in France than we would in England, basically.

Such a big part of it is the professional lifestyle too. Getting players training full time, eating like pros and doing weights like pros will churn out SL calibre players a a great rate, rather than just hoping that we unearth skill divas.

French RL needs to churn out champions!

Edit: I said m u n g o s but the pesky computer changed it!

 

[bowes]

Don't think CC should be let in just to stop them folding, anyone could threaten that. If they have a viable bid, definitely let them in, but I can't imagine they do. Being Welsh does not merit a franchise by itself

 

[bowes]

Disagree with Albert as some of the players that played for Catalans weren't really good enough for SL as they finished bottom last year. If sufficient players switch from RU it may be possible though

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Give the French a few years with a fully pro team and watch things change.

Some say they finished bottom last year and they weren't good enough for SL, but the thing is, France had no Pro team before that, it was all park footy or just above it, look what happened when the Warriors came in, 3 years later, every team has Kiwis.

The guys playing over there need time to learn how to be professional, it won't happen in 1 or 2 years, but 3 and on you will start to see them coming through.

Someone else mentioned Training, Eating, Living like a pro and all the rest that goes with that, I agree.

Look at the experience all the guys who have been dragged into Catalans this year have gained because the team has had a terrible run with injuries, they managed quite well considering, and I noticed the only time they got hammered was when they played ST Helens, now Catalans aren't the only team to get belted by them, it's happened to most others as well, even some of the Big 4 have a hard time against them, yet Catalans with massive injuries to key players can hold their heads high.

We might think a few of the guys who have been picked are hopeless, but these guys have come out of the LER semi pro comp with no idea about being a professional player, lets see how these guys go next season.