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SBW and the World Cup

Micistm

Bench
Messages
4,470
$BW is a good celeb fighter...that's where it ends. Any of the pro commentators have said he's a decent enough amateur that if he focussed on it full time might make a journeyman, that's it. Superb athelete, flawed boxer that is hyped up to more than the celebrity fighter he is.
As mentioned on another topic, on Telfers Radio sport show, Telfer asked 'Smittie' the US boxing scout to have on look at SBWs when the hype was getting up to ridiculous levels. After saying 'Who?' at first- after examining his fights just did not rate him at all, classing him as clearly a good athlete that could make some money in celebrity boxing or as a journeyman if he really put the effort in- But nothing spectacular, saying he had several young rookies on his books that would slaughter him.
I tend to take his word as a boxing expert, and will eat humble pie when $BW takes on a proper boxer in a fair fight. The only decent guy he took on was over forty and would've knocked him out had the rules not been changed to save his showpony arse! ;-)
I don't blame $BW for NZ Boxing whoring themselves out and giving him the title in farcical ways though...that was NZ boxing selling their soul, it will take a lot for them to get credibility back after that
 

Micistm

Bench
Messages
4,470
He has no knock out punch like DT.

Pity you cant shoulder charge in boxing.

Problem is people look at his boxing 'career' with biased eyes, either for or against, on what they think of his past antics, and base his skill on that.
That's why it was good to hear from ol Smitty in the US, as a boxing expert who is impartial on the whole $BW show. Too many people will either say he's crap due to not liking him (or rather his past), or be a fan and rave regardless.
IMO- Bring back the 'is he a good boxer' debate when he actually boxes someone who is not either a mouthy Akld bouncer like 'Gary Grr' (!), an overweight aging beneficiary, an actor/journeyman looking for a retirement payout, or an older pro boxer who would've knocked him out if they hadn't pulled an appalling fix to win:lol:
 

Manu Vatuvei

Coach
Messages
16,827
Fighting an impossible battle arguing this with you I know Micistm, but the "actor looking for a retirement payout" Clarence Tillman has stayed active (as he always has throughout his career) with a further 4 fights since the SBW loss.

Although he was 11W 8L before the SBW fight he has now lost 5 straight and seems to be an international bum-for-hire for up and coming prospects. Nevertheless he is still ranked the #8 NZ heavyweight by boxrec. When he fought SBW for the NZ title he was top 5. I see no issue with a top 5 ranked guy being SBW's opponent for what is, after all, only one of the so-called "NZ titles".

Again, dealing only with facts and not opinions, here are the boxrec NZ heavyweight rankings. No emotions here, just mathematical calculations taking into account results and strength of opposition.

http://boxrec.com/ratings.php?sex=M&division=Heavyweight&country=NZ&pageID=1

Yet you regard it as a farce that the guy at #1 is one of our national belt holders? Who isn't being objective here?
 

Fast Eddie

First Grade
Messages
8,085
Fighting an impossible battle arguing this with you I know Micistm, but the "actor looking for a retirement payout" Clarence Tillman has stayed active (as he always has throughout his career) with a further 4 fights since the SBW loss.

Although he was 11W 8L before the SBW fight he has now lost 5 straight and seems to be an international bum-for-hire for up and coming prospects. Nevertheless he is still ranked the #8 NZ heavyweight by boxrec. When he fought SBW for the NZ title he was top 5. I see no issue with a top 5 ranked guy being SBW's opponent for what is, after all, only one of the so-called "NZ titles".

Again, dealing only with facts and not opinions, here are the boxrec NZ heavyweight rankings. No emotions here, just mathematical calculations taking into account results and strength of opposition.

http://boxrec.com/ratings.php?sex=M&division=Heavyweight&country=NZ&pageID=1

Yet you regard it as a farce that the guy at #1 is one of our national belt holders? Who isn't being objective here?


Yeah there is no point, there is a few people in this thread who will take any sort of opportunity to have a crack at him and try twist anything into doing so. Little bit sad really. I hope he signs one year contracts for the rest of his career just to rile people up over such a non consquential thing to them :lol:
 

Micistm

Bench
Messages
4,470
Fighting an impossible battle arguing this with you I know Micistm, but the "actor looking for a retirement payout" Clarence Tillman has stayed active (as he always has throughout his career) with a further 4 fights since the SBW loss.

Although he was 11W 8L before the SBW fight he has now lost 5 straight and seems to be an international bum-for-hire for up and coming prospects. Nevertheless he is still ranked the #8 NZ heavyweight by boxrec. When he fought SBW for the NZ title he was top 5. I see no issue with a top 5 ranked guy being SBW's opponent for what is, after all, only one of the so-called "NZ titles".

Again, dealing only with facts and not opinions, here are the boxrec NZ heavyweight rankings. No emotions here, just mathematical calculations taking into account results and strength of opposition.

http://boxrec.com/ratings.php?sex=M&division=Heavyweight&country=NZ&pageID=1

Yet you regard it as a farce that the guy at #1 is one of our national belt holders? Who isn't being objective here?

I see an issue with Tillman being the 'title fight' opponent when he's not even eligible to win it!:lol:
Again, you can point to stats- but they are stats of a dodgy NZ Boxing who allowed this farce to start, and allow it to continue, for the sake of cashing in on the $BW wave. Sold out for silver. They have no credibility at all...not only do they have no issue with allowing $BW to have a shot at a 'vacant' title, instead of it being against the next in line they allow it with someone who can't even win it even if victorious!
Tillman is quoted as his first love acting, his CV is online. He was a journeyman to pay the bills. It paid well. He is quoted himself as saying he was retiring after the $BW fight to follow his acting. It clearly didn't pay as well nor as successful as he's gone back to biting the canvas for up and comers for money!
He was a reasonable journeyman. When he took on $BW he was fat and out of shape, no motivation except for the payday, ready (in his words) to retire and no hope of taking a belt he didn't qualify for!

We had Gary Grr...the puny bigmouthed Jaffa Bouncer, we had the 42 year old sickness beneficiary with a dodgy elbow fighting to fund his Christian oboe CD, and Tillman the fat aging journeyman (I've even left off actor for you!) not eligible nor motivated!
The only decent boxer so far (in his day) was Botha. Granted an old grandpa now but $BWs most credible opponent so far. And to give due, $BW did fairly well early on. BUT, he's a crafty old bugger with tons of experience Botha, paced himself well and would have done $BW like a dinner had it not been so cynically rigged! Look at that final round, look at $BWs face- and tell me that's not the panic look of 'This isn't supposed to happen!' And no one has even bothered answering all the questions surrounding that 'title' fight and all the dodgy things that surrounded it:lol:

Again- Put him in the ring, fight someone decent...I'll bow to him and eat my own earwax. Credible fights count more than stats from a dodgy organisation who IMO sold themselves out to get a piece of the action and hype!
And speaking of that organisation, about time they fronted up and forced him to defend the title- ON their terms not Khoddars- or give it up if they can't. They need to restore some credibility they gave up for publicity and money.

A lot of that is not $BW's camps fault granted, but on much dodgy boxing organisations. But he cannot in all seriousness be called anything other than a celebrity match boxer until it's not so set up. And the argument is on more whether he is a decent boxer, or not, not on set up 'titles.' I respect his fans who defend their boy through thick and thin though:)
 

Micistm

Bench
Messages
4,470
Yeah there is no point, there is a few people in this thread who will take any sort of opportunity to have a crack at him and try twist anything into doing so. Little bit sad really. I hope he signs one year contracts for the rest of his career just to rile people up over such a non consquential thing to them :lol:

I hope so too, keeps the fanboys just as busy;-)
 

Manu Vatuvei

Coach
Messages
16,827
Again, you can point to stats- but they are stats of a dodgy NZ Boxing who allowed this farce to start, and allow it to continue, for the sake of cashing in on the $BW wave.

No you've misunderstood.

Boxrec is a comprehensive international boxing website which applies a statistical formula to all fighters based on their records, who they've beaten, who they've lost to etc. In that link I posted you can see that this enables fighters to accumulate points, and the rankings are based on those points.

It's far from perfect (like any mathematical rankings system) but it has the advantage of being objective and dispassionate. Most boxing people would criticise anyone who relies on boxrec but at the same time would probably rely on boxrec's rankings before they relied on any of the dodgy governing bodies around the world.

SBW is ranked #1 because there is no active NZ heavyweight pro who has a better record than him, and that includes a consideration of his opposition.

It's a sad comment on the state of NZ boxing but it's true.
 

Micistm

Bench
Messages
4,470
I agree with you there Manu (shock horror!), in that it shows the poor state of NZ boxing. But the point I'm making is that ratings of this type do not make him a decent boxer, especially the way the farcical title fight was held, and the less said about the Botha fix the better. The argument is not if he deserves his 'rating'- which is debatable. The argument is if he is a decent fighter- Which IMO is impossible to state one way or the other for certain until tested- and if he is deserved NZ title holder- Which IMO he is not as he has not fought a decent eligible fighter. Tillmans actor/journeyman debate aside(or his extreme out of shape/preparation), he wasn't even eligible for the title FFS!
Impartial commentators, like Smitty, who know little of the Hype machine, don't rate him. It's the hype machine that bugs you, making out he's going to be some contender when it simply isn't so.

Lets get this straight: He's a great footy player. He's a great athelete. Hell, when I saw him on Code, away from those Idiots that run his life he seems a hellova nice young guy, he does. It is a shame he's not the brightest and led around by these guys, but I suppose he'll get rich out of it.
But boxer? Na. Untested, and looks for all money it will remain that way, after the last fight almost went horribly wrong for their marketing machine. And where's the defence fight for this title he 'won?' It's shambolic.

If he's selected for the Kiwis will I support the team? Yes of course. If he's available then they should select him. But not if his stupid f-wit camp are going to turn it into a Winston Peters will he/won't he circus. It's a team sport...ask him if he's available. If he is, great. If he isn't, move on.

Otherwise...added footnote, $39 for the pay per view is a ****ing joke, and the reason his fights are hyped up to be more than they actually are- To attempt to justify the ridiculous prices! At least Sky got burnt with the last one! ;-)
 

ozbash

Referee
Messages
26,922
But boxer? Na. Untested, and looks for all money it will remain that way,

but that's part of the value deal for SBW. he is a NZ champion boxer, got a big shiny belt to prove it..

doesn't make him a good boxer, it makes Khoder a clever prick for organising it and adding another string to the SBW bow..

Khoder isn't everyones cup of tea, but he has his head screwed on as far as Sonny is concerned, the more SBW is worth, the more he gets..
 

Manu Vatuvei

Coach
Messages
16,827
Yeah but you don't need to be too clever to become NZ Champ...prior to Joseph Parker establishing himself all you needed to do was turn up and beat someone of the calibre of Clarence Tillman or Richard Tutaki or Afa Tatupu...SBW is/was good enough to do that.
 

Micistm

Bench
Messages
4,470
but that's part of the value deal for SBW. he is a NZ champion boxer, got a big shiny belt to prove it..

doesn't make him a good boxer, it makes Khoder a clever prick for organising it and adding another string to the SBW bow..

Khoder isn't everyones cup of tea, but he has his head screwed on as far as Sonny is concerned, the more SBW is worth, the more he gets..

Agree there for sure Oz, although IMO it is still a disgrace it was allowed to happen...You can fight bouncers, old beneficiaries, then get a 'title' shot vs someone not even eligable for it that looks for all the world like he should be on a mobility scooter in a US funpark...
...I just remember the social networks running hot after the fight with the $BW fanclub, crowing it silenced the critics and it showed $BW was a true contender and pro fighter...:lol:I thought, I dunno wtf they're on but I'll have what they're having!
NZ Boxing have to sort their shit out, atm it just looks like celebrity boxing with all the sporting credibility of the Kardashian show.
 
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