strength?

[innsaneink]

Is size our problem or is it strength as well?

I look at other teams forwards and I continually.....not every hit up but quite often.....see their forwards hitting the defensive line and their strength and momentum carries the 2 or 3 defenders with them for 2, 3 or more metres.
I see our blokes and its like theyre hitting brick walls when the meet the opposition defensive line.....I think once, yes once, Ive seen skando break a tackle this year.....not many others have done it either.
Are we falling behind in fitness and strength?....are the other clubs getting ahead of us in that area.....???????????
I dont give a sh!t about injuries, or age or experience.......our replacements are just as "weak" (if that IS the case)....they should be able to step up and do the job.

Enough neg....one positive I like is the combo O'neill and elford are forming down the blind....though Saints were awake to on Sunday.

 

[yappy]

It's amazing what hitting the line at pace will do.

Anyone who can remember their high school physics knows that force = mass x accelleration. In other words the bigger you are, and the faster you are accellerating (which is a very different thing to how fast you are going) then the more force you bring to the point of contact.

Therefore strength ain't really such a big deal in terms of hit ups - except the strength to accellerate (leg drive). Of far more importance is technique.

If you stop before the line your accelleration is also going backwards - therfore you end up on your arse. If you veer sideways at the line and the defender hits you front on the resultant force is back and to the side - and you end up on your arse again.
If you hit the defender head on it's a pure clash of force. If you're bigger and accellerating harder than the defender (and there ain't many guys who want to go forward towards 110kg charging at you ie accelleration = 0) then you go over the top, or through or whatever. Add a fend and extra leg drive and you are on your way. Here endeth the lesson Physics for Front Rowers 101.

Just remember - drive those legs boys and accellerate into the defence.

 

[Snide the Tiger]

Laurie Daley in the pre-season pinpointed leg speed as one of our biggest shortcomings in the forwards! (Viane is the only foward in our squad who can make an impression from a standing start)!

That simply means they don't hit the line as hard at their opponents - as evidenced often by Skando and O'Neill (despite their wholehearted efforts)!

I believe pound for pound - blokes like Sattler - Senter - Halatau etc are up there with the strongest in the NRL - but they will always struggle against bigger men who are comparably as strong!

For example - Satts V Waterhouse at lock is a lay down misere for Waterhouse!

 

[Snide the Tiger]

Great minds think alike Yappy!

 

[yappy]

BTW the converse works for tackling. If you can move forward into a hit even the biggest lumps go down. Driving your legs (accelleration) as you make the tackle increases the force applied. Now if the other guys is running straight at you and accellerating someone is gonna get hurt. But what happens more often is that they prop, or slow before the line. That means they are applying no force whatsoever to you when you hit em and they get crunched. Those of us who have played even a little will remember making tackles that felt like the easiest thing ever, but send your opponent flying (or at least you would if you could tackle at all properly ;-) ). This is the reason why.

 

[Snide the Tiger]

Correct Yappy - but if both parties drive equally that leads to the immoveable object versus unstoppable force scenario and enables the attacker to stand in the tackle (and potentially offload)!

That is why one of the most basic defensive techniques taught at the youngest age is the abilty to hit and slide and effectively submit in the tackle to the attacking player ensuring they are grounded in the one motion!

Of course that technique does not enable a dominant tackle - but it does limit the potential for 2nd phase ball!

 

[yappy]

Go and watch Marty Lang. He is one of the best hit up exponents you will ever see.

Why?
1. He's Big #-o
2. He gets deep and sprints onto the ball. Why is this important Yappy if accelleration at the point of contact is such a big deal? Because it closes the gap quicker. If you take the ball from a standing start then you have to accellerate up to top speed and so you won't make as many metres in the same time as someone already motoring.
3. He slows down as he reaches the defence. Huh? I thought you said this was BAD. It would be if you got tackled at this point, BUT, when you're running at top speed you cannot accellerate (except negatively of course). So Marty when he's at his best breaks his run into two parts. He sprints up for the first bit, slows a little, then:
4. He accellerates straight and hard into the defence. Just watch him. He gathers himself and then braces and tries to puch through the line. No propping or stepping or weaving - just the good old fashioned Maori sidestep.
5. He keeps pumping the legs until he gets grounded.

Welcome to the secret of yardage.

Don't tell me Clinton hasn't learned much from watching Lang.

 

[yappy]

That is why one of the most basic defensive techniques taught at the youngest age is the abilty to hit and slide and effectively submit in the tackle to the attacking player ensuring they are grounded in the one motion!

Yeah mate, but different situations call for different techniques. I'm more talking about fixed line defence. With a single man hitting up there should be no excuse for not trying to knock them over (especially as you'll likely have two or three in the tackle). On occasions they get a pass away (and often not a good one), but that's a small price to pay for saving yards and maintaining a fixed line. Certainly better than conceding the extra couple of yards every tackle and having your defence back peddling.

Out wider and one on one where the more important thing is to get the ball carrier down fast, using the runners momentum to bring them down on their face is the better bet.

But back to the subject of the topic - I think we both agree it's not the Tiges lack of strength that is a problem, but how they use what strength they have.

 

[Snide the Tiger]

Exactly yap - the technique I referred to is in wide and one-on-one situations - but sometimes last year I wished Linc had tried it rather than attempting to pull off a shoulder hit and getting bumped off by a bigger man!

What we need is a focus on sprint training plus power and pace off the mark for all our forwards!

Blocker had great leg speed for his size and even before his current role with Manly helped Fulton hone that aspect of Carroll's game - but we never employed his talent and the Eagles forwards are now benefitting from his wisdom!

 

[simon says]

Thanks for the physics lesson guys. :? :?

But I agree with Ink.We seem to go no where in tackles.Even little blokes seem to be able to realease there arms,or walk a few metres.Blokes like Dean Young and Mark Minicello(who are fit but not huge)just walked through our pack time and time again.

I dont know what the answer is,strength,intesity,agro,leg drive..........take yer pick.But atm we are cannon fodder for teams that take us on up the middle with fast play the balls.Souths did it tp us,Saints followed suit.

Time for some raw steaks beofre the game and some face slapping I reckon.....bugger the math.

;-) ;-)

 

[Snide the Tiger]

simon - the point that yappy and I make is that it is not just brute strength that will break the line - it is leg drive and technique when hitting the line!

A guy like Dene Halatau would have greater upper-body strength pound for pound than many of his colleagues - but he needs to really pump his legs and hit half gaps if he is to make an impression when hitting the ball up!

A bit of mongrel and extra effort does not go astray either!

 

[yappy]

The real point though is they need to be shown how to utilise that bit of mongrel and everything else they have. This is called coaching. (or at least that's what I thought coaches were for)

All the effort in the world ain't going to help you if your technique is crap. I could go out and try my guts out to bowl Brian Lara, but he'd slap me for 800 because I bowl pies.

All the fancy moves and game plans you can think of aren't worth a pinch if you can't do simple stuff like make effective hit ups and tackles. When you have technique then attitude helps, but you're more likely to maintain your enthusiasm when your technique is good, because success breeds success.

Yes the Tigers made a mistake by not bringing in more meat (I believe). But the biggest mistake is not working on improving the individual technique of the players they have. The players there today could be making much greater quality hit ups with better technique - even Patto.

 

[Snide the Tiger]

Patto simply should be much better given his ample frame - but he lacks aggression and the ability to use his size effectively!!

Skando has always had heart - size and solid ball skills - but never the leg drive or leg speed to really trouble the defence!

Sheens and all his staff do need to pay more attention to the needs of individuals - and mentor them as to how to get the best out of their ability!

 

[magpiemax]

It's amazing what hitting the line at pace will do.

Anyone who can remember their high school physics knows that force = mass x accelleration. In other words the bigger you are, and the faster you are accellerating (which is a very different thing to how fast you are going) then the more force you bring to the point of contact.

Therefore strength ain't really such a big deal in terms of hit ups - except the strength to accellerate (leg drive). Of far more importance is technique.

If you stop before the line your accelleration is also going backwards - therfore you end up on your arse. If you veer sideways at the line and the defender hits you front on the resultant force is back and to the side - and you end up on your arse again.
If you hit the defender head on it's a pure clash of force. If you're bigger and accellerating harder than the defender (and there ain't many guys who want to go forward towards 110kg charging at you ie accelleration = 0) then you go over the top, or through or whatever. Add a fend and extra leg drive and you are on your way. Here endeth the lesson Physics for Front Rowers 101.

Just remember - drive those legs boys and accellerate into the defence.

PHYSICS!!Well unfortunatley when I left school in year 10 we were not taught anything of that description unless it was embossed under the table or in the articles that were in Ribald magazines.But I think what you mean is you want them as big as Tookey and as fast as Larry Corowa with a fend like John Ribot De Bresac,which is almost impossible unless you got there DNA and created one. :shock:

 

[yappy]

Actually that's exactly what I'm not saying. I am saying you need to use your brain to make the best use of what you have.

Did Ribald have articles?