Super 18 what does it mean for NRL expansion?

[Billythekid]

TBF the Knights have been on the verge of closure a few times and were saved by Tinkler most recently. Nice stadium, good fanbase, still cant get the corporate support to make them sustainable.

I think this is pretty misleading. I'd say that has more to do with how the knights have been run over the years than anything else.

 

[docbrown]

TBF the Knights have been on the verge of closure a few times and were saved by Tinkler most recently. Nice stadium, good fanbase, still cant get the corporate support to make them sustainable. Gosford has less than 200k people in it, add a 100k more within 30min drive but is it really enough to sustain a team when we want teams to be drawing 20k, have incomes of $20mill and be driving NRL tv ratings? They are in a very similiar situation to Wollongong, would you suggest we should put another team down there? A partial relocation is by far the best option for Gosford or setting an NRL game program for them with the clubs that have the biggest fanbases there. Manly v Tigers, Souths, Knights, St's would all draw a crowd there.

Corporate support fluctuates with success, at the moment it's down slightly because it's been 13 years since the last premiership. But there has never been a time when it was so bad that we got our candles out and prayed to god that the club didn't fold... :crazy:

We've changed owners/management structures - like countless other sports sides - don't try and rewrite history.

The Central Coast catchment is 330k - which is bigger than what Newcastle was when the Knights were introduced.

The strategy of playing neutral games long term (20, 30, 40, 50 years?) at Gosford on top of the 20 years already is just going to result in reduced interest.

And no, no existing Sydney NRL team should relocate there because the NRL shouldn't be contracting its presence in Sydney given the competitive sporting marketplace.

That's because most people still don't understand that RL is a business that needs to make money to survive

The Central Coast Bears coming into the NRL won't kill the league. It's all hyperbole.

I would argue all of those HQs are in the direct vicinity of NS considering that they are based in Sydney

My god, I'm not going to re-quote the rest of that ramble of yours but if this is your core logic -- that any business in Sydney is under consideration -- then fine --
List every corporation in Sydney that currently doesn't have an affiliation with an NRL team.

Because according to your "logic" they're all close enough to North Sydney to be up for grabs.

Here's my prediction - it's going to be a pretty f**king long list. :lol:

Trying to make out that Sydney is somehow tapped out or can't be touched, it's just irrational. Can you seriously not see how you're skewing reality to support your predetermined conviction?

Again I never said that "the Mariners woes somehow affects the Bears", I said that the problem the Mariners are facing are indicative of the problems that the Bears might face.

Different situation, different result and different reasons.

Bids are not the only way to expand the NRL and even if it were none of those bids would need to be ready before 2020, that's a long time to plan a bid.

Expansion should happen so that 1 extra game is added in the year prior or starting to the next broadcast negotiation. 2020 is too late.

What do you mean when you say that the Brisbane based bids aren't up to scratch?

Go read what I've written on those Queensland expansion threads. I disagree about bids. The NRL needs to set very specific criteria (names, logos, stadia, target marketing etc) and get multiple tenders in each designated market so they can choose from the best of many alternatives rather than just the 1 designed by committee.

Stagnation of Manly's supporters base never hurt them on the field

I'm not talking about on field performance, I'm talking about the Raiders getting fans to matches regardless of where they sit on the ladder.

At the end of the day the Raiders are sh!t house at garnering and keeping fans,, until very recently they seemed to think that insulting their supporters was the way to go, add to that 20 year of mediocrity, the culture in Canberra of only supporting winners and the very cold weather when the NRL season is on and naturally you get very low crowds.

But the 2010 and 2012 home finals prove that if the Raiders are going well the support is there to fill Bruce, the problem is getting that support to turn up week in and week out no matter the results and that's not an easy problem to fix at all.

I agree with all that. Like I said - it's about getting fans to matches regardless of performance.

 

[docbrown]

If the CC was to be bid ready they'd need to clean up the lot and make the area as independent as possible and the bid.

You can't blame the Bears bid for the NRL's indecisiveness when it comes to the future of the Central Coast.

The region suffers not because of the Bears but because THERE IS NO PLAN. Even the people saying "Well the Bears shouldn't have a side" the only alternative they come up with is MORE OF THE SAME. It's not good enough.

The other teams are only in it for short term gain and we've seen time and time again how that creates nothing. The Bears are there for the long haul.

I think this is pretty misleading. I'd say that has more to do with how the knights have been run over the years than anything else.

Agreed. Bending reality to fit a predetermined agenda.

 

[oikee]

Yes Doc, get one team in Perth first. I understand that, even i would not be stupid enough to put two teams into Perth next expansion.
But still, two teams in Melbourne and Perth is the way forward, dont leave one team in Perth to struggle on it's own, That is why the AFL has doubled up in nearly every state.
We have to live and learn, the AFL is showing us what not to do and what to do.
We need to learn by their success, and mistakes.
Adelaide is a mistake. For our code. For now.

 

[The Great Dane]

The Central Coast Bears coming into the NRL won't kill the league. It's all hyperbole.

Really another straw man, I thought we were starting to get past this.

I never once suggested that admitting a CC team would kill the NRL.

My god, I'm not going to re-quote the rest of that ramble of yours but if this is your core logic -- that any business in Sydney is under consideration -- then fine --

That's not my "core logic" at all, rather it was a comment on people from large cities strange need to consider sub-markets to be separate markets from the core market they are a part of.

Trying to make out that Sydney is somehow tapped out or can't be touched, it's just irrational. Can you seriously not see how you're skewing reality to support your predetermined conviction?

Again I didn't say that the Sydney market can't be touched (it most certainly could be), I just said that considering the current sports climate in Sydney it wouldn't be in the NRL's best interests to fiddle to much with the Sydney market, as any changes in the market are almost certainly going to have adverse affects on other NRL clubs in the market and not competitors clubs.

In other words I don't think that placing the Bears on the CC is worth the added pressure it'd put on Manly, Wests, Cronulla and the Dragons.

What's the point in trading 9 already struggling clubs for 10 clubs struggling even more!

Expansion should happen so that 1 extra game is added in the year prior or starting to the next broadcast negotiation. 2020 is too late.

Up pops another one of those straw men.

I never said that the NRL should halt expansion until 2020, only that the potential bids we were talking about wouldn't need to be prepared until about 2020 (more realistically about 2022) and that is a long time to prepare a bid.

And again a bidding process isn't the only way to expand a competition, in fact IMO it's a very clumsy way to expand a competition as it allows outside forces to effect the direction in which the new club heads.
IMO for competitions with the money to found and operate their own new clubs (before eventually selling the club to new owners once they're established) that's a much better way to go about expansion as the governing body has more control over the outcomes of the expansion.

I disagree about bids. The NRL needs to set very specific criteria (names, logos, stadia, target marketing etc) and get multiple tenders in each designated market so they can choose from the best of many alternatives rather than just the 1 designed by committee.

What's disagreement?

I agree with all that, if the NRL is taking bids that is.

 

[pHyR3]

the biggest reason i feel CC bears wouldnt work is their rather average crowds at gosford that dont shout 'we need a team.' 12.5k avg. over 2 games this year, 13.1k avg. over 5 games last year.

Also, the NRLs resources are far better utilised expanding into new territory on the west coast, and producing another healthy club in QLD that could potentially average 20k and produce 50k derbys vs Broncos and 25k+ with the cows if they picked up some support.

Manly could take over that territory and engage with the community as well, which no club can do with perth and broncos can only do at a limited capacity in the western corridor (mostly due to their history and animosity to the broncs).

Add in low sponsorship dollars due to overcrowding, i just cant see it happening in the next 10 years.

 

[Eddie Lab]

super 18 is officially happening in 2016 and it's crazy

 

[Loose Cannon]

the biggest reason i feel CC bears wouldnt work is their rather average crowds at gosford that dont shout 'we need a team.' 12.5k avg. over 2 games this year, 13.1k avg. over 5 games last year.

Also, the NRLs resources are far better utilised expanding into new territory on the west coast, and producing another healthy club in QLD that could potentially average 20k and produce 50k derbys vs Broncos and 25k+ with the cows if they picked up some support.

Manly could take over that territory and engage with the community as well, which no club can do with perth and broncos can only do at a limited capacity in the western corridor (mostly due to their history and animosity to the broncs).

Add in low sponsorship dollars due to overcrowding, i just cant see it happening in the next 10 years.

I certainly agree there are more important markets as options than CC. I personally would like Perth and Ipswich to win licenses. At the same time, I would be very happy to see the Bears brand back in the top flight.

The NRL need to make the Bears aware early if they have no intention of opening a Central Coast franchise. If this is the case, perhaps the Bears group could be encouraged to focus attention on a designated "second generation" expansion area (2022/2025). I understand they are wholly focused on their current plight, but if without the hope of a license where they want, would they be interested in doing the groundwork for a "guaranteed" future license in NZ or Adelaide?

It would be a hard slog in the early stages, and the NRL would subsidise (if not finance) their efforts and work in conjunction with the bid team in order to grow the game in that market before it hits the big time. It just seems a smarter option than the "raffle" of the current process.

Now, before any Norths fans poke holes in my suggestion, the reason I singled them out is because a failed bid this time means it's all over for the Central Coast project, unlike for example if and when CQ miss out. It will not be revisited, and I would like to see some of the people involved remain in the game.

 

[Flapper]

I guess it's handy that there are two extra teams in the Australasian conference for when Melbourne and Western Force fold.

 

[CC_Roosters]

I guess it's handy that there are two extra teams in the Australasian conference for when Melbourne and Western Force fold.

So the japanese team will apparently play 3 games in singapore, why dont they just callit asia. The elite and decent talent in union is going to be spread very thin globally with this expansion and i can see some rather large decreases in average attendance with this format.

If they think the european based argentinians are going to give up lucrative top 14 and english contracts sanzar are dreaming. Less derbies in australia = less interest and more matches betweem south african sides means many of the teams will play each other 4 times in a season! From what i have read most union fans think this will end badly.

 

[Perth Red]

Time is ripe for a NRL pirates to put another nail in the farce coffin. Plenty of rl fans go to force games due to no alternative.

Wonder when the prime time for the NRL to announce expansîon is? Maybe reb time to give a boost to season kick off?

 

[Diesel]

Or a real FU to RU in the west would be to buy the Farce and turn it into a RL club. I don't know how bad the brand is in the west, but how long can the ARU prop up the Force and the Rebels? And to most WA'ers, RU and RL are the same thing so you already have an established brand name

 

[Foreign Legion]

Or a real FU to RU in the west would be to buy the Farce and turn it into a RL club. I don't know how bad the brand is in the west, but how long can the ARU prop up the Force and the Rebels? And to most WA'ers, RU and RL are the same thing so you already have an established brand name

Force is a horrible brand name.... Any kid can draw a Pirate but ask them to draw a force, and they'll look at you funny... I remember when I was a kid I used to draw my favourite team logo like every chance I could during primary school

 

[Rodney]

So the japanese team will apparently play 3 games in singapore, why dont they just callit asia.

Even for Super Rugby an asian continent team would be a bit of a general area to call home.
I think they're trying to appeal to at least a portion of their target in Japan and then sponge off the expat base in Singapore for some of the other games.
And even then, 1 team representing all of Japan!

The elite and decent talent in union is going to be spread very thin globally with this expansion and i can see some rather large decreases in average attendance with this format.

If they think the european based argentinians are going to give up lucrative top 14 and english contracts sanzar are dreaming.

This is going to be a major concern.
Especially with Australia supposed to be allowing some of our best go on to France for a year after the world cup.
And South Africa being spread further then ever.
I don't see the player base for this expansion.
Super Rugby has, if anything, been calling for a downsizing as there are more places than there are quality players.
Australia has almost no depth as it is and South Africa have been struggling to combat their player drain with consistent appearances in the bottom 3.
The competition lacks the financial weight to draw the talent it needs and the money they're getting from the expansion isn't going to be nearly enough by the looks of things.

Less derbies in australia = less interest and more matches betweem south african sides means many of the teams will play each other 4 times in a season! From what i have read most union fans think this will end badly.

yep, I don't think this latest expansion is much to worry about.
If anything it provides opportunities to expand while resources are stretched even further and thinner than before.

 

[pHyR3]

Time is ripe for a NRL pirates to put another nail in the farce coffin. Plenty of rl fans go to force games due to no alternative.

Wonder when the prime time for the NRL to announce expansîon is? Maybe reb time to give a boost to season kick off?

either before nines or late feb.

probably late feb for a big round 1 and 2, get some good publicity going.

 

[alien]

Force is a horrible brand name.... Any kid can draw a Pirate but ask them to draw a force, and they'll look at you funny... I remember when I was a kid I used to draw my favourite team logo like every chance I could during primary school

But would a kid prefer a pirate or a kangaroo (Reds)???

 

[Manurewa_Marlins]

Pirate.

 

[Perth Red]

Yeh the kids I e bought gear for prefer the pirate stuff, though the Reds logo was good.