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Salary Cap Compliance vs Salary Cap Limit

emjaycee

Coach
Messages
14,665
Mods will probably transfer this but I would rather they didn't because I don't want it lost in the messy Salary Cap Mark III thread but here goes:

I am hearing that we will NOT be getting points back regardless of any reduction in our cap value and that the dollar value of our cap has little to do with the points we have been preliminarily docked.

The reason is simple and complex at the same time.

The points penalty relates to us breeching Salary Cap Compliance which is comprised of more than the Salary Cap Limit.

To be compliant with the Salary Cap rules, you need to do a number of things including being under the dollar value allowed AND correctly declaring all TPA's. It is the second of these points that the NRL has used to fine us points.

Basically, what the NRL did was identify that we had INCORRECTLY declared some TPA's and based on this they ascertained that ALL of our TPA's for the last 3 years were INCORRECTLY declared. They then took the combined value of these TPA's and included them in this years cap value, effectively putting us over the cap value limit (the amount is in dispute but we were still over).

To play for points next week, we need to bring our cap into line. Because they have included TPA's that were INCORRECTLY declared into our cap value, we need to reduce the value below the limit - hence the Watmough retirement, the Morgan transfer, the discussion re: being under the cap value by $200k, etc. Backdating Watmough's retirement may reduce the value of our cap, but not the fact we were non-compliant.

From rounds 1-9 we had INCORRECTLY declared TPA's so we were still not compliant with the Salary Cap Rules and hence the points are not coming back.
 

Parra

Referee
Messages
24,900
Never known a code to consistently shoot itself in the foot.

To actively find new ways of shooting itself in the foot.

F1 tries hard, but RL is the king.
 

Joshuatheeel

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
21,013
So if that is the case why didn't the NRL just state it at the press conference? And in the report / press release.

Also you have suggested we won't get points back but what if the $Xxx of TPA's added back to the 2016 cap is halved after our response ?

And where is the evidence we incorrectly declared TPA's?
 

Chipmunk

Coach
Messages
18,122
The NRL appears to be back pedaling on things faster than a fat f**ker in a spin class...
 
Messages
2
Delineating between fact and fiction

Given suspicions around motives on one’s opinion, for the record I am a season ticket holder of the Eels however I have no ties to the incumbent or previous board. It’s fair to say I’m an average punter that’s at ‘arms-length’ from the inner workings of the club. Nor do I have a legal background.

I refuse to be drawn into how or why Parramatta got into this position, whether it was a result of driving market forces, desperation due to a flawed salary cap structure, whether other clubs are undertaking similar practices, or the like (notwithstanding Gus’ balanced SMH write-up was certainly thought provoking and raised valid points that need to be addressed for the game’s long-term viability). Nor will I speculate on the political agendas of any said parties, both factions within the club and those externally associated with the club.

In the lead-up to Tuesday’s big reveal there was a lot of noise, with seemingly ‘aligned’ media outlets pushing propaganda and those genuinely neutral entities cleverly piggybacking off the interest to increase clicks and circulation. In essence, with the public’ opinion effectively pre-framed, Tuesday was merely ratifying mostly what people had heard or read.

Tuesday came, and as certain as taxes being contentious in the budget announcement, there was a groundswell of hysteria and inevitably further unsubstantiated rumours, triggering an avalanche of emotional reactions largely crucifying those responsible.

Before I continue I must stress that I am not naïve to think the NRL hasn’t applied due diligence in their investigation and has water-tight evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Parramatta club has engaged in some unscrupulous practices. The NRL would have utilised resources (legal counsel) to vet the findings and proposed sanctions before issuing the breach notice.

The facts, at point in time, are preliminary and are yet to be countered by the accused. Until then, I will reserve judgment. In the interim, I ponder a couple of fundamental principles… intent and context.

As it stands, what was perhaps perceived (or hoped by supporters) as a few ‘unseasoned’ and potentially blissfully ignorant administrators engaging in questionable behaviour and activities has essentially escalated into multiple governing administrators (current and their predecessors) undertaking fraudulent and deceptive conduct. The press release made reference to a systemic and intentional rort, through devising and implementing a ‘system’ that was deliberately designed to complement the salary cap and avoid detection. These are strong allegations, and according to facts tendered by the NRL and endorsed by media commentators, are being floated as being undisputed.

In the same vein as the parallel between a charge of murder vs manslaughter, it’s important a distinction of intent is made. A few isolated, unrelated transgressions under the guardianship of a particular regime that compound to a serious issue of mismanagement, is vastly different to a planned, elaborate scheme to conceal illegal player payments and executed knowingly by several administrations. Intent should be a key contributor to consequences, and as such I suggest its contingent upon league headquarters to (within reason) help the community understand the nature and extent of the alleged ‘corruption’ and therefore validate the proposed penalties.

I was similarly surprised by the other headline statement that Parramatta had cheated the cap by an incredulous $3mil over the past 4 years. This is incongruent with previous assertions from the Parramatta club (and seemingly endorsed by the NRL) of being cap complaint for 2016, and previous years being marginally above tolerance due to in part to technical nuances (for example around the 2nd tier cap and assumed exemptions for injured players etc) in which penalties had been duly imposed. The quantum of the alleged breach would place it in the magnitude in the range of historical indiscretions.

It’s critical Mr Greenberg defines the context by qualifying the breach at a more granular level. This is important for the legitimacy of the salary cap model, and the credibility of the NRL itself in setting precedents and ‘benchmarking’ the equality of penalties against previous breaches. In the absence of a mandated charter on consequences for contravening NRL’s agreement and rules, rightly or wrongly the public (and NRL’ licensees), assess the scale or seriousness of the ‘cheating’ through a frame of reference (which for many the Bulldogs or Storm scenarios are likely to be anchor points).

There is a lot of confusion and speculation, the game needs the facts… explicit and tested. There are more questions than answers. Did the NRL defer the announcement and what flow-on effects has this created? What is the demarcation between salary cap and TPA breaches? Furthermore between guaranteed and non-guaranteed TPAs, and what should appropriately be included in the salary cap? This list is not exhaustive. I am not familiar with legislation and I do not contemplate the answers through a legal lens. I believe all points of interest should pass the time honoured ‘reasonableness test’.

I respect the right of the NRL to exercise due process. I am not sure whether they are required to release the detail of their findings, however I would encourage a brief synopsis at the appropriate time to qualify the determination and associated penalties, especially given this ‘case’ has been played out in the public domain and has generated significant interest. Make no mistake, the outcome will have far-reaching implications.

Mr Greenberg, as CEO of the NRL, has an obligation to protect the NRL brand and product. The damage created to the brand through years of instability at Parramatta is rightfully Mr Greenberg’s first priority… this sentiment was well emphasised in the press release and I suspect would be shared by the lion share of Parramatta members. Mr Greenberg would also be acutely conscious of the growing popularity of substitute products and their expanding footprint into traditional rugby league territories.

Parramatta has a similar duty of care to its members, and equally should be afforded the same opportunity to protect their brand and product. The residual impacts of the final outcome will have both monetary and non-monetary implications to the Parramatta club. Financially, it’s conceivable Parramatta will experience material losses in gate receipts, membership penetration and revenue (attrition of current, adoption of new members), and merchandise sales. It will be more difficult to measure the unfavourable impact on brand equity, and the ability for Parramatta to grow its presence (as a symptom of the negative stigma of ‘cheating’ and having its brand tarnished).

In arriving at his final determination, Mr Greenberg will need to delicately balance all considerations and be careful not to shoehorn or retrofit facts to achieve a desired outcome. The common hypothesis seems to be that the NRL would like to facilitate a clean out of the current governance regime, in which they will receive little resistance given the well documented deep-seeded issues hamstringing the club (and therefore the NRL brand and product). However given the seriousness and complexity of the accusations, Mr Greenberg would be encouraged to exercise caution in expediting the process and leveraging public and media backlash to apply pressure (I would assume some individuals would be concerned with admitting liability and subsequent personal reputation issues). Mr Greenberg should also apply diligence in how it deconstructs the penalties and utilises mechanisms to achieve its objectives (for example using ‘points accrual’ as a lever and linking it to its ‘stand-down’ orders). There is too much at stake, and if not carefully executed could expose the NRL to legal recourse, have long-term impacts for Parramatta and broader implications for the game.

It’s clear Parramatta’s governance requires reform, and arguably its overarching constitution. The NRL should also use this opportunity to reform the salary cap. The Parramatta club has lacked integrity, at this critical juncture for the game the NRL needs to be demonstrate its integrity… through transparency.
 

emjaycee

Coach
Messages
14,665
The NRL aren't back pedalling as far as I can see - the media release on Tuesday stated twice that we had breached the Salary Cap RULES (bolded in the below quote).

An investigation by the NRL's Integrity Unit has made preliminary findings that since at least 2013 the Parramatta Rugby League Club has been operating a system designed to enable it to exceed the salary cap without detection and give its team an unfair advantage.

The preliminary findings from the investigation include that a series of payments were either hidden from the NRL or misrepresented as suitable for exclusion from the salary cap and that these actions were taken with the knowledge and approval of various club Directors and senior executives.

As a result of these preliminary findings the NRL has today issued the Parramatta club with a breach notice proposing that:

- The club will be fined the maximum penalty of $1 million (with $250,000 suspended if the club accelerates the governance reforms recommended by PWC within a specified time frame)

- The Parramatta Eels will be docked all competition points accumulated so far this season while their team was in breach of the salary cap. The club will be able to begin accruing points as soon as it makes the necessary changes to comply with the 2016 cap.

- The club will be stripped of its Auckland Nines competition title won earlier this year

The NRL has also issued notices to three members of the Club's Board and two members of the Executive requiring them to show cause why their registrations should not be cancelled. They are Chairman Steve Sharp, Deputy Chairman Tom Issa, Director Peter Serrao, CEO John Boulous and Football Manager Daniel Anderson.

The NRL stresses that these are preliminary findings and the club and officials will be given a reasonable time to respond to the proposed penalties.

The NRL will only make a final determination on whether the preliminary findings are justified and the proposed penalties once it has considered the responses of the club and the officials.

CEO Todd Greenberg said if the preliminary findings prove to be justified then serious sanctions will be required given the conduct and the club’s history of salary cap contraventions.

"As the governing body, we have a responsibility to act in the interests of the game for the long term," Mr Greenberg said.

"At times, it gives us no pleasure to have to do so and this is one of those. But we have to take a stand on behalf of the fans, the club and the game.

Mr Greenberg said the club had been fined for breaches of the salary cap rules in five of the last six years and now it had been exposed for operating a system designed to cheat the cap.

"We will need to take a stand on behalf of the fans, the club and the game," Mr Greenberg said.

"This would be a tough outcome for many people, particularly the players and fans, but we believe it would be the start of a process to make the Parramatta club the powerhouse it should be.

"Unfortunately, we may have to go through this pain for the long term health of the club and the game."

In broad terms, the Integrity Unit investigation has made preliminary findings that the Parramatta club breached the salary cap rules and code of conduct by:

- Paying players undisclosed remuneration from its own resources

- Procuring third party agreements for players in breach of the salary cap rules

- Conspiring with club suppliers to inflate or issue fictitious invoices to raise cash that was then relayed to players

Head of Integrity, Nick Weeks said the club and its registered officials had been given numerous opportunities to meet their obligations to come forward with details of any breaches but had not done so.

This was despite the fact the club appears to have been aware of some of the matters which have been reported to the NRL.

Mr Weeks said the NRL's Salary Cap Auditors estimated that the Parramatta Eels are currently around $570,000 over the salary cap.

Mr Weeks said the investigation was one of the most comprehensive ever conducted by the Integrity Unit.

More than 750,000 documents had been obtained and interviews had been conducted with Board members, football staff, club officials, former officials and other parties.

Source: https://www.nrl.com/parramatta-salary-cap-preliminary-findings/tabid/10871/newsid/95530/default.aspx
 
Messages
19,724
Mods will probably transfer this but I would rather they didn't because I don't want it lost in the messy Salary Cap Mark III thread but here goes:

I am hearing that we will NOT be getting points back regardless of any reduction in our cap value and that the dollar value of our cap has little to do with the points we have been preliminarily docked.

The reason is simple and complex at the same time.

The points penalty relates to us breeching Salary Cap Compliance which is comprised of more than the Salary Cap Limit.

To be compliant with the Salary Cap rules, you need to do a number of things including being under the dollar value allowed AND correctly declaring all TPA's. It is the second of these points that the NRL has used to fine us points.

Basically, what the NRL did was identify that we had INCORRECTLY declared some TPA's and based on this they ascertained that ALL of our TPA's for the last 3 years were INCORRECTLY declared. They then took the combined value of these TPA's and included them in this years cap value, effectively putting us over the cap value limit (the amount is in dispute but we were still over).

To play for points next week, we need to bring our cap into line. Because they have included TPA's that were INCORRECTLY declared into our cap value, we need to reduce the value below the limit - hence the Watmough retirement, the Morgan transfer, the discussion re: being under the cap value by $200k, etc. Backdating Watmough's retirement may reduce the value of our cap, but not the fact we were non-compliant.

From rounds 1-9 we had INCORRECTLY declared TPA's so we were still not compliant with the Salary Cap Rules and hence the points are not coming back.

Yeh. This is what I understood them to be arguing since Tuesday. However, we can challenge whether or not TPAs were, in fact, incorrectly declared, and if we get some success, we can argue that the 12 point penalty is excessive.
 

Joshuatheeel

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
21,013
- The Parramatta Eels will be docked all competition points accumulated so far this season while their team was in breach of the salary cap. The club will be able to begin accruing points as soon as it makes the necessary changes to comply with the 2016 cap.

So what if the breach isn't as bad as reported ?
 

emjaycee

Coach
Messages
14,665
Delineating between fact and fiction

Given suspicions around motives on one?s opinion, for the record I am a season ticket holder of the Eels however I have no ties to the incumbent or previous board. It?s fair to say I?m an average punter that?s at ?arms-length? from the inner workings of the club. Nor do I have a legal background.

...


It?s clear Parramatta?s governance requires reform, and arguably its overarching constitution. The NRL should also use this opportunity to reform the salary cap. The Parramatta club has lacked integrity, at this critical juncture for the game the NRL needs to be demonstrate its integrity? through transparency.

:clap::clap::clap:
 

Delboy

First Grade
Messages
8,287
Here's the basic issue

The NRL has decided that compliance to the strict letter of the law is absolute. So as long as they institute similar investigations at all clubs, with particular emphasis on those with outstanding rosters, and forensically examine all documents and emails, then I doubt even the most cynical would object

However, whilst Greenberg buries his head in the sand with comments like " I am confident all other clubs are fine" , particularly given his role at the dogs , then somehow it seems sensible to at least question the punishment being even handed. In some ways it reflects poorly on the objective of those who make ongoing leaks and innuendos via their media matesto further their own cause
 

emjaycee

Coach
Messages
14,665
Yeh. This is what I understood them to be arguing since Tuesday. However, we can challenge whether or not TPAs were, in fact, incorrectly declared, and if we get some success, we can argue that the 12 point penalty is excessive.

I agree but I think this part of the media statement sums it up best:

In broad terms, the Integrity Unit investigation has made preliminary findings that the Parramatta club breached the salary cap rules and code of conduct by:

- Paying players undisclosed remuneration from its own resources

- Procuring third party agreements for players in breach of the salary cap rules

- Conspiring with club suppliers to inflate or issue fictitious invoices to raise cash that was then relayed to players

Source: https://www.nrl.com/parramatta-salary-cap-preliminary-findings/tabid/10871/newsid/95530/default.aspx

3 individual points that we would have to fight and get exoneration on each of, before they would consider we were not breaking/breaching the rules.
 

emjaycee

Coach
Messages
14,665
They have already agreed we could play for points while the big 5 take action after saying they wouldn't

Yeah ok - my bad.
I was responding to Chipmunk's post which I interpreted as being related to the NRL back pedalling on why they took points.
 
Messages
2
It's the random or arbitrary application of the points penalty that in my opinion needs to be justified.

I understand we were deducted the amount of points we had accumulated whilst being uncompliant. The timing of the announcement is therefore at the heart of the matter, as the club could have accelerated the required 'trimming' to be under the cap threshold much earlier. There is also the core question of whether all TPAs were bundled including legitimate ones?

Given the hint of double counting etc, it does cast some doubt on the validity of the overspend
 

Delboy

First Grade
Messages
8,287
You might be missing the point - the breach isn't about the dollar value, it is about breaking the rules about HOW we operated within the cap.

Part of the problem people are concerned about is that the auditors passed the club earlier this year, and this only was discovered thanks to the usual suspects. How can the NRL be confident that these compliance issues are not a cancer at each club, perhaps not those NRL administers as they have virtually no TPAs ( wonder why)

Until a full audited forensic investigation at each club is carried out, then suspicions remain at how this was targeted at one club with little concern about the TPA problems in the game.
 

emjaycee

Coach
Messages
14,665
Part of the problem people are concerned about is that the auditors passed the club earlier this year, and this only was discovered thanks to the usual suspects. How can the NRL be confident that these compliance issues are not a cancer at each club, perhaps not those NRL administers as they have virtually no TPAs ( wonder why)

Until a full audited forensic investigation at each club is carried out, then suspicions remain at how this was targeted at one club with little concern about the TPA problems in the game.

Yep, agree but there is little we can do about what happens at other clubs.

Just because we had whistle-blowers and are great clickbait doesn't negate the fact WE were investigated and found wanting. If other clubs can get away with similar behaviour for longer then lucky them.
 

ash411

Bench
Messages
3,411
Yep, agree but there is little we can do about what happens at other clubs.

Just because we had whistle-blowers and are great clickbait doesn't negate the fact WE were investigated and found wanting. If other clubs can get away with similar behaviour for longer then lucky them.

Exactly, even if all other 15 clubs are cheating the cap, it doesn't excuse us for doing it, just because we got caught.

What any of the other clubs are doing in this matter is completely irrelevant. When it does gain relevance is the broader discussion on the Salary cap, and it's effectiveness. But that discussion doesn't help us now, not really.
 

ash411

Bench
Messages
3,411
Ash has to be putting his hand up as a nominee for the new board

F**k no. Nada. Niet. uh uh, no way, nah.

Not a chance in hell, firstly I'm not anywhere near qualified to do that, and I don't have the time, and I'm not a masochist.
 

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