MATT DUFTY v the doomsday brigade

[BennyV]

Big ask for the small, young fellow to survive a full year at fullback in first grade - plenty of super talented fullbacks struggled with fatigue in their first year (RTS, French, Mitchell).

Would be useful to have Mann on the wing to relieve him.

 

[watatank]

Incorrect Melbourne was after him when he was 18 and also the warriors tried to get him.last year .

I didn't say no one wanted Dufty, I said that he's not in big demand. All the clubs mentioned on here that were supposedly interested in Dufty had other options and didn't end up signing him.

I just wish some of you doubters give him a chance if he's not good enough THE BIG RED V will chew him up and spit him out .so let's SEE

So some aren't convinced, what's so wrong with that? Dufty has been given a chance, whether people like it or not. But he still needs to prove himself in what will be a contract year. We'll see what happens.

 

[watatank]

Ideally it would have been good to have another option to solve a couple of gaps in the backline. Hence I pushed hard for someone like Johnstone or Gagai to either replace Nighty or Nene on the wing, or play FB if Dufty faltered.

I was hoping we could have used the Dugan money for this purpose, unless the club has another option in mind.

I think the club could chose to build around Widdop and Hunt in the halves. Can't commit that much money to the halves and also expect to sign a fullback on big $$.

I think the club likes what they have coming through anyway. Dufty will have first shot but they like Field and there's also Mann. Hope that feeling is not misguided.

 

[MrDragon007]

You are right, where has Dugans money gone?

Packers money to James Graham.

Salary cap increase pays for Hunt?

Dugan's money....?

Clubs have to spend their salary cap, or at least most of it, so let's wonder hey

you do realise the number of players went up from 25 to 30 yeh?
So you have 5 extra players to pay?
Packer was on around the $350k mark, Graham is $550 or $600k...
Salary cap increase wouldnt just be for Hunt, the increase and Dugans money would go to cover the 5 extra players and hunt also.
Players got re-signed, upgraded, etc etc
Its not as straight forward as you make it seem, Yes the club is in a bad place, but lets not fabricate sh!t just to throw at the club.
That just gives the club reasons to show the fans are being stupid, lets stick to the facts that are already there, those are the facts the club management cant run from and use as deflections.

 

[ouryear]

you do realise the number of players went up from 25 to 30 yeh?
So you have 5 extra players to pay?
Packer was on around the $350k mark, Graham is $550 or $600k...
Salary cap increase wouldnt just be for Hunt, the increase and Dugans money would go to cover the 5 extra players and hunt also.
Players got re-signed, upgraded, etc etc
Its not as straight forward as you make it seem, Yes the club is in a bad place, but lets not fabricate sh!t just to throw at the club.
That just gives the club reasons to show the fans are being stupid, lets stick to the facts that are already there, those are the facts the club management cant run from and use as deflections.

Dragons

Ins: James Graham (Bulldogs), Ben Hunt (Broncos), Jeremy Latimore (Sharks), Darren Nicholls (Panthers)

Outs: Josh Dugan (Sharks), Russell Packer (Wests Tigers), Mose Masoe (Hull Kingston Rovers), Will Matthews (Widnes Vikings), Tyrone McCarthy (Salford Red Devils), Taane Milne (Wests Tigers), Josh McCrone (Toronto Wolfpack), Drew Hutchison (Leigh)


Money saved, estimations only, pls correct where not close to right dollars.

DUGAN 650K
PACKER 350K
MILNE 250K
MASOE 250K
HUTCHINSON 150K
McCRONE 250k
MACARTHY 200K
MATHEWS 200K
OTHER FRINGE PLAYERS TOTAL 2OOK
TOTAL SAVED $2,500,000

TOTAL SPENT
HUNT 850K (?)
GRAHAM 600K
LATIMORE 200K?
NICHOLLS 200K?
COST OF UPGRADED CONTRACTS $250k
COST OF INCREASING ROSTER FROM 25 TO 30 PLAYERS APPROX 700K (5 fringe players)
TOTAL SPENT $2,800,000

EQUALS 300K ADDITIONAL MONEY SPENT

SALARY CAP INCREASE $1 MILLION

Could be $700,000 left.

Yes it's guess work, but hopefully we do have a bit left over to chase a fast strong outside back.

It really shows the advantage that clubs with TPAs have.

My summary is clubs like us can't ever win another premiership, versus roosters, broncos and storm with all their damn TPAs.

We are 2-3 star players short of them.
Dammed to 5th to 8th finish forever.

 

[JDHD]

You are right, where has Dugans money gone?

Packers money to James Graham.

Salary cap increase pays for Hunt?

Dugan's money....?

Clubs have to spend their salary cap, or at least most of it, so let's wonder hey

Upgrades to the rest of the squad. We probably re-signed Mann, Lafai and Nightingale on Dugan's money.

 

[dragonssamy61]

Upgrades to the rest of the squad. We probably re-signed Mann, Lafai and Nightingale on Dugan's money.

JDHD
Don't forget nighty and jdb have the long servive discount so both of them would be less on salary cap

 

[Carlton]

JDHD
Don't forget nighty and jdb have the long servive discount so both of them would be less on salary cap

I would think we have approximately $1million left of cap space and two? spots to fill. There is talk of Thommo and MacDonald moving this would provide another $700K plus add two more positions to fill.

Why would we even think of getting rid of Thommo and MacDonald unless we are looking at filling at least two maybe three of those spots with established players?

 

[dragonssamy61]

I would think we have approximately $1million left of cap space and two? spots to fill. There is talk of Thommo and MacDonald moving this would provide another $700K plus add two more positions to fill.

Why would we even think of getting rid of Thommo and MacDonald unless we are looking at filling at least two maybe three of those spots with established players?

Carlton
You would hope so.
But tommo situation will all depend on cronk.
Cronk to Roosters.
Then pearce want out can not blame him.
I heard manly want him to replace green. I know knights also made a offer.
I would think that manly would then have to let someone go.
This would affect tommo going to them.
Macdonald going seems to have gone quite to.
But I think a few of the player movements will be on hold while world cup is on.
Mate the roosters have offered crichton as well.
Usually what the rooster want they get.
But interesting times ahead.
I know all the players in world cup at dragons will not come back to training untill after cristmas.

 

[watatank]

Upgrades to the rest of the squad. We probably re-signed Mann, Lafai and Nightingale on Dugan's money.

This. Lafai likely got an upgrade, given his form at the time and he was in much more demand than when he was when he left the Bulldogs. Mann and Nightingale more or less the same.

Trying to figure out how much salary cap space we have is always a lot of guesswork but I think people are underestimating the effect contract extensions/upgrades have and overestimating what previous younger/fringe players are being paid.

We upgraded Vaughan after about a month. We also moved quickly to ensure Frizell stayed put as well. De Belin had a big start to the season and was extended too. Widdop was extended and likely got an upgrade. Aitken also extended and he was previously on a rookie contract. Host also extended although we signed him early and I doubt he got a huge upgrade.

Don't really know how much cap space we have, I'll leave that up to others to try and figure out (and others who actually know).

 

[Carlton]

Carlton
You would hope so.
But tommo situation will all depend on cronk.
Cronk to Roosters.
Then pearce want out can not blame him.
I heard manly want him to replace green. I know knights also made a offer.
I would think that manly would then have to let someone go.
This would affect tommo going to them.
Macdonald going seems to have gone quite to.
But I think a few of the player movements will be on hold while world cup is on.
Mate the roosters have offered crichton as well.
Usually what the rooster want they get.
But interesting times ahead.
I know all the players in world cup at dragons will not come back to training untill after cristmas.

You're spot on with the unknown effect potential movements will have. I'm hoping there was a plan with contingencies in there. Also nothing will be clear until after November when players can be approached by the clubs directly.

 

[Crush]

Carlton
You would hope so.
But tommo situation will all depend on cronk.
Cronk to Roosters.
Then pearce want out can not blame him.
I heard manly want him to replace green. I know knights also made a offer.
I would think that manly would then have to let someone go.
This would affect tommo going to them.
Macdonald going seems to have gone quite to.
But I think a few of the player movements will be on hold while world cup is on.
Mate the roosters have offered crichton as well.
Usually what the rooster want they get.
But interesting times ahead.
I know all the players in world cup at dragons will not come back to training untill after cristmas.

So story in paper said today that Robinson will try to persuade Pearce to stay to play dummy half with Friend. Whether or not that happens is besides the point but how can roosters afford to keep teddy, keary, friend, pearce in their spine whilst adding Cronk. FFS! It is getting ridiculous!
Any other club has to offload stars to pick up stars. The Roosters just keep them all!
Makes me angry.

 

[watatank]

I would think we have approximately $1million left of cap space and two? spots to fill. There is talk of Thommo and MacDonald moving this would provide another $700K plus add two more positions to fill.

Why would we even think of getting rid of Thommo and MacDonald unless we are looking at filling at least two maybe three of those spots with established players?

I would say it's probably because we don't actually have $1M cap space and we need those players to create space.

 

[Smurf]

So story in paper said today that Robinson will try to persuade Pearce to stay to play dummy half with Friend. Whether or not that happens is besides the point but how can roosters afford to keep teddy, keary, friend, pearce in their spine whilst adding Cronk. FFS! It is getting ridiculous!
Any other club has to offload stars to pick up stars. The Roosters just keep them all!
Makes me angry.

Can you imagine
The Rorters could potentially have both state of origin half backs in Cronk and Pearce !
Work that one out.

 

[Carlton]

I would say it's probably because we don't actually have $1M cap space and we need those players to create space.

That could be the case which would lead to the question why isn't there that amount available still?

Unless they have ridiculously fronted ended contracts it doesn't make sense. What seems more likely is that there is cap space still available and they are trying to free up even more because they have identified an "aspirational" signing on top of what was already planned.

 

[watatank]

That could be the case which would lead to the question why isn't there that amount available still?

Unless they have ridiculously fronted ended contracts it doesn't make sense. What seems more likely is that there is cap space still available and they are trying to free up even more because they have identified an "aspirational" signing on top of what was already planned.

As I said, we have actually upgraded a lot of players and spent all this time signing up the core and securing the younger player. I'm not saying there's no room to make a move just don't know if we are making multiple moves or if it is our intent to do so.

We have already made two of our biggest external recruitment moves (Hunt and Graham) and it's already the off season. Are we really going to be making two more big signings? One more could be plausible, not sure about two. Who are we going to sign? Cronk isn't coming here. We aren't linked to Pearce. Anyway we'll see what happens.

 

[Frank Facer]

I am a Dufty fan and I am hoping that he can have a big season for us next year.

Lomax was playing some fullback in the 20's last year too. He looks like the best young prospect we have had in a very long time and better than Bird at the same age. I like the idea of us starting the season with Lomax at centre. After giving it some thought, I am wondering if Lomax could be our best option at fullback in the next few years?


I would also be interested to see how Matherson Johns would go on the wing in first grade next year?

 

[Carlton]

As I said, we have actually upgraded a lot of players and spent all this time signing up the core and securing the younger player. I'm not saying there's no room to make a move just don't know if we are making multiple moves or if it is our intent to do so.

We have already made two of our biggest external recruitment moves (Hunt and Graham) and it's already the off season. Are we really going to be making two more big signings? One more could be plausible, not sure about two. Who are we going to sign? Cronk isn't coming here. We aren't linked to Pearce. Anyway we'll see what happens.

I get where you're coming from but, even with upgrades and signing juniors (which don't form part of the cap), it still doesn't add up for me.

Hunt and Graham have, from what I can gather, used up about $1.5 million of cap. The loss of Dugan and Packer was about $1.2-$1.3 million so that's about $200K down. JDB and Nighty are eligible for the long term player exemption, I think effect on cap is $300K, that means after these two things we are about square.

The cap has increased by $1million.

We have let go 15 players (excluding Dugan and Packer) at $150K each (which is conservative probably should be more than this) that's $2.25 million. As well as Graham and Hunt we have signed Nicholls and Latimore about $300 to $400K. Difference from this being approx. $1.8million.

We have resigned 10 players of which I would say 4 have not been upgraded (just resigned and/or extended), 1 would be minimal lets say $100K (Lawrie), 4 may have been for $200K, 2 may have been for $300K (Widdop and De Belin). That's $1.5 million and even if I'm $300K out that still leaves overall $1 million of cap left (from the increase) before we look at Thommo and Nene going.

 

[watatank]

I get where you're coming from but, even with upgrades and signing juniors (which don't form part of the cap), it still doesn't add up for me.

Hunt and Graham have, from what I can gather, used up about $1.5 million of cap. The loss of Dugan and Packer was about $1.2-$1.3 million so that's about $200K down. JDB and Nighty are eligible for the long term player exemption, I think effect on cap is $300K, that means after these two things we are about square.

The cap has increased by $1million.

We have let go 15 players (excluding Dugan and Packer) at $150K each (which is conservative probably should be more than this) that's $2.25 million. As well as Graham and Hunt we have signed Nicholls and Latimore about $300 to $400K. Difference from this being approx. $1.8million.

We have resigned 10 players of which I would say 4 have not been upgraded (just resigned and/or extended), 1 would be minimal lets say $100K (Lawrie), 4 may have been for $200K, 2 may have been for $300K (Widdop and De Belin). That's $1.5 million and even if I'm $300K out that still leaves overall $1 million of cap left (from the increase) before we look at Thommo and Nene going.

I think the maths is flawed here. A few points

-The long term player exception doesn't mean anything, considering you only need one player to get it and we have had someone eligible every year.
- I think Dugan + Packer would be closer to $1.0-1.1M. Just don't know how much Packer was getting after a two year absence and a jail stint.
- As for all the players we let go not named Dugan and Packer, I just don't think they have an average salary of 150K. I can think of maybe McCrone, Havili and maybe Masoe who probably made around that amount, the rest would be close to minimum wage (~ 82K) or less (or under second tier cap).
- Increase in salary cap means more players in the squad and most likely, a higher minimum wage.
- Upgrades figures seem conservative to me. I'd be interested to see who you think have not been upgraded or who came under which category. Lafai's value would have increased after he was a Bulldogs reject. Vaughan got extended quickly, would imagine a decent upgrade would also be involved after he proved to be a forward leader. I think while Aitken is not a popular player on the forums I would imagine there's a decent upgrade involved after playing 50+ games.

I'll let you do the math but I guess what I am saying is there may not be as much cap space as we might think.

My point about signing juniors is more about the club's intent to use them, not about cap space. It seems that we have made been more committed to bringing juniors through than the past few years.

 

[BennyV]

I get where you're coming from but, even with upgrades and signing juniors (which don't form part of the cap), it still doesn't add up for me.

Hunt and Graham have, from what I can gather, used up about $1.5 million of cap. The loss of Dugan and Packer was about $1.2-$1.3 million so that's about $200K down. JDB and Nighty are eligible for the long term player exemption, I think effect on cap is $300K, that means after these two things we are about square.

The cap has increased by $1million.

We have let go 15 players (excluding Dugan and Packer) at $150K each (which is conservative probably should be more than this) that's $2.25 million. As well as Graham and Hunt we have signed Nicholls and Latimore about $300 to $400K. Difference from this being approx. $1.8million.

We have resigned 10 players of which I would say 4 have not been upgraded (just resigned and/or extended), 1 would be minimal lets say $100K (Lawrie), 4 may have been for $200K, 2 may have been for $300K (Widdop and De Belin). That's $1.5 million and even if I'm $300K out that still leaves overall $1 million of cap left (from the increase) before we look at Thommo and Nene going.

No way was Dugan+Packer on $1.3m. And all those $150k players we let go were replaced under the cap but players on roughly the same wage, and then some, because you have a minimum squad size that must be filled, which increased to 30 this year.

Also, we dont gain anything extra from the long-term player allowance because it was in effect this year too, no net gain.