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Game of Thrones VIII

Tommy Smith

Referee
Messages
21,344
I like how Jamie pushing Bran out of the window right at the beginning foreshadowed exactly the same thing happening to his 7-season-long character development in this episode.
Jamie is my favourite character and I feel as though what they did to him this season was a violation of my basic human rights.

And Apey mentioned Bronn... FFS don't even get me started on that clusterf**k. Imagine being the actor and reading that shit as the end of your 7-year character?
 

nick87

Coach
Messages
12,294
Predictions for next week? I’m guessing Jon kills Danerys after she kills one of - if not both - the Stark sisters and then disappears into a Dexter style ending living in a cabin in the woods on his own in the North. Gendry ends up as a placeholder on the throne, with the series ending as it started with a Baratheon in charge. Gendry will be acknowledged as a placeholder whilst the powers that be acknowledge that the way leaders are chosen in Westeros has to change.

And it’ll be deeply disappointing.

I dont think Dany is going to get the chance to kill the Starks, i think Jon is going to kill before she gets that chance, with help from Tyrion and Davos... the houses will rally around Jon but he'll decline and retreat to the real north to live a quiet life with Ghost and Tormund.

Tyrion or Sansa will be placed on the throne or in lieu of Jon leaving them high and dry, Tyrion creates a democracy
 

Timbo

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
20,272
Rushed ending is rushed.

What's infuriating is this plot line - Danerys loses Jorah, Missandei, Varys and co, everyone who's kept her insane tendencies in check and goes mad leading to the massacre at Kings Landing - would have worked perfectly if they had actually given it time to build and make sense.

Apparently HBO wanted these final two seasons to run ten episodes each. But Benihoff and Weiss said, no, we don't need that many episodes to finish the story. These two arseholes clearly had their eye on the Star Wars gig they're moving on to and rushed this out the door. They've taken what was shaping up to be the greatest pop-culture achievement in history and turned it in to this complete nonsensical mess.
 

Shaun Hewitt

First Grade
Messages
6,354
Anyone else think it was very uncharacteristic of Tyrion to dob Varyss in

For what? We saw them discussing the last episode and while Tyrion was more loyal to Dany than Varyss was, he was hardly defending her at all...

Dobs Varyss in to get favor with Dany...
...then becomes next in line for the Varyss treatment for releasing Jamie....

Why Tyrion, why?
 

Springs09

Juniors
Messages
1,903
To be fair she is like thirteen at the start of the books, so her acting like a spoiled teenage for most of the story isn't all that odd when she is a spoiler teenager.

Yeah that's partly what I meant. In the books it's obnoxious because why are we following around a crazy bratty teenager but in the show it's even more so because she's supposed to be older yet still has the same mentality.

Also I'm sure I remember a scene in that magic house or whatever it was in season 2 where she say the Red Keep destroyed and covered in ash. However I thought a better ending would have been Daenerys do this before the Others attacked so they attacked a broken kingdom with little left to defend it, instead of being little more than a sideplot.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
A lot of the people who pardoned the last 2 shitshow episodes hate this.
Meanwhile I quite liked it. The strength of the plot and themes is enough to outweigh some of the odd moments and logic leaps.
My only issue with it is that the payoff relies so heavily on the clumsy, lazy set-up of the last 2 episodes/seasons.

The Mad Queen Danaerys, or more accurately Dany the Tyrant

Dany is (probably) not (yet) mad. She didn't 'go insane'. She is a traumatised child who became a ruler, a teenage queen with WMDs who has had her capacity for mercy repeatedly stripped away at every turn. Having lost everything she loves, she came to believe that only a show of supreme force would be enough to hold her rule.

Dany has always walked a fine line between righteousness and ruthlessness. The question was always there. Did she help the common people for power, or did she gain power to help the common people? She's always believed rule of Westeros was hers by divine right, before she ever set foot there.
Every good act she has done has had 2 sidenotes. 1. It has gained her more power. and 2. it came at great emotional cost.

She was abused by her brother.
Her first followers and dragons were gained as a result of being sold to the Dothraki.
In Qarth, she gained wealth and ships, but learned lies and betrayal. Locked her betrayers in a stone vault, and burned her enemies alive.
In Astapor she 'frees' the Unsullied, gaining them into her service. She double crosses their masters and burns them alive, and sacks the city.
In Mireen she frees the slaves, gains a throne and some powerful advisors, hangs every single nobleman in the city as a warning. She tries to do good but is met with scorn, resistance and murder. She is betrayed by Jorah and Selmy is murdered.
In The North she commits to saving the world, gains half a kingdom and the support of Jon Snow, loses half her army, a dragon, and her best friend.
At Kings Landing, she negotiates in good faith on the word of her advisors, and loses another Dragon and her only remaining friend.
And then her 3 closest advisors, Jon, Tyrion, and Varys all betray her with whispers of Jon's claim to the throne. Jon doesn't truly love her, Tyrion frees Jaime, Varys commits open treason.

Everyone she loved is dead. Everyone loyal to her whispers and undermines her. The high lords don't trust her and the common people don't love her.
She is isolated and broken, holding an army and a weapon of mass destruction.
Only sheer force will hold her rule now, she has given up on love and forgotten what she stood for in Mireen.

Dany sacks King's Landing and becomes just another tyrant. After facing the apocalypse and saving the world, she is still sucked into fighting over a chair, at massive cost to the realm.

The system is broken.

This will be the book's ending. So where did the show go wrong

Going from mildly concerning to full blown tyrant in 2 episodes forces the audience to do yet another giant leap of faith.
There was no final trigger that pushed her over the edge, she just seemed to change her mind after the surrender. It was hard to believe.

Each of the pieces was in place, as detailed above. But the clumsy direction of the writers doesn't do the story justice. Large pieces were forced into place without care for consequences and small pieces were forgotten. Her major emotional losses were through contrived, dumb situations (the wight kidnap plot, Euron shooting down Rhaegal) and the audience never saw until the very end how hard each of them shook her. She seemed to just move on from each without flinching, until the last 2 episodes.

The rest of the world has been written out due to time constraints. Sansa's distrust is meant to represent every lord in the kingdom. We never really see what the commoners think of her.

The story is good but the details aren't given the attention required to truly sell it. The previous 2 episodes, and most of season 7, failed to give the payoff the foundations it needed.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
Other major characters...

Jon not much to say. Followed his queen, turned out bad. I still think there will be no throne to rule. Jon will probably kill Dany.

Arya Presumably they are putting her in KL for a reason. Idk

Jaime I had no issue with this actually. Jaime proved his honour by holding his oaths to Brienne and going north. But his story was always about Cersei in the end. She didn't die at his hands, but she did die in his hands. Close enough.

Tyrion Good moments with Jaime and Dany. Guessing he will try to help Jon take down Dany and die in the process. The last Lannister.

Bran seems like he shoulda seen this whole thing coming ay. Anyway he has a nice wheelchair

Sansa "told ya so"
 

nick87

Coach
Messages
12,294
100% agree with the above
This is the right end point and imo exactly where the books are going... and the bits to pull it all together were there but it was just too hasty, too clumsy and ultimately poorly executed.

But the mad queen and total and complete sacking of Kings Landing is the right and very satisfying end point
 

Mr Angry

Not a Referee
Messages
51,804
The dragon flying over KL was for seen ages ago, there is no surprise.

Jamie and Cersei under rubble not fire, until I see a body....
 

Game_Breaker

Coach
Messages
13,675
Episode 3 at least laid the ground work for the episode. In had its problems but they set the battle up with good tension at least
Arya killing the NK was a good choice too

In this episode the deterioration of Dany happened way to fast. I’m on board with her going bat shit crazy Stalin style, but that needed a whole season to play out not 2 episodes
 

PJ

First Grade
Messages
5,680
Maybe the general disdain for the way the series is ending will spur GRRM to finish the f$%king books so we can have a proper, well fleshed out conclusion.
 

BennyV

Referee
Messages
22,655
I would have liked to have seen more of a trigger. Something small that could have given so much more meaning to her madness. Maybe if she saw Jamie walking through the city and realised Tyrion had betrayed her. Maybe she she’s Jon with his army at his back to get the final message that they love him more than her. Something like that could have given a lot more power to her snapping.
 

Apey

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
27,121
I would have liked to have seen more of a trigger. Something small that could have given so much more meaning to her madness. Maybe if she saw Jamie walking through the city and realised Tyrion had betrayed her. Maybe she she’s Jon with his army at his back to get the final message that they love him more than her. Something like that could have given a lot more power to her snapping.
Or a scorpion she missed firing at Drogon. Actually my favourite suggestion was Missandei being executed publicly and the crowds booing and throwing shit at her like Ned.

~~


I agree with this sentiment. Jon has been shafted this season because Arya is cool and badass.

Edit: another suggestion was Davos. Even better since he had ties to KL. 'what is one bastards boy life against a kingdom' 'everything'.
 
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adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
I would have liked to have seen more of a trigger. Something small that could have given so much more meaning to her madness. Maybe if she saw Jamie walking through the city and realised Tyrion had betrayed her. Maybe she she’s Jon with his army at his back to get the final message that they love him more than her. Something like that could have given a lot more power to her snapping.

Jaime rings the bell.
She sees Jaime in the tower. Realises she has been betrayed one. last. f**king. time.
Tyrion was the person who begged her for mercy on the city. Tyrion was the person who betrayed her freeing Jaime.
Snap.


Of course, that would make it somewhat unbelievable for Jaime to reach Cersei after that but you know, plot armour.
 
Messages
14,142
I think Daenerys turn was set up in episode 4. When they were all celebrating the victory over the Army of the Dead, not a single person thanked or congratulated Daenerys - not even Jon. It showed when you saw her looking around the banquet hall how isolated she was.

She tried to reach out to Sansa to at least be cordial, but Sansa was way too parochial "but what about the North?" was her constant refrain. No gratitude as to what Daenerys had given in fighting the Army of the Dead, which quite frankly was way more than what Sansa did. In fact Sansa never was willing to see her as anything but a rival.

Furthermore, she broke her solemn oath to Jon to keep his secret about his lineage. As such it turned out exactly like Daenerys feared. So in a lot of respects, it just shows that Sansa has become a lot more like Cersei than she would want to admit.

As to Arya, people seem to forget she was planning on going to her death to kill Cersei. It was only the Hound telling her look at what a life of vengeance that saw him convince her to live, and by trying to help the innocent, has probably given her a new purpose in life. Hence for her character's development, I think it was quite well done as it enables her to look at things differently and not as "yet another death to cross off her list".
 

greenBV4

Bench
Messages
2,508
Dany is (probably) not (yet) mad. She didn't 'go insane'. She is a traumatised child who became a ruler, a teenage queen with WMDs who has had her capacity for mercy repeatedly stripped away at every turn. Having lost everything she loves, she came to believe that only a show of supreme force would be enough to hold her rule.

Dany has always walked a fine line between righteousness and ruthlessness. The question was always there. Did she help the common people for power, or did she gain power to help the common people? She's always believed rule of Westeros was hers by divine right, before she ever set foot there.
Every good act she has done has had 2 sidenotes. 1. It has gained her more power. and 2. it came at great emotional cost.

She was abused by her brother.
Her first followers and dragons were gained as a result of being sold to the Dothraki.
In Qarth, she gained wealth and ships, but learned lies and betrayal. Locked her betrayers in a stone vault, and burned her enemies alive.
In Astapor she 'frees' the Unsullied, gaining them into her service. She double crosses their masters and burns them alive, and sacks the city.
In Mireen she frees the slaves, gains a throne and some powerful advisors, hangs every single nobleman in the city as a warning. She tries to do good but is met with scorn, resistance and murder. She is betrayed by Jorah and Selmy is murdered.
In The North she commits to saving the world, gains half a kingdom and the support of Jon Snow, loses half her army, a dragon, and her best friend.
At Kings Landing, she negotiates in good faith on the word of her advisors, and loses another Dragon and her only remaining friend.
And then her 3 closest advisors, Jon, Tyrion, and Varys all betray her with whispers of Jon's claim to the throne. Jon doesn't truly love her, Tyrion frees Jaime, Varys commits open treason.

Everyone she loved is dead. Everyone loyal to her whispers and undermines her. The high lords don't trust her and the common people don't love her.
She is isolated and broken, holding an army and a weapon of mass destruction.
Only sheer force will hold her rule now, she has given up on love and forgotten what she stood for in Mireen.

Dany sacks King's Landing and becomes just another tyrant. After facing the apocalypse and saving the world, she is still sucked into fighting over a chair, at massive cost to the realm.

The system is broken.

This!
Nothing wrong with Dany going "mad" It makes sense not just from the last few episodes, but from key events throughout her whole story. And yeah that was that vision in the house of kings landing in ruins covered in ash, and that shot of the dragons shadow

What makes it feel so "wrong" is the same thing that has made everything feel so wrong this season. Its rushed..

I don't think there has been bad writing, its just that everything has been so compressed, especially when compared to the slower paced early seasons. The night kings death made sense, it just felt weird because it was all done in 1 episode. And its the exact same with Dany going "mad"

Realistically this whole seasons should of been focused on defeating the night king and drawing that out a bit more. Then have season 9 dedicated to this whole Kings landing plot.

We could of had episodes focused on the new prince in Dorne. Show the situation in some of the other regions and castles, and who has control over those. Show Yara retake the Iron Islands. Show Sansa/Jon deal with Lord Glover for betraying them again. Have an actual battle at last hearth. Give us an episode on whats happening now in Meereen. More Bran stuff and the NKs motives/origins. Have Dany travel the kingdoms trying to win more allies, just to have them turn her down (fuelling her "madness"). Have Jon actually create a bond with Rhaegal, "stealing" him from Dany. Have the Golden company actually do something, maybe retake a castle (Storm's End from Gendry or maybe have Bron get Highgarden of Tyrion just to have it besieged by Cersei and the GC)

These are all just based of what was set up from the last season alone, but then ignored because of the condensed nature of this season...
 
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