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The Game Future NRL Stadiums part II

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,839
American sporting teams have always been a more corporate entity than Australian clubs. CEOs would just buy a franchise and bring it to their town and when it became financial liability they’d sell it off to the next chump, that’s why the raiders have been a travelling circus for the last 30 years as well as the Baltimore/Cleveland debacle of the nineties
The Raiders have been effectively owned and operated by the same few families since the early 70s, but mainly run by the Davis's (first Al now his son Mark), and they've only ever relocated because it was in the businesses best interest. In other words the Raiders have not gone through a steady flow of owners who buy the club, relocate them, go broke, then sell them onto the next "chump", and in fact their are comparatively few clubs in American sport where that has been the case.

How did the Baltimore/Cleveland "debacle" end out. . . With two (relatively) successful businesses instead of one failing one.
There’s a hell a lot of raiders fans that said they won’t support the team after the Las Vegas move and there’s other examples, imagine the uproar if somebody bought the Yankees and moved them to la or patriots to Portland
Assuming that the Las Vegas move goes to plan (who knows it might turn out to have been a terrible idea), they'll replace every fan that they lose and more, add bunch more paying customers, and be in a much better position financially and with much better stadium.

Also nobody in their right mind would try to relocate the extremely successful businesses like the Yankees or Patriots, nor will their owners ever put them up for sale while they are such successful businesses. The only teams that get relocated (or messed with in any way) are the ones that are struggling or failing in some significant way.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,839
Of course it would, being the official team for the region from the junior level up with NRL backing would go a long way. Souths are a good example, they went cap in hand years and years ago to the NSWRL and got given a bunch of Easts' junior areas- those areas are now, generally, died-in-the-wool Souths supporting areas.
Have you been down to a local juniors club recently?

Next time you do count the NRL logos, you'll find them incredibly mixed and more often than not there won't really be any one team that is more popular than the others.

As I said before, in the past I've been around juniors clubs quite a bit, and I've seen absolutely zero evidence that playing for a team that feeds into a particular club's system makes the participates anymore likely to support that club, and that most of the time the participates already have their mind made up on their favorite NRL club long before they decide to try actually playing the sport.
10 years isn't much time to build a huge fanbase, but it is enough time to waste an enormous amount of money. That money needs to be invested with the understanding that the rug won't be pulled out from under the organisation in the future- it doesn't take much, just an official direction and stance from the NRL on the area and its future.

The NRL can prevent any wasting of money in the area and stop the rot there by just letting everybody know what's happening.
What do you think is going to happen?
Are the Bears going to show back up and all the fans you've converted going to just throw it in and become Bears fans, then after that point it'll become impossible to convert people in "Bears territory" into Sea Eagles fans, because I mean that's simply not how fandom works.

People like what they like, and those that could be inclined to support the Sea Eagles will still be inclined to support the Sea Eagles no matter whether the Bears, or anybody else, tries to make them change their mind. All you've got to do is give them a push to get them actually engaging with the club.
So what's stopping the NRL from making it official then? That's what will make all the difference and that's what I'm advocating for. Remove the murkiness and offer clear direction and the area will sort itself out.
They don't need to make it official, the Bears already did that when they gave up on the CC bid...

What the Bears are doing should have little to no effect on what the Sea Eagles are doing anyway, and you bringing them up as a road block is just looking more and more like they are a convenient excuse.
It could have worked, bring the areas back under the Sea Eagles umbrella now and let's see what happens with time. It can't be any worse than what's happening there now.
If the club just announces that they represent these new areas, then makes no significant efforts to make any changes that actually make the club attractive to those markets then what's the point.

At that point it'd effectively just be lip service.
 

Shire_seaeagle

Juniors
Messages
33
The only difference between the American sporting culture and the Australian one is that the Americans and Canadians have accepted the fact that pro-sport is a business, while us backwards Aussies still hold onto ludicrously romanticised ideas of what pro-sport is.

In this regard we are the RU holding onto amateurism until the 1990s compared to the Americans being everybody else that got over the reality of sport going professional about a century earlier...

Americans don't really do mergers because they don't really work the way people want them to, and every major relocation in Australian sport has been a success to varying degrees.
In fact it could be said that a good part of the reason that Manly are in the predicament that they are in currently is because the Swans have been so successful in eating into their market.

Besides absolutely nobody was talking about relocating or merging the Sea Eagles, and what is your excuse for the Nets, Pelicans, Hornets, and [insert other similar examples here] success, why haven't all their fans taken their balls and gone home?

Mate 100% agree with your first paragraph and do consider myself the backward aussie - I beleive everyone that supports a team does start from a romantic obsession whether that be from following family team, favourite player, underdig team or glory hunters . IMO the day nrl goes as corporate as NBA or NFL it will be sad ( most ikely will)- nothing against those Anerican sports as I enjoy watching them too . Its the same reason alot of American follow college sport instead - not as corporate and its the cities team - cant really relocate a college team for not averaging a certain amount of crowd

About you last paragraph thats my bad as you are right you didn't mention Manly merging/ relocating etc it was another poster - so should used that in another reply ( with posts in his thread coming thick and fast last few days alot of the discussions are similar)
 

Shire_seaeagle

Juniors
Messages
33
If King Emperor Lord VLandy’s does get his 3 or 4 New Suburban stadiums and Brooky is one of them, that would be an ideal time for Manly to take their home games to the CC. Take maybe 8 games there and see what the reception is like. If it proves to be successful, then maybe a slight name change (Manly Central Coast) and four home games at The CC each year, could work out.

I think all of the posters discussing the Manly issue ( including Manly fans ) agree that Manly need to engage both the central coast and north Sydney areas but have a few differences in the how and final name. One important aspect I bekeive is that the NRL need to be in discussions with Manly and who knows maybe they are and just being kept private. ( one would like to think the NRL is in discussions with all clubs about growth etc and how it could assist)
One also forgets that NorthSydney are currently the roosters feeder club - maybe Politis has a deal with the NRL and North Sydney that not only the juniors go to the roosters but they also get to develop on their territory ( any info from a roosters fan we oukd be interesting)as it currently stands the NRL definatly isn't encouraging Manly to take over the old Nth Sydney area.
 

reanimate

Bench
Messages
3,690
Have you been down to a local juniors club recently?

Next time you do count the NRL logos, you'll find them incredibly mixed and more often than not there won't really be any one team that is more popular than the others.

As I said before, in the past I've been around juniors clubs quite a bit, and I've seen absolutely zero evidence that playing for a team that feeds into a particular club's system makes the participates anymore likely to support that club, and that most of the time the participates already have their mind made up on their favorite NRL club long before they decide to try actually playing the sport.
Your anecdotal evidence is just that- anecdotal. I've spent plenty of time around the local junior systems of both Rugby League and Union on the Northern Beaches, both as a player and later helping out with coaching. It obviously differs by year and the people you get coming through, but around here the fans putting their kids through junior League are generally 80% and upwards Sea Eagles fans (as are the Union fans who are also League fans). The remaining 10-20% are families who have moved into the area who support a mix of other teams (mainly Roosters and Parra, interestingly, with a few Souths fans, as there always are). Their kids went on to be a mix of Sea Eagles supporters and supporters of other teams, sometimes supporting both in some capacity. Spending all their time in the Sea Eagles system, having all their friends be Sea Eagles fans and getting to meet Sea Eagles players etc ends up having an effect.

Things might be different in Canberra, if that's where you are, as you have a greater transient population than we do here. I'd expect to see more fans of other NRL clubs around your junior systems there.
What do you think is going to happen?
Are the Bears going to show back up and all the fans you've converted going to just throw it in and become Bears fans, then after that point it'll become impossible to convert people in "Bears territory" into Sea Eagles fans, because I mean that's simply not how fandom works.

People like what they like, and those that could be inclined to support the Sea Eagles will still be inclined to support the Sea Eagles no matter whether the Bears, or anybody else, tries to make them change their mind. All you've got to do is give them a push to get them actually engaging with the club.
No, but it will end up being a colossal waste of money in the long term. Sure, the club might get a few supporters out of that time period, but the investment in terms of money spent in that time period vs the return would not be worth it. If the Sea Eagles wing it, start spending there without any clarity as to what the NRL has in mind for the area and a new Bears team is allowed back in, once that new Bears entity is set up and developing the area with the backing of the NRL, it will (relatively) quickly render any long term goals the Sea Eagles had with spending all that money in the area worthless.

You seem to think that's all gravy, but it would infuriate everyone involved if the Sea Eagles go spending millions in the area for 10 years for a few extra thousand fans, only to have the rug pulled out from under them. The goal with that long term spending would be to turn those thousands of extra fans into tens of thousands of fans and hopefully hundreds of thousands down the track given time. Getting cut off early in the process would add up to a stack of blown money and those goals not met.

That can be avoided and that money spent with clarity if the NRL makes key decisions and makes a direction and goals for the area clear.
They don't need to make it official, the Bears already did that when they gave up on the CC bid...

What the Bears are doing should have little to no effect on what the Sea Eagles are doing anyway, and you bringing them up as a road block is just looking more and more like they are a convenient excuse.
Of course the NRL should make it official, there's no reason they shouldn't. The current approach, where they've offered no direction as to the future of the area has led to what you see now. Direction from the NRL would go a long way in terms of starting to heal the damage.

If it's 100% Manly's fault that nothing's happened there, why haven't the Roosters jumped on the North Shore and made it theirs? According to you it's easy to access, there's no real roadblocks in the way and the Bears and their district mean absolutely nothing to other teams' activities. The Roosters are looking to grow their base outside their original area, as evidenced by their activity on the Central Coast. They've even signed a deal for Norths to serve as their reserves, so why aren't they declaring the North Shore theirs and developing the area as if it's theirs? Roosters players aren't going to North Shore schools, they aren't going and interacting with Norths juniors- why? According to you there's no reason why, so why isn't it happening?
 
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reanimate

Bench
Messages
3,690
Manly should rename to locationfluidly
The T-Boon Eagles- the team gets on the bus and T-Boon texts them which stadium they're playing at today.
If you don't want to follow the team because of the 'Manly' name they you probably have enough interest in rugby league to closely follow another club
The 'Manly' name/location is not a negative brand for most people on the north shore
Exactly, if you aren't already actively following a Rugby League team, the name Manly doesn't carry negative connotations on the North Shore. It's that nice beach that's good for a day or night out.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,412
The NE attendance avg at Brookvale was a tad under 10k over the three years so barley less than Manly are pulling now, and in one recent year higher. It doesnt seem the "brand" was as on the nose as some are thinking. The biggest issue I can see with it was that it didnt really appeal to NS Bears fans as they played at Brookvale, and kept the Eagles brand. Hence why I feel a new brand playing in a neutral new venue would have much greater chance of engaging the whole region than just repeating the same mistake of the past and keeping the Eagles brand and Brookvale. Gosford would support anyone they could get I suspect.

The NE brand was hated by just about everyone,It was a merger that was forced.It would be akin to Souths and Roosters merging.
The latter two still exist ,the Bears are extinct.
Of course it's not going to appeal to the old stager Bear's fans, but we have to accept there will be no NRL team domiciled in North Sydney .
The point I'm arguing is the Nth Sydney areas is a rugby league vacuum ,the code has to try and build interest there ,naturally not with old Bear's fans, but with the new generation.
I haven't got a ideal answer except to say, a Brookvale Oval that has been refurbished/rebuilt is one incentive.A game or two at NSO is another.And decent amounts of money spent pushing grassroots in schools in North Sydney another.
Changing brands IMO a no no.
Using Gosford,you are then ignoring not only Nth Sydney but Manly area.Welcome AFL.
 

gunpk

Juniors
Messages
401
Ideally there would be a place to build a bankwest style stadium in a central North Shore location but I don't think making Manly/Northern team to have games at Gosford will help the club.
If the supporters on the North Shore are not going to travel to Brookvale they are not going to go all the way to Gosford.
 

T-Boon

Coach
Messages
15,395
Yes, the Knights need to step up and take over the central coast and Gosford area - play 3 games a year there each year at Gosford Stadium. NCC Knights. The Knight is a great brand and they could meddle with the location name somewhat without causing any damage because Newcastle fans are fully committed. It would increase Newcastle crowds because it is very easy to get from Woy Woy, Gosford, Wyong to the Knights stadium. That expansion makes as much sense as Manly expanding into the North Shore of Sydney.

Gosford Stadium is a great stadium and should have 3 regular games each year. Also if McDonald Jones stadium also services the people of CC, Gosford all the way up the Hunter Valley (a million people?) then eventually more development of McDonald Jones Stadium would be on the cards. The ambition should be to get that stadium to 40k capacity, something like what the SFS will be and try to get origin games there occasionally.

We should properly debate whether North Sydney Oval could be developed into a good rectangular football ground because it is absolutely the perfect location for the North Shore team. There is enough space. The obstacle is heritage listings and green space. They could relocate that fig and the Bob Stand (was relocated there anyway) a small distance and then do what has to be done.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,412
Ideally there would be a place to build a bankwest style stadium in a central North Shore location but I don't think making Manly/Northern team to have games at Gosford will help the club.
If the supporters on the North Shore are not going to travel to Brookvale they are not going to go all the way to Gosford.

But they do travel to their investment advisers, wherever they reside.:p
 
Messages
14,521
I volunteer at my kids primary school. I always wear a team cap. PSSA and reading when they were younger. I now have parents asking me how their kids are bunnies supporters. It is that f**king simple.

And those kids that support someone else, I engage them and chat about their team.
 

parrawentyfan

Juniors
Messages
731
I think CC Bears could be a successful team. The problem is that there are about 4-5 other candidates that would be more successful.

In the meantime, CC should get half a dozen games, preferably involving Manly and Newcastle as home or away teams.

I think Manly have 2 choices. Stretch themselves north to cover the CC. Or stretch themselves west to cover the North Shore. As much as CC offers, I feel Manly would be far better placed stretching themselves west. The population is bigger, there are more corporate opportunities, the population have more in common and there are no obvious other NRL sides that make sense.

This might sound pedantic, but I really prefer continuous regions. Ie I don't like having the Roosters on the North Shore as it is separate from their base. Tigers should be in Campbelltown and give up inner west to other teams.

This would be massively controversial but I would have the Dragons out of Sydney and fully embracing Wollongong and the South Coast. Roosters to take over all the suburbs east of the M1 and Souths to take over the Dragons area. (Waiting for projectiles from Dragons fans). That way there is a clear delineation between all the teams.
 

siv

First Grade
Messages
6,563
Easts have no base. Its only Bondi beach and bunch pokies people at Bondi Junction

Most Easts people live in NRL HQ these days orex employees
 
Messages
11,719
I think CC Bears could be a successful team. The problem is that there are about 4-5 other candidates that would be more successful.

In the meantime, CC should get half a dozen games, preferably involving Manly and Newcastle as home or away teams.

I think Manly have 2 choices. Stretch themselves north to cover the CC. Or stretch themselves west to cover the North Shore. As much as CC offers, I feel Manly would be far better placed stretching themselves west. The population is bigger, there are more corporate opportunities, the population have more in common and there are no obvious other NRL sides that make sense.

This might sound pedantic, but I really prefer continuous regions. Ie I don't like having the Roosters on the North Shore as it is separate from their base. Tigers should be in Campbelltown and give up inner west to other teams.

This would be massively controversial but I would have the Dragons out of Sydney and fully embracing Wollongong and the South Coast. Roosters to take over all the suburbs east of the M1 and Souths to take over the Dragons area. (Waiting for projectiles from Dragons fans). That way there is a clear delineation between all the teams.


I don’t see why North Sydney can’t get behind Sydney. The distance between us and them is only the length of the Harbour Bridge. Couple of ex Norths fans I know have gotten on board. It’s possible.
 
Messages
11,719

horrie hastings

First Grade
Messages
7,347
A lot of us here in the inner west and the Shire too

Inner West here but grew up in Paddington half a block away from the Old Sports Ground, back then just about everyone in the area and my school supported Easts but I would say now the same area if anyone supported any team or sports it would be the Swans and Rugby Union.
 
Messages
11,719
Inner West here but grew up in Paddington half a block away from the Old Sports Ground, back then just about everyone in the area and my school supported Easts but I would say now the same area if anyone supported any team or sports it would be the Swans and Rugby Union.


The area changing from working class to white collar hasn’t helped but we shouldn’t give up. I’ve seen the white rabbit on rear windshields of BMWs and Porsches.
 

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