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NRL's growth mindset points to 18th team. And it ain't Perth.

Wb1234

Referee
Messages
22,613
In hindsight, the Cowboys probably should have been brought in later. Crushers to replace the Gold Coast or brought in straight away, Warriors obviously in with Perth dependent on whether the Crushers replaced Gold Coast.

St George to take over Illawarra, Melbourne, Adelaide and North QLD brought in over 10 or so years. That would have got 20 sides with a lot less pain than what the game has endured.

If a few sides died during that time which probably would have happened then you could have brought in some Kiwi or QLD sides to replace them.

Anyway what has happened has happened. Unfortunately, we will eventually get there probably 40-50 years later.
I honestly believe if Murdoch didn’t get involved all those clubs would’ve survived and we would still have had 20 teams all along

the peace deal set rugby league back 30 years it’s probably now the game is set again to grow

dolphins are a far better choice than the crushers
 

Colk

First Grade
Messages
6,404
I honestly believe if Murdoch didn’t get involved all those clubs would’ve survived and we would still have had 20 teams all along

the peace deal set rugby league back 30 years it’s probably now the game is set again to grow

dolphins are a far better choice than the crushers

Considering what happened I’d like to think so. They will be given much greater opportunity than the Crushers were afforded
 

Wb1234

Referee
Messages
22,613
Considering what happened I’d like to think so. They will be given much greater opportunity than the Crushers were afforded
Honestly I would’ve gone easts tigers and dolphins in the one go

both are excellent bids
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,800
Talking of learning from the past, we really haven't it would seem. Clubs are still on time limited licenses so in theory when the license period expires they could walk away from the NRL. Players are still contracted to clubs so they can walk with the clubs. SOO is owned by NSWRL and QRL so if those bodies move away nothing NRL can do.

Yes clubs are well funded these days with grants around the $15mill and shouldn't be in any real financial strife. BUT if a streaming service came along and decided to try SL2 would they say no if they were offered $30mill a year, or $50mill a year? A ten club comp with a grant of $50mill, cap of $35mill. Hmmm that would be enticing!
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
11,975
Honestly I would’ve gone easts tigers and dolphins in the one go

both are excellent bids
Easts firehawks was a joke... the tigers club as its own entity playing out of suncorp yes. But the mopes running that firehawks bid had tickets on themselves so hard, they couldn't even answer straight forward questions from journos on their "official bid conference" all they come with was copying the L.A lakers app fan service idea, then just kept repeating it... it was one of the most cringeworthy conferences ive ever watched... to say they had a great bid is being disingenuous to both jets and dolphins... they were better off joining with the jets, but that probably would have failed spectacularly with those fools on the bid committee...
"seriously you just don't get it guys, we know what we are doing" one of them actually said this.. it think it was Shane richos brother
 

Reflector

Juniors
Messages
2,298
Piggins gives news ltd and the super league clubs a massive spray and says south’s should never have been kicked out based on the criteria

Coleman provides a great summary of before and during the war

Steve mascord just did a book on the years after 97 but I’m kinda over it and didn’t buy it

Coleman’s book is a great read on the topic and he’s a news ltd journo but liked the arl so wasn’t too biased either way

he details why brisbane got ticked off by the arl and it was their idea to form a super league and they took the idea to Rupert not the other way around

both Newcastle and st George had decided to go to super league and only last minute stayed loyal. Had they gone it was pretty much curtains for the arl
According to Piggins (although he provides figures to back the claims up):

- He was aware of a long-term plan to merge Souths and the Roosters as far back as the early 90's. He and Nick Politis were invited for dinner at Kerry Packers' Vaucluse house in '94 with the intention to discuss a merger. Piggins shot it down right off the bat. After dinner Politis left, Piggins hopped in a cab with Packer who agreed to giving Souths $500k to continue staying afloat.

- Superleague and the post- SL rationalisation process just sped up what the NSWRL/ ARL had intended to do anyway: axe existing clubs or let them die a natural death. They'd already demonstrated this through cutting Newtown and Wests in '83, and Piggins had heard murmurs about Souths living on borrowed time as well.

- Had Peter Moore not taken Canterbury to SL, it never would've got off the ground. The Bulldogs were a long established, successful Sydney club with 60 years of history. Without them, SL was just a bunch of shelf companies and clubs with no more than 15 years history in the game and wouldn't have been taken seriously.

- The only difference between many of the "insolvent" former ARL clubs and the former SL clubs that "passed" the 14-team criteria was that the former SL clubs received several large cash injections from News Limited to stay afloat. It had virtually nothing to do with certain clubs being better run or more "strategic" to the long-term future of the game than others

- Balmain members were informed on the July 27, 1999 meeting that if they voted for Balmain to stand-alone (instead of electing a merger with Wests) they would fail the criteria. Ultimately, Balmain would have still made the cut if they elected to continue as a standalone club (I'm not confident they would've survived much longer but without merging/ relocating, regardless)

- There was an error in the final criteria that saw Penrith make the cut ranked #14 while Souths were ranked #15. In fact, their rankings were reversed. Piggins offered David Moffett (I think it was) to get a cab out to Penrith Leagues to inform Roger Cowan (then Panthers CEO) of the mistake but Moffett declined.
 
Messages
12,659
In hindsight, the Cowboys probably should have been brought in later. Crushers to replace the Gold Coast or brought in straight away, Warriors obviously in with Perth dependent on whether the Crushers replaced Gold Coast.

St George to take over Illawarra, Melbourne, Adelaide and North QLD brought in over 10 or so years. That would have got 20 sides with a lot less pain than what the game has endured.

If a few sides died during that time which probably would have happened then you could have brought in some Kiwi or QLD sides to replace them.

Anyway what has happened has happened. Unfortunately, we will eventually get there probably 40-50 years later.
40 or 45 years translates to three generations in these markets not having a team while our main competitor has invested heavily on generating new fans. We've allowed AwFuL to form a decent base in Brisbane and it will decrease the amount of people who blindly follow our game in this market over the next 40 years. All of this damage has been caused by insular saboteurs from Sydney who cannot see past their own interest.
 
Messages
12,659
Following this competition since the 80s

been to probably 1k games live

was at the origin game in 95 when a team Wayne bennett refused to coach because they had no chance won the series

what were you doing in the 80s? Following the brl ?

that’s why your posts are so tone deaf you don’t comprehend this competition

you just don’t get the famous club rivalries and the history
NSWRL club rivalries don't translate into a national audience. No one outside of Sydney gives a f**k about Parramatta vs Penrith or Sydney vs South Sydney. Keeping all of these small clubs alive for sake of preserving their small rivalries, which draw small crowds when they're not played on a public holiday, has prevented the game back from generating a footprint across Australia.
 

Reflector

Juniors
Messages
2,298
Following this competition since the 80s

been to probably 1k games live

was at the origin game in 95 when a team Wayne bennett refused to coach because they had no chance won the series

what were you doing in the 80s? Following the brl ?

that’s why your posts are so tone deaf you don’t comprehend this competition

you just don’t get the famous club rivalries and the history
But...but...State Of Origin every week!

When two tribes go to war.....
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
11,975
NSWRL club rivalries don't translate into a national audience. No one outside of Sydney gives a f**k about Parramatta vs Penrith or Sydney vs South Sydney. Keeping all of these small clubs alive for sake of preserving their small rivalries, which draw small crowds when they're not played on a public holiday, has prevented the game back from generating a footprint across Australia.
f**k off you 2 headed C.U.nt.. you cant comprehend how backwards you are.. go and follow union, better chance to get a team backwards ass logan
 

Colk

First Grade
Messages
6,404
Easts firehawks was a joke... the tigers club as its own entity playing out of suncorp yes. But the mopes running that firehawks bid had tickets on themselves so hard, they couldn't even answer straight forward questions from journos on their "official bid conference" all they come with was copying the L.A lakers app fan service idea, then just kept repeating it... it was one of the most cringeworthy conferences ive ever watched... to say they had a great bid is being disingenuous to both jets and dolphins... they were better off joining with the jets, but that probably would have failed spectacularly with those fools on the bid committee...
"seriously you just don't get it guys, we know what we are doing" one of them actually said this.. it think it was Shane richos brother

The Firehawks made a fair few errors, primarily marketing
 
Messages
12,659
I honestly believe if Murdoch didn’t get involved all those clubs would’ve survived and we would still have had 20 teams all along

the peace deal set rugby league back 30 years it’s probably now the game is set again to grow

dolphins are a far better choice than the crushers
You've just been shown evidence that the Cowboys and Reds were destitute in Sydney due to the NSWRL burdening them with expenses that Sydney clubs didn't have, yet you think they would have been fine?

😂😁😅😳😆

That takes some mental gymnastics and is insane.

Crushers were struggling financially in 1995 and Warriors were also in a hole.

There were plenty of Sydney clubs who were broke. The reason so many ARL clubs fell over was because the ARL was broke and News Ltd weren't going to bail them out. It wasn't some conspiracy like people from Sydney think, but a matter of broke ARL clubs siding with a broke administration that didn't have the funds to bail them out. News Ltd weren't going to waste money on clubs that were loyal to their competitor.

The NSWRL relied on revenue from pokies to stay ahead of QRL and RFL clubs for 40 years, so cry me a river about Super League clubs having access to a revenue stream from News Ltd that the ARL clubs did not have. For the first time in history these ARL-aligned NSWRL clubs didn't have an extra revenue stream and their competitors from interstate did. The smart NSWRL clubs signed with News Ltd and survived.
 
Messages
12,659
According to Piggins (although he provides figures to back the claims up):

- He was aware of a long-term plan to merge Souths and the Roosters as far back as the early 90's. He and Nick Politis were invited for dinner at Kerry Packers' Vaucluse house in '94 with the intention to discuss a merger. Piggins shot it down right off the bat. After dinner Politis left, Piggins hopped in a cab with Packer who agreed to giving Souths $500k to continue staying afloat.

- Superleague and the post- SL rationalisation process just sped up what the NSWRL/ ARL had intended to do anyway: axe existing clubs or let them die a natural death. They'd already demonstrated this through cutting Newtown and Wests in '83, and Piggins had heard murmurs about Souths living on borrowed time as well.

- Had Peter Moore not taken Canterbury to SL, it never would've got off the ground. The Bulldogs were a long established, successful Sydney club with 60 years of history. Without them, SL was just a bunch of shelf companies and clubs with no more than 15 years history in the game and wouldn't have been taken seriously.

- The only difference between many of the "insolvent" former ARL clubs and the former SL clubs that "passed" the 14-team criteria was that the former SL clubs received several large cash injections from News Limited to stay afloat. It had virtually nothing to do with certain clubs being better run or more "strategic" to the long-term future of the game than others

- Balmain members were informed on the July 27, 1999 meeting that if they voted for Balmain to stand-alone (instead of electing a merger with Wests) they would fail the criteria. Ultimately, Balmain would have still made the cut if they elected to continue as a standalone club (I'm not confident they would've survived much longer but without merging/ relocating, regardless)

- There was an error in the final criteria that saw Penrith make the cut ranked #14 while Souths were ranked #15. In fact, their rankings were reversed. Piggins offered David Moffett (I think it was) to get a cab out to Penrith Leagues to inform Roger Cowan (then Panthers CEO) of the mistake but Moffett declined.
Mate, you're in denial and viewing the situation with sky blue tinted glasses.

The Broncos were the largest and most powerful rugby league club in the world before, during and after Super League. Don't take my word for it. Go look at their attendances, which were two to four times greater than the Sydney clubs. To claim that all of the Sydney clubs had more credibility than the Broncos due to being around longer is just bullshit and shows you don't understand what is required to survive in professional sports. There are BRL clubs that have been around since 1908, but they don't hold a candle to the Broncos in the world of professional sports.

How is Super League clubs having access to funds from News Ltd any different to NSWRL clubs having a revenue stream from pokies for 35 to 40 years before the laws were changed so the BRL clubs could finally access them?

Revenue from pokies allowed NSWRL clubs to kill the BRL. Revenue from News Ltd allowed the Super League clubs to survive while the ARL clubs were left to sink or swim. I'm told that BRL's inability to draw funds from pokies is the fault of the Queensland Gov for not changing the laws to be inline with NSW. If that's the case then the ARL-aligned clubs were stupid for not signing with News Ltd. At least most of the NSWRL clubs had a choice to sign with News Ltd or stay with the ARL. The BRL clubs had no choice but to compete without revenue from pokies for 35 to 40 years while the ones from Sydney got fat and rich off them.
 
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Reflector

Juniors
Messages
2,298
Mate, you're in denial and viewing the situation with sky blue tinted glasses.
A lot of people would say the same about yourself, just the tint is a more earthy tone...
The Broncos were the largest and most powerful rugby league club in the world before, during and after Super League. Don't take my word for it. Go look at their attendances, which were two to four times greater than the Sydney clubs.
Comparing the Broncos- the one ticket in a RL town- with 11 Sydney clubs is comparing apples with oranges.

Saying that, when the Crushers bid was approved entry the Broncos board had a hissy fit and (via the state newspaper their major backer happened to also own) used to it promote this idea that the evil NSWRL was trying to make life hard for the poor old Broncos again by forcing them to share Brisbane with another club. This played a considerable part in Superleague becoming more than just an idea in the first place...
To claim that all of the Sydney clubs had more credibility than the Broncos due to being around longer is just bullshit and shows you don't understand what is required to survive in professional sports. There are BRL clubs that have been around since 1908, but they don't hold a candle to the Broncos in the world of professional sports.
Ignoring the fact that (as Arthur Beetson pointed out once) for every person you meet in Qld who liked the Broncos, you could find 3 who hated them. The ARL was actually aware of the need for more teams in SEQ long-term and addressed this need. Neither did I suggest every circa 1994 Sydney club had more credibility than the Broncos. Notice that I didn't suggest Cronulla or Penrith defecting to SL made any difference, because (at the time) they were small fish with less than 30 years history and a single Premiership between them. Their support was niche, and whichever comp they played in, the wider RL didn't care. Both clubs have a different standing in the game today, but so does a club like the Cowboys.

However, the RL scene was different in 1994 and the Cowboys (like the Warriors) had barely played a game when SL broke out.

On the other hand the Bulldogs (like the Dragons, Manly, Roosters and Parramatta) were a wealthy and established Sydney club with a large and widespread following. If they didn't defect to SL, the only "big" clubs in SL would have been the Broncos and Raiders. Half the population of Brisbane (and that's being generous), some of the people in the ACT plus a bunch of minor/ brand new clubs with no real history. Hence SL wouldn't have been viewed as a serious competition.
How is Super League clubs having access to funds from News Ltd any different to NSWRL clubs having a revenue stream from pokies for 35 to 40 years before the laws were changed so the BRL clubs could finally access them.
Revenue from pokies allowed NSWRL clubs to kill the BRL. Revenue from News Ltd allowed the Super League clubs to survive while the ARL clubs were left to sink or swim. I'm told that BRL's inability to draw funds from pokies is the fault of the Queensland Gov for not changing the laws to be inline with NSW. If that's the case then the ARL-aligned clubs were stupid for not signing with News Ltd. At least most of the NSWRL clubs had a choice to sign with News Ltd or stay with the ARL. The BRL clubs had no choice but to compete without revenue from pokies for 35 to 40 years while the ones from Sydney got fat and rich off them.
Difference is that the BRL clubs continued playing after the introduction of the Broncos. The Broncos were never in the same competition, as they were a NSWRL club.

After the ARL/ SL split, the factions came together and the criteria was meant to unify the comp. Yet clearly, clubs who sided with SL were graded favourably to clubs who didn't regardless of where they were from or the manner in which they'd stayed afloat during just a few short previous years coinciding with the most divisive and turbulent time in the games' history.

Not every NSW club was a massive pokie palace. Difference is that the likes of Souths, Wests, Illawarra, Balmain etc. couldn't just go to News Limited over this brief period, cap in hand, and get an instant top-up of 6 to 8 figures. They had to rely on annual revenue from their licensed clubs which (again) were not all the size and wealth of Canterbury, Panthers, Parramatta etc.

The fact this discrepancy was ignored in a criteria to define which clubs were "fit" to keep playing in a unified competition was just a little too convenient. Then on top of that, while clubs like Norths and Balmain were deemed unfit to continue standalone according to these "experts" the Warriors (who passed) fell over just 12 months later and had to be rescued by new owners, while the Cowboys all but went to the wall soon after.

Incompetence from the experts, or corruption?
 
Messages
12,659
But...but...State Of Origin every week!

When two tribes go to war.....
Laugh all you like, but Super League drew better attendances than the ARL. The best attended clubs in 1997 were Brisbane, North Queensland, Auckland, Parramatta and Newcastle. Only one of them was from the Sydney. None of those clubs were around in 1908. Two of them were less than a decade old and the other two were playing in just their third season.

So much for NSWRL rivalries...
 

Reflector

Juniors
Messages
2,298
Laugh all you like, but Super League drew better attendances than the ARL. The best attended clubs in 1997 were Brisbane, North Queensland, Auckland, Parramatta and Newcastle. Only one of them was from the Sydney. None of those clubs were around in 1908. Two of them were less than a decade old and the other two were playing in just their third season.

So much for NSWRL rivalries...
I wasn't talking about average crowds per club, I was talking about the notion that nobody outside of Sydney cares about clashes like Easts v Souths, Dragons v Dogs or Parra v Manly

SL tried to convince us that Adelaide v Hunter Mariners and Cowboys v Warriors would have the same intensity to it as State Of Origin...or those Sydney rivalries you reckon nobody north of the Hawkesbury or west of Emu Plains gives a shit about....
 
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