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aqua_duck

aqua_duck

Coach
Messages
18,763
The Axe of Druss said:
Hudson Young proved this series that hes not up to it either tbh. Playing him in the middle didnt help i suppose
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Very hard on Young, game one he got 26 minutes, game 2 and 3 nsw were down by 20 points when he came on and as you mentioned he was played out of position. I’d have Haumole on the right edge because it’ll force Cleary to snap out of that Penrith system that seems to be muscle memory for him because Haumole is such a different type of player to Martin
 
H

HarVeeGee

Juniors
Messages
543
ColdWetPanther said:
Joey only won two series as halfback; his last two. Prior to that the only series he won was when Toovey or Kimorley was at halfback, and Johns was at 9 or even on the bench.

I agree with people having short memories, but they also suffer from nostalgia. Johns was a great player, but he wasn’t the dominant force many make him out to be, and there were quite a few series where he showed the same challenges as Cleary, and he couldn’t get the Blues across the line.
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I can't believe this still needs to be pointed out, but if you go back and watch those Joey "hooker" games, he's defending at 9 but playing halfback in attack, with Toovey at hooker in attack. Teammates did that for Tooves heaps in his career. At Manly in that era they had Serdaris and Lyons defend at 9 so Toovey could defend on an edge but play hooker in attack.

Queenslanders in their ignorance and denial have heavily pushed the "if Joey is the GOAT, why did Toovey get picked over him and force him to hooker?" line, but the reality is that Joey playing the whole game like that, elite halfback play while shouldering a hooker's defensive workload, is another argument in favour of his greatness, not against it.
 
H

HarVeeGee

Juniors
Messages
543
Woody90 said:
No he hasn’t.
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I would say Cleary has had some good games, but specifically in the context of putting his boot on Queensland's throat after other players have already put us on top. Definitely hasn't had a game like Moses' game 2 last year where the halfback was the one ripping Queensland to shreds and being the main reason we both won and won well.

Almost at the point where you wonder of Cleary is mentally shot at Origin level. Every close game with him at halfback, we lost, with the exception of the 2018 series where he was playing a very simple role and Maloney was really the main shot caller. Literally every other game with a 1-12 margin, where he was the main man at 7, we've lost and he has not played well. He has never come up with a big play when it really mattered. Maddening given that at club level he's THE halfback you want for close games and high pressure moments.

I'm not a huge Tom Dearden guy but Cleary has never played anything close to as well as Tom did on Wednesday at Origin level.
 
C

ColdWetPanther

Bench
Messages
4,650
HarVeeGee said:
I can't believe this still needs to be pointed out, but if you go back and watch those Joey "hooker" games, he's defending at 9 but playing halfback in attack, with Toovey at hooker in attack. Teammates did that for Tooves heaps in his career. At Manly in that era they had Serdaris and Lyons defend at 9 so Toovey could defend on an edge but play hooker in attack.

Queenslanders in their ignorance and denial have heavily pushed the "if Joey is the GOAT, why did Toovey get picked over him and force him to hooker?" line, but the reality is that Joey playing the whole game like that, elite halfback play while shouldering a hooker's defensive workload, is another argument in favour of his greatness, not against it.
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And the games he started off the bench? Was he playing halfback from the pine?

Or is an inability to unseat Brett Kimmorley after coming back from injury another argument in favour of his greatness?
 
H

HarVeeGee

Juniors
Messages
543
ColdWetPanther said:
And the games he started off the bench? Was he playing halfback from the pine?

Or is an inability to unseat Brett Kimmorley after coming back from injury another argument in favour of his greatness?
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So the guy:
- Comes back from injury, heavily underdone & far from 100%. Basically there's no chance he can play 80 in the shape he's in, and Kimmorley is a great 7 and they just won game 1. But he's Joey - you have to pick him. He's picked with a mind that he'll play as an extra playmaker in a roving role.
- Comes on ten minutes into the game unexpectedly, with Toovey coming off injured. He slots into dummy half, which wasn't actually where he trained.
- The Blues are down 10-6 in the 59th minute. In the next five minutes the Blues break the game open with three tries in consecutive sets, with Joey heavily involved in all three - if you go back and watch, the modern stats nerds would credit him with a try assist, two line break assists, a line break, two line break involvements, two try involvements and two offloads.
- With the game won with 13 minutes to play, Pearce pulls Joey from the field. Joey limps off and collapses with exhaustion after making the key match winning contribution to a game he probably shouldn't have even played in.

Yeah I would say this series is another point in his favour. Learn a bit of footy lore before starting a Joey debate with Knights sickos you f**king nephew.
 
mozza91

mozza91

Coach
Messages
15,452
HarVeeGee said:
So the guy:
- Comes back from injury, heavily underdone & far from 100%. Basically there's no chance he can play 80 in the shape he's in, and Kimmorley is a great 7 and they just won game 1. But he's Joey - you have to pick him. He's picked with a mind that he'll play as an extra playmaker in a roving role.
- Comes on ten minutes into the game unexpectedly, with Toovey coming off injured. He slots into dummy half, which wasn't actually where he trained.
- The Blues are down 10-6 in the 59th minute. In the next five minutes the Blues break the game open with three tries in consecutive sets, with Joey heavily involved in all three - if you go back and watch, the modern stats nerds would credit him with a try assist, two line break assists, a line break, two line break involvements, two try involvements and two offloads.
- With the game won with 13 minutes to play, Pearce pulls Joey from the field. Joey limps off and collapses with exhaustion after making the key match winning contribution to a game he probably shouldn't have even played in.

Yeah I would say this series is another point in his favour. Learn a bit of footy lore before starting a Joey debate with Knights sickos you f**king nephew.
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QFT.
Penrith fans are in such denial about Cleary’s inability to perform outside the structured Penrith system.
The fact they can say Cleary is better than Joey (at any level especially Origin) with a straight face is insane.
 
H

HarVeeGee

Juniors
Messages
543
Apey said:
My comment wasn't really about Origin performances or lack of. Cleary already has a more decorated career than Joey. He will most likely end up with more Origin wins and series victories too. He's got 5+ years left in the arena if we're honest. He will probably go down as the most decorated halfback of all time.

But Joey was the better player. Cleary just doesn't have the creativity, the ball-playing skills that Joey did. It really stands out more when you take him out of Penrith.

As my old mate @Chins would say, "he's a better Cooper Cronk". Cronk has 4 (legit) Premierships with two different teams and several more Origin series wins, but nobody is arguing his GOAT status, and rightly so. Though as an aside I do think Cronk is a bit underrated if anything tbh.
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Yep Cleary is Cronk in a better body. Cronk but built like a back rower, and he can throw a better pass than Cooper.

At this point the Cleary defence has to lean on the fact that the traits which make an elite Origin halfback are not the same as the ones that are ideal for a club halfback. Tom Dearden gave us about the best proof you'll see of that. I think it's very unlikely he'll ever be as good as Cleary at club level. But gee his best traits really really shone on Wednesday night. Will be interesting to see how he goes without Munster though who is probably the best "organising" half out of all current five-eighths.

And yeah on Cronk: One thing Cronk and Cleary have in common is that they were not good in Origin initially. One thing they don't have in common is that Cronk adapted and got better. Cleary dished up one of his worst performances on Wednesday night, in his 17th appearance at that level, at age 27. Still playing like it's a Penrith club game.

In Cleary's defence, I think playing with Thurston does make it pretty easy to understand what your role should be. Playing with Luai, who SUCKS... is a bit harder.
 
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