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Rod

Rod

Bench
Messages
3,964
Yosh said:
The Penrith style doesn't work at Origin level. Can't just grind away because the opposition isn't going to make mistakes and give up, especially not Queensland. Need to take the game to them.
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I said during the game I can't believe a team with a 1,6,7 and 13 that's won 4 premierships together can look so directionless. Cleary MIA once again, he's not even in Joey's orbit.

The coaching of course is a factor as well, who'd have thought a coach that be had proven beyond doubt in his first stint that he wasn't up to it...still isn't up to it. Plenty of blame to go around for NSW.
 
aqua_duck

aqua_duck

Coach
Messages
18,763
Rod said:
I said during the game I can't believe a team with a 1,6,7 and 13 that's won 4 premierships together can look so directionless. Cleary MIA once again, he's not even in Joey's orbit.

The coaching of course is a factor as well, who'd have thought a coach that be had proven beyond doubt in his first stint that he wasn't up to it...still isn't up to it. Plenty of blame to go around for NSW.
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Most club sides have defensive patterns that you can prepare for and likewise there’s attacking patterns that defences prepare for so it comes down to execution and effort, Penrith are able to execute better than anyone else and their effort is top notch too. The issue at club level is it’s much harder to game plan, Qld have had so many changes especially in terms of the edge defensive players. Tonight the Penrith boys just tried to bring their tried and tested penrith game play and qld knew what to expect but they didn’t know what kind of defence qld was going to bring and what’s damning is they couldn’t adjust on the fly.
 
Rod

Rod

Bench
Messages
3,964
aqua_duck said:
Most club sides have defensive patterns that you can prepare for and likewise there’s attacking patterns that defences prepare for so it comes down to execution and effort, Penrith are able to execute better than anyone else and their effort is top notch too. The issue at club level is it’s much harder to game plan, Qld have had so many changes especially in terms of the edge defensive players. Tonight the Penrith boys just tried to bring their tried and tested penrith game play and qld knew what to expect but they didn’t know what kind of defence qld was going to bring and what’s damning is they couldn’t adjust on the fly.
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All true but even at a more basic level a spine with their resumes should be able to organize basic attacking structures and use momentum to their advantage. One set the NSW backs got a bit of a roll on and then on the 4th tackle Cleary hesitated with the ball and then flung it inside to Leniu who was standing there flat-footed. All momentum lost and NSW had to settle for another Cleary bomb and hope. It was all so clunky, unforgiveable really at that level.

Contrast that with Joey in 2005 who according to the other players came into camp and was barking orders left, right and centre telling everyone where to go and what lines to run etc. Tonight it looked like not a single NSW player knew where to go or what to do, except maybe To'o lol.
 
Rod

Rod

Bench
Messages
3,964
aqua_duck said:
He’s probably behind Haumole, Hudson and Preston.
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And Koloamatangi, who I rate reasonably high as well. Dylan just happens to be in a position where NSW is absolutely flush.

Unlike the front row for example where guys like Max King and Utoikamanu are being asked to play major roles that they're not up to.
 
Apey

Apey

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
29,183
Rugby league fans and particularly media pundits truly have the shortest memories. The recency bias is nuts. Like Gus saying Galvin is the best junior he's ever seen. Joey's a shocker for it too really.

Cleary will go down as one of the best and most accomplished halfbacks in the game but Joey had more talent in his pinky fingers.
 
C

ColdWetPanther

Bench
Messages
4,645
Apey said:
Rugby league fans and particularly media pundits truly have the shortest memories. The recency bias is nuts. Like Gus saying Galvin is the best junior he's ever seen. Joey's a shocker for it too really.

Cleary will go down as one of the best and most accomplished halfbacks in the game but Joey had more talent in his pinky fingers.
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Joey only won two series as halfback; his last two. Prior to that the only series he won was when Toovey or Kimorley was at halfback, and Johns was at 9 or even on the bench.

I agree with people having short memories, but they also suffer from nostalgia. Johns was a great player, but he wasn’t the dominant force many make him out to be, and there were quite a few series where he showed the same challenges as Cleary, and he couldn’t get the Blues across the line.
 
Woody90

Woody90

Bench
Messages
3,724
ColdWetPanther said:
Joey only won two series as halfback; his last two. Prior to that the only series he won was when Toovey or Kimorley was at halfback, and Johns was at 9 or even on the bench.

I agree with people having short memories, but they also suffer from nostalgia. Johns was a great player, but he wasn’t the dominant force many make him out to be, and there were quite a few series where he showed the same challenges as Cleary, and he couldn’t get the Blues across the line.
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Johns could dominate at rep level though. No player is going to be dominant every single game, but we’ve never ever seen Cleary be able to do it at rep level despite now being NSW’s most capped halfback, and that’s what it comes down to.

Cleary is an excellent player in a good system, but he’s very methodical which is great in club land but in SOO where sides don’t get enough training together to become a “machine” like Penrith have been, you need your playmakers to just play and play what they see and I’ve never seen Cleary be able to do that in a Blues jersey. Ironically we did see him do that in a big game in the 2023 GF with his try, which should have been the turning point, but for some reason he still can’t seem to break away from “system” play at Origin level.
 
C

ColdWetPanther

Bench
Messages
4,645
Woody90 said:
Johns could dominate at rep level though. No player is going to be dominant every single game, but we’ve never ever seen Cleary be able to do it at rep level despite now being NSW’s most capped halfback, and that’s what it comes down to.
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That is categorically untrue. He has had some amazing games at Origin level.
 
Apey

Apey

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
29,183
ColdWetPanther said:
Joey only won two series as halfback; his last two. Prior to that the only series he won was when Toovey or Kimorley was at halfback, and Johns was at 9 or even on the bench.

I agree with people having short memories, but they also suffer from nostalgia. Johns was a great player, but he wasn’t the dominant force many make him out to be, and there were quite a few series where he showed the same challenges as Cleary, and he couldn’t get the Blues across the line.
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My comment wasn't really about Origin performances or lack of. Cleary already has a more decorated career than Joey. He will most likely end up with more Origin wins and series victories too. He's got 5+ years left in the arena if we're honest. He will probably go down as the most decorated halfback of all time.

But Joey was the better player. Cleary just doesn't have the creativity, the ball-playing skills that Joey did. It really stands out more when you take him out of Penrith.

As my old mate @Chins would say, "he's a better Cooper Cronk". Cronk has 4 (legit) Premierships with two different teams and several more Origin series wins, but nobody is arguing his GOAT status, and rightly so. Though as an aside I do think Cronk is a bit underrated if anything tbh.
 
aqua_duck

aqua_duck

Coach
Messages
18,763
Rod said:
And Koloamatangi, who I rate reasonably high as well. Dylan just happens to be in a position where NSW is absolutely flush.

Unlike the front row for example where guys like Max King and Utoikamanu are being asked to play major roles that they're not up to.
Click to expand...
I think Keaon is a middle now
 
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Yosh

Yosh

Coach
Messages
12,537
Rod said:
And Koloamatangi, who I rate reasonably high as well. Dylan just happens to be in a position where NSW is absolutely flush.

Unlike the front row for example where guys like Max King and Utoikamanu are being asked to play major roles that they're not up to.
Click to expand...
I reckon Koloamatangi will play middle at a Origin level and Hudson should keep playing there too. Haumolo plays right side so maybe Dylan could be in line for a call up on the left edge!!
 
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