New Zealand 2 will deal a massive blow to NZ rugby

[jolly boys outing]

Warriors get a chance to avenge their loss

I’m guessing they’ve never won it before

Did any of the lower sides make it to their grand finals ?

I think they’ve made the final twice just like the 1st grade side and like the 1st grade side they’ve lost both.

they did the Harold matts back2back.

 

[Wb1234]

I think they’ve made the final twice just like the 1st grade side and like the 1st grade side they’ve lost both.

they did the Harold matts back2back.

Wow beating Penrith too

That’s very promising with the nsw cup as well

Maybe the warriors are finally doing things right

 

[jolly boys outing]

Wow beating Penrith too

That’s very promising with the nsw cup as well

Maybe the warriors are finally doing things right

To be fair the warriors have always been pretty strong at youth level.

seem to remember them always performing well during the Toyota cup days.

 

[Wb1234]

To be fair the warriors have always been pretty strong at youth level.

seem to remember them always performing well during the Toyota cup days.

Yeh but they aren’t making it to first grade in large numbers whilst Aussie clubs are doing that with their kiwi juniors

 

[jolly boys outing]

Yeh but they aren’t making it to first grade in large numbers whilst Aussie clubs are doing that with their kiwi juniors

The warriors always seem to prioritize and target young kiwi forwards.

been about half a dozen juniors debut in last 2 years.

 

[Matiunz]

To be fair the warriors have always been pretty strong at youth level.

seem to remember them always performing well during the Toyota cup days.

Yeah we dominated in the old Toyota cup days, problem is a few guys went straight from under 20s to the first grade side without developing in NSWCup first (a lesson learnt too late).
Whilst the 20s did well it wasn’t really proper league, defence was essentially optional as long as you could score more tries than the opposition- which the Warriors tended to do by chucking in kids that were physically bigger than their peers in the other teams. Classic example of this is the birth of the ’prop wing’ archetype we used to favour.
Another issue was each grade didnt have a cohesive plan or playing style, each grade was out for their own results which didn’t help develop first graders. The coverage it got also inflated a few egos which was shit for the culture when they reached first grade (Locke, Hurrell and arguably SJ, could even argue Packer).
Sure a few gems came through but they were pretty unpolished and the Warriors did a poor job of developing them at the time which I suspect is why there was a flood of nz born players prefering to move to better systems earlier. It looks like we are finally on the right track now though thankfully

 

[Matiunz]

The warriors always seem to prioritize and target young kiwi forwards.

been about half a dozen juniors debut in last 2 years.

Considering the talent we have in union I really don’t understand how we’ve struggled to get a controlling half or quality wings through local talent for a long time

 

[Gobsmacked]

Considering the talent we have in union I really don’t understand how we’ve struggled to get a controlling half or quality wings through local talent for a long time

I feel as though in Australia school boys RL they're working with kids early on with game management, kicking game ect that is on display in those tournaments and that gets attention.
Kiwis develop such raw skill and athletism at a young age and that gets the attention.

Even still there's a shortage of halves, the massive League heartland of Newcastle and the hunter can't seem to produce one since Joey.

My thinking is that halves aren't a born talent, it's tought and learned from a young age if done successfully and if you don't have someone putting that time into kids from 10 years old, they're always going to be hard to come by. That's what makes a Nathan Cleary.

NZ needs to be paying high profile people like Stacy Jones to set in place programs to teach the top school boy talent at a national level.

The NRL should be funding select schools across NZ to run a national school boys competition would be my best guess.

 

[Wb1234]

Panthers' vast, painstaking NRL pathway

avatar.png
by Scott Bailey , 3 years ago


4 minute read
Penrith's sprawling junior academy of success is encapsulated in a magnet board that links 80 under-13s and the difficulty of NRL salary cap management.

JAMES MALONEY. JAMES MALONEY. Picture: Ashley Feder/Getty Images
Somewhere inside Penrith's renowned NRL academy is a colour-coded magnet board with the progress of more than 100 pathways players on it.
At one point or another, it's held the names of 21 of Penrith's current 30-man NRL squad, including virtually every big-name player.
"It's something we look at every day after every training session," Penrith's elite player development manager Ben Harden tells AAP.
"Whether it is a Harold Matthews, SG Ball or Jersey Flegg session, some magnets are getting moved on a daily basis. Some not for months."
Harden is the man charged with overseeing Penrith's famed pathways program.
A gun young halfback himself earlier this century, his career was ended by four straight knee reconstructions.
Some at Penrith reckon if not for the injuries, he'd still be their No.7.
But in many ways, the club has won out by having him in charge of the pathways system and working the whiteboard instead.
Every magnet moved on Penrith's board has a flow-on effect.
At the top end, it tells the Panthers what superstars are coming through their ranks and when they'll need to make room for them.
Think the purchase of veteran James Maloney in 2018, buying the Panthers two years to bring Jarome Luai through.
Or James Tamou, let go at the end of last year with Spencer Leniu and Moses Leota ready to fill the hole.
"It's minimum three or four years (working ahead)," Harden said.
"While I am coaching the Jersey Flegg I am thinking 2023 or 2024 NRL salary cap. That is my job."
At the other end of the magnet board is the management of one of the biggest junior systems in rugby league.
A result of eight years of evolution that started with now GM of football Matt Cameron and Jim Jones, it has helped make Penrith a powerhouse.
Much spoken about, it's important to lay out how a system that has more than 300 youngsters in it creates an NRL squad of 30.
Around four weeks before Christmas every year in non-COVID times, 80 under-13s locals are brought through the Panthers' doors for training.
Each year they are taught the same basics by each coach's designated age group, with Jones' son Sam helping select the group of hopefuls.
Former Penrith second-rower Lee Hopkins oversees conditioning, while all coaches live by a simple mantra to get young players ready to enter the club's system.
Kids must learn their timetables before they do quadratic equations.
"It's a basic principles and awareness of the game being taught," Harden said.
"It's about you have to wear the shirt we give you. You have to ring if you're late.
"We start to plant that seed, we don't care how good you are. It's about how good of a person you are and what values you have."
A year later that group of 80 becomes 50, and by under-15s it is 40.
At the same time, similar programs are being run in the bush at satellite cities of Dubbo, Forbes and Bathurst under the likes of former Penrith lock Dave Elvy.
"We've stopped the lingo, that its 'out there'. We count that as part of our area," Harden said.
"They are just our western region program in the same way we have our Penrith development program."
By Harold Matthews Cup in under-17s, the two groups first mix.
Jones Jnr drives a mini bus to Bathurst each Friday, bringing players back to Penrith to train that night and play on Saturday.
For under-19s and under-21s more regional kids come into the system, as talented players make the move over east the mountains.
Not every player has followed the system from the start.
Luai was part of the first intake of under-14s, Nathan Cleary arrived in under-15s.
Brian To'o, Mitch Kenny and Stephen Crichton all missed out on Harold Matts selection, but quickly fast-tracked their way into SG Ball.
All the while, their progression remains tracked on the magnet board, as well as several whiteboards, spreadsheets and as Harden puts it: "IP between the ears."
"I am talking to Matt Cameron about problems we will have and in what positions," Harden said.
"And if I feel the players can do 90 per cent of his role at 25 per cent of the price, then that is my job (to point that out)."
Their task has become harder too, with success boosting the price of players quicker than originally expected.
Viliame Kikau is the next example of that, off-contract next year and already set to attract high interest on bigger money after the club already lost Matt Burton.
Grand finalists last season, Penrith have gone quickly to managing a roster with several marquee players rather than one built on potential.
"As a player trickles out at $20, you might have to replace him with a $10 player," Cameron said.
"Or we might have four of those $5 players, and we have to work out which one we turn into the $10 player.
"That's the beauty of being a development club, we should have five in every position.
"It's then which three you carry into a first-grade squad and which one you turn into a pro-baller."
In retention and recruitment meetings, Harden not only identifies who those players are, but the young stars that space will need to be made for in years to come.
And in turn, what actions must be taken now to allow it.
"It's all about trust. The trust that I pick them, Jimmy gets them (contracted)," Harden said.
"I help coach them, Hoppo (Lee Hopkins) gets them fitter, faster and stronger. Sammy helps look after them.
"Everyone has their cog in the wheel."

This was posted by @mothernaturesson

Shows how pathways work when they are set o properly and where the warriors need to get too

 

[Matua]

The NRL should be funding select schools across NZ to run a national school boys competition would be my best guess.

I said this in the early days of this thread ... IIRC I was told, not sure by whom, that it wasn't the NRLs job to fund it.

 

[Gobsmacked]

I said this in the early days of this thread ... IIRC I was told, not sure by whom, that it wasn't the NRLs job to fund it.

Hopefully we're moving towards the NRL being the central governing body globaly, they run internationals local comps right down to the grass roots. They've increased their funding into NZ but I think NZRL are still in charge of most things in NZ.

I'd hope NZ gets their own say and people to run things but it would be through the NRL. Obviously there's scare mongering used to hold onto power.

England, France.. almost everywhere could be run centrally.

We're are not far away from being global streamlined under 1 organization .

 

[Wb1234]

I said this in the early days of this thread ... IIRC I was told, not sure by whom, that it wasn't the NRLs job to fund it.

It’s not

They don’t fund it in Australia the state bodies do

They could give the nzrl more money as it’s their jurisdiction

The nswrl and qrl got a big funding increase recently

The problem for the nzrl is they don’t get a vote like the nswrl and qrl do as to who can be on the board of the arlc and who gets sacked

If they had a vote Pvl would be forced to bribe them like he does the nswrl and qrl

 

[Matiunz]

I feel as though in Australia school boys RL they're working with kids early on with game management, kicking game ect that is on display in those tournaments and that gets attention.
Kiwis develop such raw skill and athletism at a young age and that gets the attention.

Even still there's a shortage of halves, the massive League heartland of Newcastle and the hunter can't seem to produce one since Joey.

My thinking is that halves aren't a born talent, it's tought and learned from a young age if done successfully and if you don't have someone putting that time into kids from 10 years old, they're always going to be hard to come by. That's what makes a Nathan Cleary.

NZ needs to be paying high profile people like Stacy Jones to set in place programs to teach the top school boy talent at a national level.

The NRL should be funding select schools across NZ to run a national school boys competition would be my best guess.

Even though league development hits far too late for halves there’s plenty of very solid union 10s that have plenty of transferable skills in terms of game management and territory kicking in particular- the short kicking game would need the most work but there’s 14 NPC 10s that are comparable NSW equivalent level and half of them aren’t going to get a shot at super rugby- it’s at least worth investigating.

Love Stacey and have massive respect for the man but outside of his playing days he’s been a symptom of the ‘jobs for the boys’ culture problem the NZRL has- I’m not even sure kids these days even really know who he was? Shaun Johnson would possibly be a better fit but again need to move away from that.

100% on board with a schools comp, but would need to have it more regional and away from Auckland- as it stands most provincial schools would struggle to compete with most of the Auckland and a chunk of the better Canterbury clubs- this is an untapped growth

 

[Matua]

Even though league development hits far too late for halves there’s plenty of very solid union 10s that have plenty of transferable skills in terms of game management and territory kicking in particular- the short kicking game would need the most work but there’s 14 NPC 10s that are comparable NSW equivalent level and half of them aren’t going to get a shot at super rugby- it’s at least worth investigating.

Love Stacey and have massive respect for the man but outside of his playing days he’s been a symptom of the ‘jobs for the boys’ culture problem the NZRL has- I’m not even sure kids these days even really know who he was? Shaun Johnson would possibly be a better fit but again need to move away from that.

100% on board with a schools comp, but would need to have it more regional and away from Auckland- as it stands most provincial schools would struggle to compete with most of the Auckland and a chunk of the better Canterbury clubs- this is an untapped growth

When I mentioned it initially I envisaged a school like St Johns in Hastings being approached to essentially switch and focus on league rather than rugby as they're real minnows now (when I was at school they could occasionally beat Hastings Boys and often beat Lindersfarne). They could then be the hub school for the region for league players as they already have buses from Napier/Central HB bringing students in due to being a Catholic school. That could be repeated in other regions.

Maybe Jones could be a good skills/tactics coach, but he sure as hell isn't a good head coach.

 

[Matiunz]

When I mentioned it initially I envisaged a school like St Johns in Hastings being approached to essentially switch and focus on league rather than rugby as they're real minnows now (when I was at school they could occasionally beat Hastings Boys and often beat Lindersfarne). They could then be the hub school for the region for league players as they already have buses from Napier/Central HB bringing students in due to being a Catholic school. That could be repeated in other regions.

Maybe Jones could be a good skills/tactics coach, but he sure as hell isn't a good head coach.

Yeah I was there as the whole ‘scholarship’ poaching started to become a thing. Pretty much meant the likes of Hastings Boys and Napier Boys (and other super 8 schools) pretty much monopolised the local rugby schools scene.
St John’s is probably a good shout, the likes of Te Aute or Tamara other options but possibly too small- but yeah similar model with 1-2 anchor schools and you could get a decent lower/central North island schools comp going and possibly something similar South Island

 

[Perth Red]

Nzrl is trying to do it with around $2mill of nrl funding, WA was trying to do it with less than $1mill of nrl funding. nrl has abdicated responsibility to clubs which is great if you are lucky enough to have a club in your area, especially if it’s got pokies, otherwise there is very little jnr development happening.
going to be interesting to see what an extra $5mill and Ian Millward can do for player development in WA.

 

[Gobsmacked]

Rugby Union will always be king in NZ.

That is of course as international contests are concerned. Union have built global competition between nations over a hundred years, that's the Pinnacle of their sport and the primary driver of funds flowing through into their sport, mostly inspired by patriotism but coupled with the best talent makes a great spectacul and it can not be denied.

Rugby league is the NRL and winning a premiership will always be the Pinnacle.
Source: Zero Tackle
https://search.app/diaWw

Marky Mark will leave to be part of the WC on home soil and good on him! He's done everything in a respectful way and condones himself honorabley.

However as the NRL adds Dolphins,Perth and PNG to grow and expand, it's not so easy to grow for RU .
You can't add counties so easily.. and they will only ever have 1 All blacks.. but the NRL doesn't have to sit on just the Warriors.. while Union is milking what they have for whatever it's worth.. the NRL will continue to expand with new teams in new regions and new countries.

 

[Wb1234]

Rugby Union will always be king in NZ.

That is of course as international contests are concerned. Union have built global competition between nations over a hundred years, that's the Pinnacle of their sport and the primary driver of funds flowing through into their sport, mostly inspired by patriotism but coupled with the best talent makes a great spectacul and it can not be denied.

Rugby league is the NRL and winning a premiership will always be the Pinnacle.
Source: Zero Tackle
https://search.app/diaWw

Marky Mark will leave to be part of the WC on home soil and good on him! He's done everything in a respectful way and condones himself honorabley.

However as the NRL adds Dolphins,Perth and PNG to grow and expand, it's not so easy to grow for RU .
You can't add counties so easily.. and they will only ever have 1 All blacks.. but the NRL doesn't have to sit on just the Warriors.. while Union is milking what they have for whatever it's worth.. the NRL will continue to expand with new teams in new regions and new countries.

Future is the club game

If that goes so does internationals eventually

And best way to grow international league is more pro clubs in other nations ie nz 2 and 3, png, Fiji, toulose, Lyon, marseille, Cardiff ?

 

[Gobsmacked]

Future is the club game

If that goes so does internationals eventually

And best way to grow international league is more pro clubs in other nations ie nz 2 and 3, png, Fiji, toulose, Lyon, marseille, Cardiff ?

100%
I get laughed at for suggesting Cardiff or Dublin but they're all realistic expension possibilities in the future. So long as we have a stable financial base.
The NRL are on very sound financial footing operating at massive surplus! So long as we continue to expand within our means, sky is the limit! Perth is a little risky but should become self sustainable and PNG has been given the sound finances. NZ is the next easy picking.. FIJI with government funding could be on the cards too.

If the NRL got involved in SL, got the finances in order with some quality control through consolidation. They could grow the financial base and expand it ! Into big new markets!
Spoiler alert.. not Leigh lol

 

[Wb1234]

100%
I get laughed at for suggesting Cardiff or Dublin but they're all realistic expension possibilities in the future. So long as we have a stable financial base.
The NRL are on very sound financial footing operating at massive surplus! So long as we continue to expand within our means, sky is the limit! Perth is a little risky but should become self sustainable and PNG has been given the sound finances. NZ is the next easy picking.. FIJI with government funding could be on the cards too.

If the NRL got involved in SL, got the finances in order with some quality control through consolidation. They could grow the financial base and expand it ! Into big new markets!
Spoiler alert.. not Leigh lol

Nrl should just focus on nz png tonga Samoa and Fiji for the next 20 years

I don’t think two nz nrl sides is enough if we want to really go at union properly

Super league will sort themselves out they aren’t far off it now