Kiwis vs Samoa 19th Oct 25

[Manu Vatuvei]

The idea of a guy from West Auckland using the word solipsism, a word I had never encountered in my 40+ years on this earth - having done a communications degree and worked in the media -is outrageous.

tbh I probably just learned the word because I engage in so much solipsism that I really needed to be able to describe it properly

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

Fair enough. Funny thing I've just realised is the last ANZAC test was 2017. I think that's just a coincidence, but it didn't help that the 2017 defections coincided with the last mid-season Australia v NZ test.

Was also the back end of Kidwell's reign of horror wasnt it.

Was a pretty ordinary time all round... axing of the ANZAC tests, player defections, and poor results born from a shit coach and shitty team culture.

All of it probably contributing to where we are today.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

The truth is that since the nadir in 2017: we beat Australia in 2018, we beat Tonga resoundingly in 2019 and 2022, we came within inches of beating Australia at the 2022 World Cup, we easily won the 2023 Pacific Champs.....our performances have by no means gone significantly downhill since 2017, in fact they've improved (certainly under Madge - big question marks remain over Stacey).

For me the "defections" still leave a very sour taste in the mouth but I guess the reality is the Kiwis are still generally good enough to compete. Actually, part of that is also Australia losing a lot of players. They have a big advantage in the spine players available to them but their forward stocks are flimsy.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Much respect to all true fans (I try to be one for the most part) but all I can say is that my interest waned when it became apparent that major demographics of NZ league players were likely to become unavailable to us going forward.

I think a lot of my fascination with international league over the years has been sort of based on "imagine if the Kiwis could actually get their full strength team together". Like at one point any Kiwi in the NRL was likely to make the Kiwis, then that progressed to the Kiwis mostly being "good" NRL players, and then for the last decade or so you've had tons of elite Kiwi NRL players. To finally get to that point, where the NRL was absolutely stacked with Kiwi players, and then revert back to a heap of those guys becoming unavailable just felt like such a regressive step to me that a part of me honestly gave up at that point.

For every "Kiwi-Samoan" or "Kiwi-Tongan" player gained by Samoa or Tonga, we lose that exact player. What we lose and what they gain in terms of players is literally equal.

Of course you can weaken 2 elite teams to make 4 strong teams and it's arguable that this makes for a more interesting competition. Doesn't change the fact that you're cumulatively improving the player pool of those two teams by the same amount as you've cumulatively weakened the player pool of the other two teams.

I also think the fact that you can still piece together hypothetical good Kiwi/Aussie 17s sort of misses the point, because in reality there are still going to be heaps of players unavailable and you end up going down the depth chart - just like the bad old days when the Kiwis might have had 17 decent players, but were picking blokes out of reserve grade if a few guys got injured.

Fair enough. Funny thing I've just realised is the last ANZAC test was 2017. I think that's just a coincidence, but it didn't help that the 2017 defections coincided with the last mid-season Australia v NZ test.

On the 2017 thing, I loved that Tonga beat us in the pool play and at that stage, I remember still being interested. But the Fiji QF with SJ's 'Youse' rubbish, Adam Blair running for negative metres (story for effect) then chewing gum and not caring, the fact the coach was David Kidwell and his gob shite 'put the Wi in the Ki' rubbish, making them sleep in maraes before Tests as some sort of cultural steel, those were all factors...and I didn't realise that was the last ANZAC Test but that happened at the worst time. I literally went 6 years without giving a monkey's, until 2023 I realised we might have 17 guys that care again.

I still disagree on the Kiwis/Tonga/Samoa Peter v Paul thing, because no one's being 'robbed'. Those guys are free to choose. Isaako, Leota, NAS and others I may have missed, qualify for Tonga/Samoa. But they have decided their heart is with NZ. The idea that no Tongan/Samoan guy will play for NZ again, I don't believe. Is there pressure on them to go with their PI heritage? I guess there would be. But I think it is how it should be, right now. Rugby union couldn't do it, because the ABs would become weaker and the NZRU forced into a corner to pick overseas players.

We really don't have the right to someone like AFB, who would never have lived in NZ if he wasn't signed by us. We only got him for one Test because at that time, Tonga wasn't viable. Someone like Leka, born in Tonga. Taumalolo is probably the only thing I can think of, that probably 'should' play for NZ, but doesn't want to.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

On the 2017 thing, I loved that Tonga beat us in the pool play and at that stage, I remember still being interested. But the Fiji QF with SJ's 'Youse' rubbish, Adam Blair running for negative metres (story for effect) then chewing gum and not caring, the fact the coach was David Kidwell and his gob shite 'put the Wi in the Ki' rubbish, making them sleep in maraes before Tests as some sort of cultural steel, those were all factors...and I didn't realise that was the last ANZAC Test but that happened at the worst time. I literally went 6 years without giving a monkey's, until 2023 I realised we might have 17 guys that care again.

I still disagree on the Kiwis/Tonga/Samoa Peter v Paul thing, because no one's being 'robbed'. Those guys are free to choose. Isaako, Leota, NAS and others I may have missed, qualify for Tonga/Samoa. But they have decided their heart is with NZ. The idea that no Tongan/Samoan guy will play for NZ again, I don't believe. Is there pressure on them to go with their PI heritage? I guess there would be. But I think it is how it should be, right now. Rugby union couldn't do it, because the ABs would become weaker and the NZRU forced into a corner to pick overseas players.

We really don't have the right to someone like AFB, who would never have lived in NZ if he wasn't signed by us. We only got him for one Test because at that time, Tonga wasn't viable. Someone like Leka, born in Tonga. Taumalolo is probably the only thing I can think of, that probably 'should' play for NZ, but doesn't want to.

I wouldn’t purport to tell any particular player who to play for. On the other hand, I can observe and comment on wider trends and in this case, there is a large cohort of players whose nationality observed ‘objectively’ would appear to be Kiwi or Australian, but they are not available for those teams. It’s not 1 or 2 blokes here or there, it’s almost the entire Samoan and Tongan squads.

 

[Blair]

The idea of a guy from West Auckland using the word solipsism, a word I had never encountered in my 40+ years on this earth - having done a communications degree and worked in the media -is outrageous.

I had to look it up too and have also 'done a communications degree and worked in the media'. I have seen the word before, if that counts.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Of course I know that talking about ‘objective nationality’ is a fraught subject, but my opinion/observation is that traditionally for the purposes of international sport, nationality has been defined by where a person lives, or has primarily lived. It’s about seeing your peers represent your nation.

Normalising defining nationality on racial lines is weirdly regressive and the same thing racists do.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

I wouldn’t purport to tell any particular player who to play for. On the other hand, I can observe and comment on wider trends and in this case, there is a large cohort of players whose nationality observed ‘objectively’ would appear to be Kiwi or Australian, but they are not available for those teams. It’s not 1 or 2 blokes here or there, it’s almost the entire Samoan and Tongan squads.

Yeah then that becomes a nationality v ethnicity thing, right?

I don't mind it, because clearly you have to live in either Australia or NZ to make your way in our game, but that shouldn't stop you from representing the country you feel the most affinity to. In an ideal world, you'd do that in union, too, but that would be of no interest to the ABs or Wallabies.

Normalising defining nationality on racial lines is weirdly regressive and the same thing racists do.

Hmmm this is a stretch. It's not race, it's ethnicity. And as above, there are reasons it makes more sense, then you cannot primarily live in any of the islands and play in the NRL, or make it to the NRL (I admit there's been a precious few exceptions, mainly from Fiji).

 

[Penrose Warrior]

I had to look it up too and have also 'done a communications degree and worked in the media'. I have seen the word before, if that counts.

So you're saying you're smarter than me?

(you likely are)

 

[Blair]

Rugby union couldn't do it, because the ABs would become weaker and the NZRU forced into a corner to pick overseas players.

I can't recall a player that ever chose an island nation over the All Blacks. That brand is king. Going back to , what, the '95 League World Cup?, remember they were desperate for teams. NZ Maori were in there, and there must've been a few players that chose them over the Kiwis?

(I'm not making counter points against your post, it's just related discussion).

 

[Blair]

So you're saying you're smarter than me?

(you likely are)

You used a big word this year (I forget what it was) that I couldn't understand (but had seen it), so it kind of makes things square.

 

[Matua]

. Those guys are free to choose

This issue isn't with guys only eligible for NZ and the PIs and who they choose. Where the freedom to choose disappears is when Origin is involved. Look at Mulitalo, he wanted to play Qld and Samoa, seems like a clear choice right, except it wasn't, as soon as the Origin carrot was gone he switched to NZ. If it's open slather for everyone with Origin then I wouldn't have a problem with the system.

The idea that no Tongan/Samoan guy will play for NZ again, I don't believe.

I don't think anyone is claiming this. And also no one is saying we have the right to claim AFB or Leka. We should never have selected AFB, especially instead of Bromwich on morality reasons - but as we all know the Kiwis/NZRL was a clusterfudge at the time, and Leka is one of the few actual from Tonga Tongans. Taumalolo left because of an issue with the coach, the coach who was a dickhead, but all the carry on about him heroically doing it because he remembered he was Tongan gets on my goat, especially the timing of when he left. Kidwell being less of a dick earlier in the year and the Tongan revolution may never of happened.

I can't recall a player that ever chose an island nation over the All Blacks. That brand is king. Going back to , what, the '95 League World Cup?, remember they were desperate for teams. NZ Maori were in there, and there must've been a few players that chose them over the Kiwis?

(I'm not making counter points against your post, it's just related discussion).

No way, those Maori squads were the leftovers and young guys except for Nikau who refused to play in the Kiwis if Blackmore played.

 

[Matua]

There’s a couple key reasons for mine:

6pm kick off means getting home 8.30-9.00pm for most, which is pretty late for a school night. Obviously not so late as to put everyone off but for casual fans - the difference between 15k vs 20k+ in the stands - IMO it would definitely be an impediment. I know it would be for me if my kids were younger.

And culturally, attending footy on a Sunday just isn’t an option for many Pacifica supporters and NZRL acknowledged as much in the week leading up to the game. Again, not everyone, but enough for a visible difference in crowd numbers. Some wouldn't have even watched it on TV because it was Sunday.

TBH, I don't think the PIs are that religious ... hell, the majority of Sunday's crowd were PIs, it was those heathen non PI NZers who didn't turn up.

Ah well, the game wasn't on Saturday so I guess we can only speculate.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Taumalolo left because of an issue with the coach, the coach who was a dickhead, but all the carry on about him heroically doing it because he remembered he was Tongan gets on my goat, especially the timing of when he left. Kidwell being less of a dick earlier in the year and the Tongan revolution may never of happened.

I think we can all agree on this part. David Kidwell, amazingly for such a largely irrelevant figure in the grand scheme of league, had such an oversized influence on the international game

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Yeah then that becomes a nationality v ethnicity thing, right?

Yes and international sport is about separating people by nationality. It's not about ethnic teams playing each other.

I don't mind it, because clearly you have to live in either Australia or NZ to make your way in our game, but that shouldn't stop you from representing the country you feel the most affinity to. In an ideal world, you'd do that in union, too, but that would be of no interest to the ABs or Wallabies.

Players are free to make that choice based on the rules at the relevant time, but it's still supposed to be international sport based on nationality.

Hmmm this is a stretch. It's not race, it's ethnicity.

What's the relevant difference here? Is "normalising defining nationality on ethnic lines" more acceptable?

The point in this context is, old white blokes 10 years ago complaining "the Kiwis are full of Islanders now" were wrong and racist (or ethnocist if you prefer) because those players were New Zealanders by nationality. Failing to accept someone of a different ethnicity as a New Zealander is racism/ethnocism/xenophobia - call it what you want, but it's bad.

Reverting back to New Zealanders of other ethnicities not really being New Zealanders is fundamentally regressive.

And as above, there are reasons it makes more sense, then you cannot primarily live in any of the islands and play in the NRL, or make it to the NRL (I admit there's been a precious few exceptions, mainly from Fiji).

Two points here:

1 - If rugby league does not exist to any serious extent in Tonga or Samoa, why do we care about the Tongan and Samoan national rugby league teams? Why are we so desperate for national teams representing rugby league nations that do not exist? It's perverse.

2 - Nevertheless, I'm not saying people can't move. Of course if a bloke grew up in Tonga/Samoa but had to move to make it in rugby league they would still be Tongan/Samoan nationals. Bit different if it was their grandparents who moved for work 60 years ago.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Piping hot take but I honestly reckon all this talk of "representing your parents" or "representing your culture" etc etc has kinda f**ked it all up and confused everyone.

Representative sports are about representing where you're from. That's why State of Origin resonates. It's not about heritage passed down through the generations, it's about your friends from down the street.

(yes I know this is real white guy coloniser nuclear family no whakapapa type thinking)

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

Piping hot take but I honestly reckon all this talk of "representing your parents" or "representing your culture" etc etc has kinda f**ked it all up and confused everyone.

Representative sports are about representing where you're from. That's why State of Origin resonates. It's not about heritage passed down through the generations, it's about your friends from down the street.

People raised in mixed cultures can quite comfortably feel deep connections with both and a desire to represent both.

Understandably that’s not always easy to grasp for anyone who hasn’t lived it, but that doesn’t make it fked up.