14 Team SL and Merged Championship?

[Taking The Two]

Catalans have won a Cup, been to another cup final and been in two GF’s. Their attendance is at the top end of the averages, their hospitality is sold out every game, they spend to the cap annually, they’ve debuted roughly 85 French eligible players in 20 years, taken games to Carcassonne, Narbonne, Canet and Barcelona twice, the most recent leading to the biggest Super League attendance of all time and heading to Paris in 2026. They are a behemoth in comparison to a number of their counterparts in Super League. They’ve won more since their inclusion than Wakefield, Cas, Salford, Huddersfield, London and as much as Leigh and Hull KR have.

The insular thinking is down to chairmen moaning about away tickets and pies sold. Derek Beaumont, lead airhead behind this change we’ve just had, has regular tweeted his disdain for Catalans for these very reasons. I’m sure walk ups and hospitality is probably effected by playing Catalans, they’ve only been going 20 years so rivalry and hostility for games isn’t quite there with most but a club relying on away tickets for revenue is ridiculous. If clubs cannot fill their stands for their own home games, that’s on those clubs, their marketing and nothing to do with the away side.

It was said that their inclusion would lead to a better French team and that hasn’t happened. I don’t know if that’s down to the Federation more than Catalans but ultimately, Catalans exist to win their games and attempt to win trophies, so I don’t know if you can blame France being poor internationally purely at the door of Catalans Dragons.

 

[BODISGOD]

They also generate zero tv money and away travelling support is important for the finances, whether you like it or not.

Your core argument here is centred around tv, why the free pass here?

None of the benefits accrue to heartland clubs beyond indirect fan benefits of getting to travel there.

It is a reasonable question for Chairmen and CEOs to ask 20 years down the line.

A full review should be taken. The player production could indeed be just the minimum thing needed to keep things alive there. The “prize” should really be a competitive French international team where fixtures can be monetised and the benefits flow into English RL broadly. It doesn’t appear to be the case. Perhaps that means another French team is needed and the existing clubs need to swallow that?

 

[Taking The Two]

They also generate zero tv money and away travelling support is important for the finances, whether you like it or not.

Your core argument here is centred around tv, why the free pass here?

None of the benefits accrue to heartland clubs beyond indirect fan benefits of getting to travel there.

It is a reasonable question for Chairmen and CEOs to ask 20 years down the line.

A full review should be taken. The player production could indeed be just the minimum thing needed to keep things alive there. The “prize” should really be a competitive French international team where fixtures can be monetised and the benefits flow into English RL broadly. It doesn’t appear to be the case. Perhaps that means another French team is needed and the existing clubs need to swallow that?

If your business model is centred around away fans and therefore not growing your fanbase or filling your stands in your stadium, something is seriously wrong. Saints have given out free tickets to emergency services staff and staff of the clubs major sponsor, Home Bargains, Wigan have turned their home games vs Catalans into events such as Pride Day a couple of years ago. If teams cannot be creative to sell tickets to their fans, they shouldn’t be taken seriously. Clubs have to build their fanbases and if they’re just plain lazy and think “ah, well just sell 500 tickets to the away fans”, it’s an indictment on them as a club and not Catalans. There’s something like 11 amateur/junior clubs in St Helens and 100 free tickets for each club is 1,100 extra on the gate. These kids are the future, get them involved and get them interested early on. Their parents in for £10 and they’ll do £20+ on food, drink and in the club shop and it’s already more lucrative than 100 away fans from an English side.

Rather than denigrating Catalans for not bringing a TV deal (I mean does Cas provide much towards the TV deal?), why aren’t we asking why there isn’t a TV deal? Are we providing enough entertainment? Are we a good watch? Are we pushing out good content? Are we interesting enough to maintain an audience? Is the product onfield interesting and exciting? We have had an ever decreasing TV deal with each passing negotiation phase. Why aren’t we reviewing everyone’s positions in the completion? If Catalans aren’t bringing a TV deal are Huddersfield, Warrington and Hull FC much better for being a part of a decreasing TV deal? Are York, London or Bradford going to be bringing a swell of revenue into the sport in the form of TV deals, subscriptions and national media coverage? No, they’re not. Swapping out Catalans and barring Toulouse from any conversation about Super League and making the comp worse off by bringing in inferior teams won’t solve the problem.

 

[BODISGOD]

If your business model is centred around away fans and therefore not growing your fanbase or filling your stands in your stadium, something is seriously wrong. Saints have given out free tickets to emergency services staff and staff of the clubs major sponsor, Home Bargains, Wigan have turned their home games vs Catalans into events such as Pride Day a couple of years ago. If teams cannot be creative to sell tickets to their fans, they shouldn’t be taken seriously. Clubs have to build their fanbases and if they’re just plain lazy and think “ah, well just sell 500 tickets to the away fans”, it’s an indictment on them as a club and not Catalans. There’s something like 11 amateur/junior clubs in St Helens and 100 free tickets for each club is 1,100 extra on the gate. These kids are the future, get them involved and get them interested early on. Their parents in for £10 and they’ll do £20+ on food, drink and in the club shop and it’s already more lucrative than 100 away fans from an English side.

Rather than denigrating Catalans for not bringing a TV deal (I mean does Cas provide much towards the TV deal?), why aren’t we asking why there isn’t a TV deal? Are we providing enough entertainment? Are we a good watch? Are we pushing out good content? Are we interesting enough to maintain an audience? Is the product onfield interesting and exciting? We have had an ever decreasing TV deal with each passing negotiation phase. Why aren’t we reviewing everyone’s positions in the completion? If Catalans aren’t bringing a TV deal are Huddersfield, Warrington and Hull FC much better for being a part of a decreasing TV deal? Are York, London or Bradford going to be bringing a swell of revenue into the sport in the form of TV deals, subscriptions and national media coverage? No, they’re not. Swapping out Catalans and barring Toulouse from any conversation about Super League and making the comp worse off by bringing in inferior teams won’t solve the problem.

There’s a limit to these local areas, that’s reality. Improving facilities and fan experience for Super League should be a prerequisite but away fans are part and parcel of most domestic sports leagues.

Why would it not be part of your model when so many clubs are within striking difference of one another?

I’m not “denigrating” Catalans. I’m talking reality here. You go on about the importance of the Sky relationship but then ignore that Catalan add nothing to the tv pie other than participation. To use your line- after 20 years is that credible?

If you take even one of the stronger clubs in Leeds in a large metro which about £11.5m in turnover, nearly 10% of that comes from tv money. You add in away supporters and you are probably conservatively talking about another 5% or £500k (say 20k away supporters @ £20 plus food and drink sales). These are not insignificant monies for even Leeds but it becomes more acute the lower down and less strong clubs. You’re probably talking closer to 25% for many of them.

Listen I think if the case was that the Catalans were bringing in their own tv money and the other clubs took the hit on the attendances that it would be reasonable to bag the owners.

I’m not for a second saying to kick them out but the language used here is often simplistic and misses the business realities.

 

[Perth Red]

Interview with Dereck Beaumont

 

[Perth Red]

A professional league in France isn’t nonsense or pie in the sky if there’s money behind it.

And thats why its pie in the sky. Most French clubs are barely above amateur and have little funding. It would need seismic change in the sports landscape in France. and that's just wishful thinking.

 

[RL The greatest game]

For those British fans of the game who think the NRL is going to rescue your Super League competition you are sadly mistaken.
Certain clubs need to get serious about junior development and stop taking the easy option of over the hill NRL players and players who were never good enough for the NRL.
Junior development is the future of British Rugby League not NRL rejects

 

[Perth Red]

For those British fans of the game who think the NRL is going to rescue your Super League competition you are sadly mistaken.
Certain clubs need to get serious about junior development and stop taking the easy option of over the hill NRL players and players who were never good enough for the NRL.
Junior development is the future of British Rugby League not NRL rejects

Whilst I dont disagree with you, to play devils advocate and from a purely commercial position, for every 30 jnrs you spend 5 years money developing you might get one or two come through to first grade. Or you can go and buy an established first grader from NRL for a fraction the price. I dont like it but I can see why clubs with not much money do it. Sl clubs dont have the benefits of a large central grant millions over the cap, or pokies to fund Jnrs.

 

[Perth Red]

If your business model is centred around away fans and therefore not growing your fanbase or filling your stands in your stadium, something is seriously wrong. Saints have given out free tickets to emergency services staff and staff of the clubs major sponsor, Home Bargains, Wigan have turned their home games vs Catalans into events such as Pride Day a couple of years ago. If teams cannot be creative to sell tickets to their fans, they shouldn’t be taken seriously. Clubs have to build their fanbases and if they’re just plain lazy and think “ah, well just sell 500 tickets to the away fans”, it’s an indictment on them as a club and not Catalans. There’s something like 11 amateur/junior clubs in St Helens and 100 free tickets for each club is 1,100 extra on the gate. These kids are the future, get them involved and get them interested early on. Their parents in for £10 and they’ll do £20+ on food, drink and in the club shop and it’s already more lucrative than 100 away fans from an English side.

Rather than denigrating Catalans for not bringing a TV deal (I mean does Cas provide much towards the TV deal?), why aren’t we asking why there isn’t a TV deal? Are we providing enough entertainment? Are we a good watch? Are we pushing out good content? Are we interesting enough to maintain an audience? Is the product onfield interesting and exciting? We have had an ever decreasing TV deal with each passing negotiation phase. Why aren’t we reviewing everyone’s positions in the completion? If Catalans aren’t bringing a TV deal are Huddersfield, Warrington and Hull FC much better for being a part of a decreasing TV deal? Are York, London or Bradford going to be bringing a swell of revenue into the sport in the form of TV deals, subscriptions and national media coverage? No, they’re not. Swapping out Catalans and barring Toulouse from any conversation about Super League and making the comp worse off by bringing in inferior teams won’t solve the problem.

Like it or not its been stated Catalans where admitted to an English Comp for three key reasons:
1. To genertae revenue from a French TV deal
2. To improve the international team and give England a northern competitor
3. To provide fans with a new experience

Catalans have done very well to build a viable and competitive club and number 3 has def been met. For the sake of French RL they need to stay but I totally get why owners who are spending millions on their clubs due to grant shortfalls are questioning the commercial sense of them taking a spot.

 

[RL The greatest game]

Whilst I dont disagree with you, to play devils advocate and from a purely commercial position, for every 30 jnrs you spend 5 years money developing you might get one or two come through to first grade. Or you can go and buy an established first grader from NRL for a fraction the price. I dont like it but I can see why clubs with not much money do it. Sl clubs dont have the benefits of a large central grant millions over the cap, or pokies to fund Jnrs.

An established NRL first grader will only go to Super League at the end of his playing career to top up his pension pot if no other NRL clubs wants him.
Junior development is the future of British Rugby League.

 

[Perth Red]

An established NRL first grader will only go to Super League at the end of his playing career to top up his pension pot if no other NRL clubs wants him.
Junior development is the future of British Rugby League.

Not really relevant. We've seen players in late 20's early 30's come over for a variety of reasons and have added good value to SL. Some are total duds (which makes you wonder how they were long term NRL players!) but plenty are good and bring up the standard of SL. Like I said Id much rather see a local lad pull on my clubs shirt but I can also understand the commercial reality for owners who dont have pokies to fund Jnrs. Im not sad to see the likes of Hiku, JWH and May helping us win trophies!

The other interesting factor is the Polynesian and Maori DNA one. Reality is their body types are much better suited to RL hence why they are so dominant in NRL. Cant blame English teams for wanting some of that same as Australian clubs do. If I was a coined SL owner I'd have an academy in NZ as well!

 

[Taking The Two]

Like it or not its been stated Catalans where admitted to an English Comp for three key reasons:
1. To genertae revenue from a French TV deal
2. To improve the international team and give England a northern competitor
3. To provide fans with a new experience

Catalans have done very well to build a viable and competitive club and number 3 has def been met. For the sake of French RL they need to stay but I totally get why owners who are spending millions on their clubs due to grant shortfalls are questioning the commercial sense of them taking a spot.

So they’ve done two out of three. Great, let’s get on to all the shit clubs in England now.

Over 85 debutants from France in 20 years that almost certainly wouldn’t have played in Super League otherwise and a new experience boxed off. Laying the blame of the French Federation for being crap at the door of the Catalans club is ridiculously short sighted. Let’s have a dig at Cas, Hull KR and Salford then. No World Cup wins in 50 years despite the easiest route to the final of all time in 2023. Those clubs who produce very little academy players should be on the chopping block.

 

[Perth Red]

So they’ve done two out of three. Great, let’s get on to all the shit clubs in England now.

Over 85 debutants from France in 20 years that almost certainly wouldn’t have played in Super League otherwise and a new experience boxed off. Laying the blame of the French Federation for being crap at the door of the Catalans club is ridiculously short sighted. Let’s have a dig at Cas, Hull KR and Salford then. No World Cup wins in 50 years despite the easiest route to the final of all time in 2023. Those clubs who produce very little academy players should be on the chopping block.

No, they've achieved 1 out of 3.
Nice strawman but you miss the point, its an English comp and they were invited in to play in it. They were invited in (and have been given over 20 million pounds of English games money) but havent achieved two key reasons they were admitted.

I dont think 2. is fair, one club cant make a country competitive but the financial drain with no payback is the big one that has got Sl questioning the merits. Now sure you can argue 'but what about Cas or Huddersfield' or whoever, but they weren't invited into a foreign comp on the proviso they would pay their way.
I guess if you want to go off academies then you'll be all in on Bradford being admitted given how strong their production line has been during the SL era?

 

[Taking The Two]

No, they've achieved 1 out of 3.
Nice strawman but you miss the point, its an English comp and they were invited in to play in it. They were invited in (and have been given over 20 million pounds of English games money) but havent achieved two key reasons they were admitted.

I dont think 2. is fair, one club cant make a country competitive but the financial drain with no payback is the big one that has got Sl questioning the merits. Now sure you can argue 'but what about Cas or Huddersfield' or whoever, but they weren't invited into a foreign comp on the proviso they would pay their way.
I guess if you want to go off academies then you'll be all in on Bradford being admitted given how strong their production line has been during the SL era?

What is a club to do about their national side? They’ve debuted more than 80 French eligible players, some have played across the competition and many have made upwards of 50 appearances and others over 100. If their Federation is appointing people like Laurent Fraysinnous to lead the national team and the national team aren’t achieving results onfield, that cannot be laid at the door of a domestic side. They’re doing their end by producing French players, it’s over to the Federation itself to give those players the tools and tactics when playing for the French national side. How bad would a French national team without a French Super League team be? Without 80+ players having access to playing elite rugby league in this hemisphere, they would be of an even worse standard, likely part-time still knocking around Albi and Pia Donkeys and would have almost certainly been cut from the international game alongside nations like Ireland, Wales, Scotland etc. For me, they’ve upheld their end of the bargain by producing players and exposing them to Super League, if the French Federation cannot do their end of the job, that’s on them as an association. It’s like saying all the English clubs are failing because England are crap when the reality is The RFL appointed Wane and kept him on despite an absolute debacle in a World Cup that presented the easiest route to a final of all time for an English side. It’s a strawman to be blaming Catalans for a Federation that they do not directly control.

It’s just a sport that firmly stacks things up against anyone a bit different and that doesn’t come from a shit town across a stretch of motorway. Catalans are a behemoth in rugby league terms here, they’ve got one of the best production lines in the game, they’ve created the biggest attendance in the competitions history and won as much or more than half of the competition since their inception. To further stack things against them, based on criteria from 20+ years ago when the games governance and outlook was vastly different from what it is now, is borderline insanity.

As for Bradford, that’s the biggest strawman argument going from you. Bradford have a functioning academy that produces for them now and an academy licence, that’s a positive in their box. Aside from that and attendances (relative to the competition that they’re in), that’s all they’ve got going for them and factoring in their recent history of bankruptcy (again), being unable to afford to play at a stadium owned by The RFL and then their own board of directors rattling the begging bowl to keep the club going less than one year ago, it’s a shallow argument to bring Bradford in.

 

[BODISGOD]

They’ve achieved 1 out of 3. France are not competitive enough to be a commercial draw. That’s a fact. Now it might be the case that one club isn’t enough, it probably isn’t let’s be realistic.

But if to get to competitiveness it requires another French club that is a draw on the finances, then it is again reasonable to ask the question on viability.

Waiving away the money point is just nonsense, particularly when on the other side of your mouth you are talking about it being so important.

 

[Perth Red]

What is a club to do about their national side? They’ve debuted more than 80 French eligible players, some have played across the competition and many have made upwards of 50 appearances and others over 100. If their Federation is appointing people like Laurent Fraysinnous to lead the national team and the national team aren’t achieving results onfield, that cannot be laid at the door of a domestic side. They’re doing their end by producing French players, it’s over to the Federation itself to give those players the tools and tactics when playing for the French national side. How bad would a French national team without a French Super League team be? Without 80+ players having access to playing elite rugby league in this hemisphere, they would be of an even worse standard, likely part-time still knocking around Albi and Pia Donkeys and would have almost certainly been cut from the international game alongside nations like Ireland, Wales, Scotland etc. For me, they’ve upheld their end of the bargain by producing players and exposing them to Super League, if the French Federation cannot do their end of the job, that’s on them as an association. It’s like saying all the English clubs are failing because England are crap when the reality is The RFL appointed Wane and kept him on despite an absolute debacle in a World Cup that presented the easiest route to a final of all time for an English side. It’s a strawman to be blaming Catalans for a Federation that they do not directly control.

It’s just a sport that firmly stacks things up against anyone a bit different and that doesn’t come from a shit town across a stretch of motorway. Catalans are a behemoth in rugby league terms here, they’ve got one of the best production lines in the game, they’ve created the biggest attendance in the competitions history and won as much or more than half of the competition since their inception. To further stack things against them, based on criteria from 20+ years ago when the games governance and outlook was vastly different from what it is now, is borderline insanity.

As for Bradford, that’s the biggest strawman argument going from you. Bradford have a functioning academy that produces for them now and an academy licence, that’s a positive in their box. Aside from that and attendances (relative to the competition that they’re in), that’s all they’ve got going for them and factoring in their recent history of bankruptcy (again), being unable to afford to play at a stadium owned by The RFL and then their own board of directors rattling the begging bowl to keep the club going less than one year ago, it’s a shallow argument to bring Bradford in.

Hey you was the one that said clubs without good academies shouldn’t be in SL, ergo I presumed this was a key criteria for you and therefore you’d approve of Bradford given how productive their academy has been, even when not in SL?

 

[Taking The Two]

Hey you was the one that said clubs without good academies shouldn’t be in SL, ergo I presumed this was a key criteria for you and therefore you’d approve of Bradford given how productive their academy has been, even when not in SL?

Academies and pathways (men’s, woman’s, wheelchair, PDRL) should be a key factor in teams inclusion in the league, not the only factor, however. It’s clearly a positive for Bradford (as it was for London before they scrapped theirs) but I think there are other factors that count against Bradford, such as their stadium and recent financial history, certainly compared to some other teams.