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1st Test: New Zealand v Sri Lanka at Dunedin on Dec 10-14, 2015

Meth

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;-);-)

We're well set though. We just had had a 3 Test series against a bunch of nuffies ;-)

I alluded to this the other day. I think the series was immeasurably more helpful to NZ than it was Australia. We learnt plenty about where we were. Australia learnt very little. And what's ahead of you? Tests against WI (worse than us), a limited over series v India, a couple of Tests in NZ, T20 World Cup, a ODI series with SA and WI, an away series v Sri Lanka?really, Australia might not have an opportunity to get a proper gauge on where they are at and how they are going until later in 2016 when South Africa come over.
 

ANTiLAG

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I am amazed that noone mentions Jeet Raval.

Brownlie is great against seamers, poor against good spinners, so moved to opener (like many before him). Rutherford has failed so much. Yet Raval just scores runs. Domestic level. Gets runs. NZA level gets runs.

Raval should be in the debate, as should Brownlie. Heck, there could be a way of getting them both in the top 6., forgetting the all rounder, and playing ever fit Wagner as the third seamer. I worry that the Tim and Trent just like their mate Doug more than they do like Mr Wagner and that this is influencing team selection of Doug and Henry being chosen ahead of Neil. I hope that is wrong. But NZC have stated they hope to turn Doug into an allrounder. But he bats like a dork with his mates in the tail after playing straight early.

Alternatively, Santner could play 6 and Milne come into the team as fourth seamer in Craig's spot with Bracewell.

I think we need more batting, but Santner is an interesting prospect having had a good debut.
 
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TheParraboy

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Might have something to do with Australia, India and England relentlessly circle jerking each other. The rest of us have to get a game somewhere.

Why downgrade the Australian tests 3 to 2 then?

We may be jerking off (CA not the fans) with the poms and India, but you lot (NZ Cricket not the fans) seem to enjoy wanking alone :lol:

The comments in brackets were for JJ soley so he could get some clarification :sarcasm:
 

JJ

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Raval has been mentioned, but never picked... seems weird, pretty decent first class record, averages 40+...

Thanks for the clarity Parra :thumb
 

Meth

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Why downgrade the Australian tests 3 to 2 then?

We may be jerking off (CA not the fans) with the poms and India, but you lot (NZ Cricket not the fans) seem to enjoy wanking alone :lol:

The comments in brackets were for JJ soley so he could get some clarification :sarcasm:

I'd suspect it comes down to money and the T20 world cup. Personally, I hate T20 so I'd rather have 3 Tests for sure.
 

ANTiLAG

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Raval has been mentioned, but never picked... seems weird, pretty decent first class record, averages 40+...

Thanks for the clarity Parra :thumb

Bracewell and even Nicholls gets mentioned ahead of him. But how does Rutherford continually remain in the running?

We have a second generation of Bracewells as ordinary as the first generation. Same with the Rutherfords, Ken Rutherford averaged 27.08 in tests, and now generation 2 Hamish is as ordinary with a 26.98. Latham gen 2 is improving. So if gen 2 is the same or better, as seen with Latham and Hadlee, where is the gen 2 Crowe and gen 3 Hadlees instead of the gen 2 Rutherfords and Bracewells.
 

JJ

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It will be Williamson, kind of hoping McCullum sticks around a bit longer, but financially probably makes sense for him not too

I just don't want Williamson rushed into the role, but he doesn't seem the type to be affected by pressure - there's nobody else. McCullum has his faults, but we start to look a bit thin without him
 

ANTiLAG

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It will be Williamson, kind of hoping McCullum sticks around a bit longer, but financially probably makes sense for him not too

I just don't want Williamson rushed into the role, but he doesn't seem the type to be affected by pressure - there's nobody else. McCullum has his faults, but we start to look a bit thin without him

I like the fact that he has led some ODIs in Africa and the UAE. And for the most part his batting was not affected. I am concerned that captaincy may well may weigh down our introverted dorky batting superstar. Tendulkar was not required to be captian for too long, if Kane stops piling on the runs - give the captaincy to perhaps BJ Watling for test and ODI to someone else.

Tom Latham has captaincy experience for Canterbury. Who else in the squad is a leader assuming no Ross gen 2?
 

JJ

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I like the fact that he has led some ODIs in Africa and the UAE. And for the most part his batting was not affected. I am concerned that captaincy may well may weigh down our introverted dorky batting superstar. Tendulkar was not required to be captian for too long, if Kane stops piling on the runs - give the captaincy to perhaps BJ Watling for test and ODI to someone else.

Tom Latham has captaincy experience for Canterbury. Who else in the squad is a leader assuming no Ross gen 2?

Watling's one I didn't think of...

Williamson is the captain in waiting, Southee (apparently) is someone who is a leader.

At least Williamson won't face what Crowe did, in that he's solely responsible for how the team goes - the bowling attack is young and talented, I firmly believe Latham has a future, notwithstanding his Australian series Watling is world class, Taylor, I think, has a few years left, and the all-rounders are young and promising. Just leaves opener #2 (imagine how good Kane might be if he wasn't effectively opening the innings on most occasions), and a middle order bat - there is some talent about, but selectors seem strangely focused on Guptill (on the basis of his ODI record which is bloated by dominating rubbish teams and England - his record against Aust, RSA, Sri Lanka and India is awful) and Rutherford (on the basis of his test debut) - yeah, I am really annoyed about the 2nd opener :lol: Seriously, someone should look in depth at Guptill's record, he simply has never scored runs against any decent attack aside from England
 

ANTiLAG

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Southee is not a leader. He is too laconic and care free with his batting approach. He still thinks he is the attack leader, but Boult has emerged as the better strike bowler. The captain does not need to be the best batsman or bowler, but merely know and perform their role well. This helps them lead and helps the team follow. Southee does not know his role nor perform the role he thinks that he has. Southee is a great fielder, and a good bowler. He may get the world record for 6's hit. But he does not display captaincy material to me. His batting is too carefree to captain. Its why Afridi quit test captaincy and test matches altogether. Southee may be more fun on an evening out than the rest of the team. But I prefer NZ had a bright captain with strong leadership skills.

Latham does display captaincy skills long term. But he is quite young at the moment and fielding at short leg. Watling is a leader. He is a gritty key component of the team. But wicket keepers are often not keen on captaining as well.

Guptill is testing everyone's patience now. Even his keenest fans such as myself who just wished he would play test cricket at a SR 75-85 and play his shots in a Sehwag and Warner manner. I am starting to think he is too dumb to work out his test game in the way he plays limited over cricket. His test SR of 43 is Geoff Boycott slow. But Boycott could bat all day. His ODI SR of over 80 is how he needs to play the red ball and get enough runs to be effective and contribute well to the team. I do not understand why he cannot work that out.
 
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TheParraboy

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Both Kholi and Steve Smith became test captains at around ages 25-26.

Kane Williamson is 25, and played more tests than the two above

I would have thought he is the logical next captain for the black caps
 

ANTiLAG

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Both Kholi and Steve Smith became test captains at around ages 25-26.

Kane Williamson is 25, and played more tests than the two above

I would have thought he is the logical next captain for the black caps

Kholi and Smith are extroverts who presumably desired the job.

Introverts can of course lead and do an excellent job of it.

But leadership and captaincy is not for everyone. I do not understand the philosophy of the best player in the team should be the next captain. Many great players were not made captain or got rid of the captaincy so as to perform better. Many performed better with captaincy. New Zealand does not produce anywhere near the same number of world class players that India or Australia do. Williamson is different Smith and Kohli. Go back 40 years, NZs only world class players have been Hadlee, Turner, Crowe, Cairns, Bond and Williamson (soon to be joined by Boult hopefully). There is a long history of tension and unsavoury politics and incidents involving those players with NZ Cricket and NZ public (bar Williamson). You may argue to add Vettori in a limited overs sense to the world class player list. That may seem like a lot. But think about Indian and Australian greats in the same time period. Its not. Its not something New Zealand cricket regularly produce, we saviour and rejoice our Bruce Edgars, John Wrights, Mark Richardsons, and Chris Martins. The far less talented toiler Kiwi bloke is much more loved by the NZC administration and wider fan base. BMac has endured endless criticism for his approach and captaincy, despite leading NZ from the bottom to second and third for a whee while. World class cricketers do not fit the NZC mould. They are so rare. They are misfits. Making one captain? Novel - especially for one who is introverted. He will be blamed for not leading the team ont he field, even if tactically sublime and pulling in creamers at gully. How much better could Flemming have been as a batsman if not captain? Interesting thought.

Where India and Australia are no doubt incredibly passionate about the support of the national game and the the team that represents them, New Zealand main sport is Rugby where the All Blacks are mroe dominant than the Manchester United, Lakers or Yankees. It skews the mainstream's approach to national sports. While we don't burn effigies in the street of cricket players, we also do not pay millions of a dollars a year for the job. BMac gets $400,000 from NZ Cricket if he plays all games. Our media and personal can savage our world class players and captains. In the IPL world, I'm not sure KW needs that for $400,000.00, even if does not impact on his international run scoring game - which is by far the greater concern.

With no Ryder in the team, and god knows who will replace McCullum, maybe Nicholls who may fail, then M Bracewell, who may fail, the middle order of New Zealand is going to be incredibly fragile in the future bar Watling. That makes it even more imperative that Kane continues to score mega runs and nothing should be put on his shoulders that reduces his run scoring output.
 
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ANTiLAG

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I'll be stunned if it isn't Williamson.

I think we all think he is the short odds favourite given his captaincy in the UAE and Africa in the ODIs.

What if his forms slumps as a result or the team does not perform well when he is captain?
 

Twizzle

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I think Big Mac is a good leader but not a good tactician, however than can be a learning process for some one like Williamson.
 

JJ

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Kholi and Smith are extroverts who presumably desired the job.

Introverts can of course lead and do an excellent job of it.

But leadership and captaincy is not for everyone. I do not understand the philosophy of the best player in the team should be the next captain. Many great players were not made captain or got rid of the captaincy so as to perform better. Many performed better with captaincy. New Zealand does not produce anywhere near the same number of world class players that India or Australia do. Williamson is different Smith and Kohli. Go back 40 years, NZs only world class players have been Hadlee, Turner, Crowe, Cairns, Bond and Williamson (soon to be joined by Boult hopefully). There is a long history of tension and unsavoury politics and incidents involving those players with NZ Cricket and NZ public (bar Williamson). You may argue to add Vettori in a limited overs sense to the world class player list. That may seem like a lot. But think about Indian and Australian greats in the same time period. Its not. Its not something New Zealand cricket regularly produce, we saviour and rejoice our Bruce Edgars, John Wrights, Mark Richardsons, and Chris Martins. The far less talented toiler Kiwi bloke is much more loved by the NZC administration and wider fan base. BMac has endured endless criticism for his approach and captaincy, despite leading NZ from the bottom to second and third for a whee while. World class cricketers do not fit the NZC mould. They are so rare. They are misfits. Making one captain? Novel - especially for one who is introverted. He will be blamed for not leading the team ont he field, even if tactically sublime and pulling in creamers at gully. How much better could Flemming have been as a batsman if not captain? Interesting thought.

Where India and Australia are no doubt incredibly passionate about the support of the national game and the the team that represents them, New Zealand main sport is Rugby where the All Blacks are mroe dominant than the Manchester United, Lakers or Yankees. It skews the mainstream's approach to national sports. While we don't burn effigies in the street of cricket players, we also do not pay millions of a dollars a year for the job. BMac gets $400,000 from NZ Cricket if he plays all games. Our media and personal can savage our world class players and captains. In the IPL world, I'm not sure KW needs that for $400,000.00, even if does not impact on his international run scoring game - which is by far the greater concern.

With no Ryder in the team, and god knows who will replace McCullum, maybe Nicholls who may fail, then M Bracewell, who may fail, the middle order of New Zealand is going to be incredibly fragile in the future bar Watling. That makes it even more imperative that Kane continues to score mega runs and nothing should be put on his shoulders that reduces his run scoring output.

Few more world class players than that IMO, despite the recent mess Cairns junior certainly was plus several keepers (Smith, Parore, McCullum, Watling), Bruce Taylor albeit for not long enough (very talented all rounders are seldom an issue, perhaps because cricket is more a hobby), Richardson and Wright were world class IMO, not sure which Reid you meant, JF? Both were, and many from early when we seldom played tests.

On current players, Ben Smith looks good ever time I see him.

Guptill isn't frustrating, he just simply isn't good against good bowlers, in any form of cricket
 

ANTiLAG

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Few more world class players than that IMO, despite the recent mess Cairns junior certainly was plus several keepers (Smith, Parore, McCullum, Watling), Bruce Taylor albeit for not long enough (very talented all rounders are seldom an issue, perhaps because cricket is more a hobby), Richardson and Wright were world class IMO, not sure which Reid you meant, JF? Both were, and many from early when we seldom played tests.

Richardson world class? Test cricket only batsman in an era of Smith, Sehwag, Hayden and Langer? Vaughan, Gayle, Anwar, Trescothick and probably Jayasuriya leave him for dust if limited overs cricket included as well. Mark Richardson averaging 22 against Australia and 34 against South Africa? Richardson is much loved for what he achieved with the limited talent at his disposal. World class? Or a celebrated battler who successfully punched above his weight albeit dour and renown as boring as he ground out occupying the crease. 4 centuries is a stretch to be considered for a world class career as an opening batsman. His numbers are more the tier below world class openers.

John Wright world class? He does not even average over 40. He averages 37.8. That is not Haynes, Greenige, Gavaskar, Taylor, Boon, or Sidhu, Its more Mudassar Nazar without the bowling.

Watling is well on his way to being world class, but he wouldn't make the Pakistani team any time soon, would he? Disagree with Smith, Parore and McCullum being labelled 'world class', too. They are a mile away from Rod Marsh, Alan Knott, Bruce Taylor, Des Amiss (before their time, but the point remains valid), Adam Gilchrist, Andy Flower, Kumar Sangakarra, Jack Russel, Ian Healey, Alec Stewart discussions.

Andrew Jones would be the next closest player to have been worthy of being deemed world class of that era in my opinion.
 
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