2009 - please explain

[brendothejet]

To All,

Whilst I try and keep abreast of expansion as best Ican the 2009 SL is an area id love some mroe info on.

I understand they are looking to restructure.

can someone give me a bit more info?
Ta.

 

[bowes]

No, to be brutally honest. There's nothing definite.

There will be 14 franchises awarded, so it's not simply a case of adding 2 teams. Toulouse are applying and have a fair chance of getting a franchise, but talks of Wales or a 2nd London team is rubbish.

 

[JonG]

No, to be brutally honest. There's nothing definite.

There will be 14 franchises awarded, so it's not simply a case of adding 2 teams. Toulouse are applying and have a fair chance of getting a franchise, but talks of Wales or a 2nd London team is rubbish.

Why is Wales rubbish?

They have a good stadium, rich owner, beaten London Skolars in only their 2nd game ever, good catchment area, and more.

 

[brendothejet]

So if they are handing out 14 franchises do all clubs have to apply, including the big guns?

 

[JonG]

So if they are handing out 14 franchises do all clubs have to apply, including the big guns?

Basically thats the case.

If the current 12 are up to standard they will remain in. Then the next 2 strongest candidates will be admitted.

This has forced saints, cas, leigh, salford, wakey all to start planning for a new stadium, or they could be up sh*t creek.

I believe they are looking at a 14 league consisting of

Leeds
Saints
Bradford
Wigan
Hull
Warrington
Salford
Catalans
Toulouse
Crusaders
Castelford
Huddersfield
Harlequins
Widnes/Leigh/Wakey

 

[LeagueXIII]

Leigh's stadium is just about complete and Saints have unveiled plans for a 18,200 stadium, for some reason it is going to be oval shaped.

http://www.leighsportsvillage.co.uk/facilities.htm

 

[bartman]

The franchises will be assessed every three years, won't they? Something about still leaving the door open for ambitious and well performing lower league clubs and being able to deal with franchises that aren't doing to well...

The battle will definitely be on to try and not get relegated at the end of this season or at the end of 2007. Whoever ends up in that boat will probably be at a distinct disadvantage while the exact details are being considered and face an uphill climb to get (back) in the 14? They'll be out of sight out of mind and up against other NL1 sides vying for promotion (Hull KR, Leigh, Widnes) as well as against outside contenders like a second french team and Celtic Crusaders (if they don't come through promotion as they plan).

Stadiums, on field performance, community development, crowds, finances and other back room functions are likely to all form the basis for consideration. As well as who the powers that be want to secretly see make or drop out of the top flite ;-)

My fearless prediction for the 2009-2012 14 teams:
St Helens
Leeds
Wigan
Bradford
Hull
London/Harlequins
Catalans
Warrington
Salford
Huddersfield *
Tolouse
Celtic Crusaders
Wakefield/Castleford *
Widnes/Leigh/Whitehaven *

(* in danger of replacement in 2013 by teams from Doncaster, Hull KR Leigh/Whitehaven or York)

 

[Fairleigh Good!]

It will never happen.

Come 2009 the majority of the league will be the same and the crowds will be roughly the same, possibly bar one or two boom teams which get new stadiums.

There will not be 14 quality franchises in 2009. More like 8 and the rest of the rabble being allowed in by default.

 

[terracesider]

Nobody really knows what is going to happen because, although Lewis made a lot of noise, he was short on detail and the people that really matter - the club chairmen - are not yet going public.

I suspect there will be a lot of horse trading behind closed doors and that Bartman is very close in suggesting that the new order will consist of "...who the powers that be want to secretly see make or drop out of the top flite."

 

[meltiger]

(* in danger of replacement in 2013 by teams from Doncaster, Hull KR Leigh/Whitehaven or York)

Just out of interest Bart, wouldn't a Wales team be a better idea than Hull KR?

I know they have alot of history, but with Hull already in the top flight (& staying there in your scenario), wouldn't it be a silly idea to promote KR to the top flight if going down the NRL road? (ie: I assume the lower leagues will be used essentially as feeders to the top flight as opposed to the current 2nd and 3rd divisions)

 

[meltiger]

Sorry Bart, didn't notice the Crusaders in your list.

I would still argue say a Widnes is of more value than Hull KR though?

 

[JonG]

Hull KR have got 2 things going for them

1) History
2) Good local derby.

However, with the new stance of the RFL being looking forward, rather than to past exploits, 1) can be discarded.

Hull is a RL city though, and could sustain 2 good sides.

Come 2009 I believe their will be roughly 18-20 sides with good bids trying to fill 14 places. hopefully this will mean that the standard is increased

Going on from my earlier thread, by 2009 the following teams should have sustainable bids for SL

Saints
Leeds
Bulls
Wigan
Hull
Warrington
Quins
Cats
Hudds
Salford
Wakey
Castleford
Widnes
Leigh
Hull KR
Halifax
Whitehaven
Celtic Crusaders
York
Toulouse

 

[terracesider]

Widnes can merge with Warrington

 

[bartman]

Sorry Bart, didn't notice the Crusaders in your list.

I would still argue say a Widnes is of more value than Hull KR though?

No worries, Celtic Crusaders are a cert I reckon.

I think the places in dispute may come down to which clubs are the more ambitious and organised about it, and can demonstrate off-field their abilities to operate a "successful franchise". The RFL will see value in stability, and ability to work toward being self-sustaining financially, as I think only three clubs turn a profit at the moment?

Widnes do have a lot going for them (stadium, fan base), especially so if they can get back up. But the reality is they will be up against ambitious clubs like Hull KR that have gone full time in NL1 to get into Superleague, and if any of the Cumbrian sides get serious about trying to take the step up. Though I also think Hull is a big enough city to support two top class league teams if it happens, and agree it has the potential to become a real league stronghold.

But it's all hypothetical and it will just depend on who the RFL wants most at the end of the day. And any heartlands area clubs that do get in for 2009 will have to make sure they stay in, as competition will come in the years after that from anyone that missed out, as well as ambitious clubs with plans like Doncaster and maybe York.

 

[bartman]

Come 2009 I believe their will be roughly 18-20 sides with good bids trying to fill 14 places. hopefully this will mean that the standard is increased

From that list I don't think York or Halifax will make it in time... they might be starters for 2013 though if someone isn't cutting it then.

 

[JonG]

No worries, Celtic Crusaders are a cert I reckon.

I think the places in dispute may come down to which clubs are the more ambitious and organised about it, and can demonstrate off-field their abilities to operate a "successful franchise". The RFL will see value in stability, and ability to work toward being self-sustaining financially, as I think only three clubs turn a profit at the moment?

Celtic Crusaders have a countdown to superleague on their website! Certainly know where they want to be come 2009

 

[brendothejet]

good on them. shows vision directionand drive.

 

[bowes]

Why is Wales rubbish?

They have a good stadium, rich owner, beaten London Skolars in only their 2nd game ever, good catchment area, and more.

I said it's rubbish that they'll get in in 2009. They may get in later, but not then. There's no chance of going from NL2 to SL in 3 seasons. They might make NL1 in that time, but Dewsbury and Workington are much better this year. I tip them for the playoffs, but not promotion.
I also don't think there can be the support for a SL club as the old Celtic Warriors RU never got crowds that would support a viable SL team.
Beating London Skolars, so what. The Skolars are huge favourites for bottom of NL2 again. If they hadn't beaten the Skolars they should be worried.

 

[bartman]

It's true the Crusdaers haven't played a decent team yet...

But with two promotion spots (one automatic for coming top and the other through playoffs) I think Celtic Crusaders are a very very good chance of going up in their first year. And remember they won't have to win NL1 in 2007 or 2008 to gain a Superleague franchise...

It's good they're ambitious, because I think that's one spot of the 14 teams that the RFL has writen in as a dead cert - all they have to do is have a better average crowd than London has had for years, and not rack up heaps of debt. Then come mid-2008 the expansion aspect will likely give them the argument for inclusion over some others, regardless of where they are placed in NL1 at the time.

 

[bowes]

There's not necessarily 2 spots, only one guaranteed, and no NL2 team has ever beaten the NL1 side in the playoffs, although it's been close the last 2 years.
Dewsbury and Workington are the top 2 easily, although Crusaders may finish 3rd, more likely about 6th.

They might go up 2nd or 3rd, but they'd need to be top half of NL1 in 2008 with 3000 crowds to even be considered, and that's not going to happen. I very much doubt they've been written in for 2009, although I think come 2012, they'll have a chance (might be before as I'm not sure if the first three years will be fixed teams or if that just applies to new teams).