2019 Crowd Watch

[Perth Red]

I can tell you that clubs absolutely under-report crowds- for this reason.

How do you save money on something already happened? Are you suggesting that as "13k" turned up for this game it means they automatically claim 13k will turn up for the next one? What if 20k do? The place would not be meeting OHS and other laws re security and policing. The contracts for these things are based on capacity, not on how many might turn up due to how many turned up last time.

One period where there did seem to be fudging going on was in the 2009-2012 seasons when crowds were reported significantly higher than periods either before or after.

 

[adamkungl]

Wouldnt make sense though as those things have to be put in place BEFORE the game, not after so reporting a crowd as lower after a game isnt going to help with those costs! I suspect unless you decide to close part of the stadium off and guarantee a lower max crowd level than capacity, all of these things are based on capacity numbers just in case everyone turns up?

My understanding is the police costs are paid before based on estimate numbers. If you consistently under-report you can consistently under-estimate.

 

[Perth Red]

Whilst a good crowd for a regional game that sunny coast game has been the Perth game for the last few years and has drawn crowds of around 20k a number of times. Moving it there will see a drop in crowd avg accordingly.

 

[Perth Red]

My understanding is the police costs are paid before based on estimate numbers. If you consistently under-report you can consistently under-estimate.

Hmm Im not sure 2k is going to make any difference in policing numbers is it? Its all speculation as it is impossible to prove and I very much doubt it is worth fudging it and running the risk of being found guilty of fraud.

 

[Frank Discussion]

Hmm Im not sure 2k is going to make any difference in policing numbers is it? Its all speculation as it is impossible to prove and I very much doubt it is worth fudging it and running the risk of being found guilty of fraud.

It is very different. Particularly when you are talking a small ground like Kogarah which has a direct line to the LAC. And it is hardly fraud.

Red, you are getting direct info here from someone with experience in game day management, I know you like to run on speculation- but just cop the tip and move on.

 

[Perth Red]

It is very different. Particularly when you are talking a small ground like Kogarah which has a direct line to the LAC. And it is hardly fraud.

Red, you are getting direct info here from someone with experience in game day management, I know you like to run on speculation- but just cop the tip and move on.

It is fraud, if you are claiming lower numbers to reduce policing and security requirements then that very much is fraudulent isnt it? If you have such experience how many less police officers do you need for a crowd of 13.5k over one of 15k?

Until its proven I will continue to have my doubts when people claim bigger or lower crowds than announced (not that I think its impossible, I know first hand that back i the day in England it wasnt unheard of for there to be cash only gates at challenge cup games to avoid paying income tax on some revenue!)

 

[Stallion]

It's basically fraud if they are. A big accusation against some NRL clubs if you are claiming they are not reporting genuine crowd numbers, if anything I could see them over inflating to look better but cant see much value in under reporting.

Interestingly : other codes are doing the overstating crowd number caper for public relations reasons.

 

[Stallion]

In this day and age what is "general advertising"?
Not many people read the paper anymore, and tv ads are expensive.
Radio is probably still a good one, but then lots of people just play songs of their phones in the car now

Billboards? Flyers? Door knocking?
If you sign up for them or are a member every club should be sending emails

Social media "isn't the be all and end all" but these days it probably is the most important/viable

Viable to existing fans in the know. The cream and growth is to be gained via general advertising of such deals to the greater market. Insular exposure is gained through social media . External and more growth related exposure is gained via general advertising or publicity. I see the socal media point however but added fans and greater will general public awareness will be more likely through general publicity and advertising mechanisms.

 

[Hank_Scorpio]

Interestingly : other codes are doing the overstating crowd number caper for public relations reasons.

You know this to be factual, or are you stating your opinion as fact?

 

[Shark62]

You know this to be factual, or are you stating your opinion as fact?

As a former fraud manager I can assure you this is fraud. It’s also seriously negligent and stupid.

 

[unforgiven]

And yet, clubs do similar shite every year - peptides, minutes of discussion about cap rorting, self-reporting breach that reveals suspended coach and club discussing recruitment etc.

If a club is under reporting crowds to save money on police and security and a major incident occurs at the venue, people will end up in jail. They will be held responsible for any deaths or injuries that occur.

 

[Shark62]

It is fraud, if you are claiming lower numbers to reduce policing and security requirements then that very much is fraudulent isnt it? If you have such experience how many less police officers do you need for a crowd of 13.5k over one of 15k?

Until its proven I will continue to have my doubts when people claim bigger or lower crowds than announced (not that I think its impossible, I know first hand that back i the day in England it wasnt unheard of for there to be cash only gates at challenge cup games to avoid paying income tax on some revenue!)

It is very different. Particularly when you are talking a small ground like Kogarah which has a direct line to the LAC. And it is hardly fraud.

Red, you are getting direct info here from someone with experience in game day management, I know you like to run on speculation- but just cop the tip and move on.

Here is a tip. If you deliberately underestimate crowd numbers to reduce security and police and a serious accident occurs at the ground then that’s the end of your club and your management can wave goodbye to their houses. It’s the same as playing unregistered players. It’s really dumb.

 

[Shark62]

If a club is under reporting crowds to save money on police and security and a major incident occurs at the venue, people will end up in jail. They will be held responsible for any deaths or injuries that occur.

You beat me there!

 

[Valheru]

It is very different. Particularly when you are talking a small ground like Kogarah which has a direct line to the LAC. And it is hardly fraud.

Red, you are getting direct info here from someone with experience in game day management, I know you like to run on speculation- but just cop the tip and move on.

Not that I doubt you but who engages police and/or security? I would think it would be the stadium rather than the tenant and the stadium would know any real numbers.

On a side note I really don't get these claims of over or under reporting NRL crowd figures. I know it is a different industry and country but pro wrestling is notorious for inflating crowd numbers in the states but true figures are readily available to and freely reported by 3rd party newsletter editors who simply ring the venue and ask what the crowd and gate was. Can that not happen here?

 

[Perth Red]

Not that I doubt you but who engages police and/or security? I would think it would be the stadium rather than the tenant and the stadium would know any real numbers.

On a side note I really don't get these claims of over or under reporting NRL crowd figures. I know it is a different industry and country but pro wrestling is notorious for inflating crowd numbers in the states but true figures are readily available to and freely reported by 3rd party newsletter editors who simply ring the venue and ask what the crowd and gate was. Can that not happen here?

Well the NRL reports them so I would think they would be expecting some level of truthfulness to the stats they are being given?

 

[Frank Discussion]

Not that I doubt you but who engages police and/or security? I would think it would be the stadium rather than the tenant and the stadium would know any real numbers.

On a side note I really don't get these claims of over or under reporting NRL crowd figures. I know it is a different industry and country but pro wrestling is notorious for inflating crowd numbers in the states but true figures are readily available to and freely reported by 3rd party newsletter editors who simply ring the venue and ask what the crowd and gate was. Can that not happen here?

Not all clubs rent their stadium.

 

[Shark62]

Not all clubs rent their stadium.

Sadly that’s what I gathered you were alluding to.

 

[adamkungl]

As a former fraud manager I can assure you this is fraud. It’s also seriously negligent and stupid.

If a club is under reporting crowds to save money on police and security and a major incident occurs at the venue, people will end up in jail. They will be held responsible for any deaths or injuries that occur.

Here is a tip. If you deliberately underestimate crowd numbers to reduce security and police and a serious accident occurs at the ground then that’s the end of your club and your management can wave goodbye to their houses. It’s the same as playing unregistered players. It’s really dumb.

In theory, and legally, you're probably right, as ultimate the weight of the government and nsw police will crush them.

But really? Let's look at how this actually works

NSW Police can decide any number is "necessary" and the event operator is forced to pay their costs or be shut down. Obviously silly example (for now), but it's equivalent of the police rocking up to your 50th birthday party in your backyard, saying you need 4 police for the evening, and you have to pay $20,000 for their time or you'll be shut down.
In recent times, NSWPol have been massively increasing the required security and costs for events, well above and beyond what our neighbouring states are doing, despite crime trending downards and alcohol being so obscenely overpriced at most events that you couldn't get properly pissed if you were on a mission.

Is it suddenly less safe to go to a sporting event or concert than it was 5 years ago? Why does a football game in NSW require multiple times more security than one in QLD? Look up the recent article on Bluesfest threatening to jump states because the NSW Government and Police slogged them with an unprecedented enormous bill for police security despite no history of problems.

NSW Police are running a protection racket and I don't blame anyone who tries to undercut them.

 

[unforgiven]

Not all clubs rent their stadium.

If what you are alluding to is true, then the Sharks just never learn. What you are saying could potentially lead to criminal charges being laid against those responsible.

 

[Stallion]

You know this to be factual, or are you stating your opinion as fact?

Not stating my opinion as fact . It's a common held opinion within this website that other codes( notably union:Waratahs & AFL :Western Sydney) have questionable crowd attendance figures. Both codes are trying to gain greater popularity and relevance in Sydney. Think the "eyes" have it so to speak. You will note these comments throughout this thread if you look. So it's definitely not just my opinion. It's the observations of plenty of other contributors. Sometimes seeing is believing.