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2019 Federal Election

Bandwagon

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
45,580
I understand they are just words, i am not that stupid however where the libs are trying not to put all the tax burden on an income group, Labor certainly are and that is my actual point.

Like i said though, none of the merkins will get my vote, but for me there are worse alternatives than the incumbents!

I guess it depends upon whether or not you believe that a progressive tax system is the way to go

The governments mooted changes all work towards a flatter tax system, whereas Labor's are making it more progressive.

I'm more in favour of the idea that those who have more, pay proportionally more, I think it creates a better society for all.
 

Kornstar

Coach
Messages
15,578
I guess it depends upon whether or not you believe that a progressive tax system is the way to go

The governments mooted changes all work towards a flatter tax system, whereas Labor's are making it more progressive.

I'm more in favour of the idea that those who have more, pay proportionally more, I think it creates a better society for all.

Really? I call it punishment but hey i grew up with less than nothing so to work my f**king ass off for 22 years (been working full time from the day i finished my last HSC exam) and put in 3 times as many hours as anyone i know only to lose a f**k load in tax to support too many people i know to count to have 3+ kids and end up not paying a cent in tax........

Yeah it is pretty fair i guess........out of curiosity what is the actual reason you think it is fair? Most people who earn the type of money you want taxed proportionally higher work hours that normal people will never want and have responsibilities that the average (or most people in fact) person is not even remotely interested in. They will miss significant time with their family and friends........what do you think then makes it fine to then take almost half of their pay?

I am happy to get taxed, more than most even but the amount i get taxed is ludicrous to someone who grew up with so little! Especially when i am forced to have something like private health insurance or i am penalised, and penalised even more when you earn over a certain amount (it compounds) ONTOP OF the medicare levy i already pay.

There's nothing quite like punishing people who earn good money is there?

I am in payroll (the IT side now though) so when i first started i would have to pay directors and CEO's and even back then i questioned why these poor f**kers were taxed so high and then i would see them get a bonus and lose a fair chunk in tax as well........it just never made sense to me, and i was earning $24,500 at the time........

I probably have more of an issue with the attitude of it i guess. Too many people i know love to tell me that i should be taxed more so they can pay less (whether actual tax or all the rebates they get which effectively means they pay no tax) and how unfair it is that i earn so much more than them.........meanwhile they usually exhaust their sick leave in the first 3 months of getting it and continue to take it unpaid, change jobs as often as possible, bitch about their employer on social media and talk about how shit their boss is. Just generally no commitment.

I work minimum 12 hours a day and i work Saturday and Sunday and i even work when i go overseas on holidays.

"Get me a job with you" is something i have heard more times than i can count........i grew up in the west and that is symptomatic of lower socio economic areas and so many really do fit the stereotype, whether softies like to admit it or not.

The world is a funny place and we all have different opinions, the only thing i know? Is that mine is always wrong.
 

crocodile

Bench
Messages
3,551
I guess it depends upon whether or not you believe that a progressive tax system is the way to go

The governments mooted changes all work towards a flatter tax system, whereas Labor's are making it more progressive.

I'm more in favour of the idea that those who have more, pay proportionally more, I think it creates a better society for all.

It's already highly progressive. The top 10% of income earners pay half the income tax. Do you want it more progressive again.
 

Gary Gutful

Post Whore
Messages
53,162
Really? I call it punishment but hey i grew up with less than nothing so to work my f**king ass off for 22 years (been working full time from the day i finished my last HSC exam) and put in 3 times as many hours as anyone i know only to lose a f**k load in tax to support too many people i know to count to have 3+ kids and end up not paying a cent in tax........

Yeah it is pretty fair i guess........out of curiosity what is the actual reason you think it is fair? Most people who earn the type of money you want taxed proportionally higher work hours that normal people will never want and have responsibilities that the average (or most people in fact) person is not even remotely interested in. They will miss significant time with their family and friends........what do you think then makes it fine to then take almost half of their pay?

I am happy to get taxed, more than most even but the amount i get taxed is ludicrous to someone who grew up with so little! Especially when i am forced to have something like private health insurance or i am penalised, and penalised even more when you earn over a certain amount (it compounds) ONTOP OF the medicare levy i already pay.

There's nothing quite like punishing people who earn good money is there?

I am in payroll (the IT side now though) so when i first started i would have to pay directors and CEO's and even back then i questioned why these poor f**kers were taxed so high and then i would see them get a bonus and lose a fair chunk in tax as well........it just never made sense to me, and i was earning $24,500 at the time........

I probably have more of an issue with the attitude of it i guess. Too many people i know love to tell me that i should be taxed more so they can pay less (whether actual tax or all the rebates they get which effectively means they pay no tax) and how unfair it is that i earn so much more than them.........meanwhile they usually exhaust their sick leave in the first 3 months of getting it and continue to take it unpaid, change jobs as often as possible, bitch about their employer on social media and talk about how shit their boss is. Just generally no commitment.

I work minimum 12 hours a day and i work Saturday and Sunday and i even work when i go overseas on holidays.

"Get me a job with you" is something i have heard more times than i can count........i grew up in the west and that is symptomatic of lower socio economic areas and so many really do fit the stereotype, whether softies like to admit it or not.

The world is a funny place and we all have different opinions, the only thing i know? Is that mine is always wrong.
It’s called a Korn tax and personally I think it’s fair.
 

Bandwagon

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
45,580
It's already highly progressive. The top 10% of income earners pay half the income tax. Do you want it more progressive again.

Yes I think there are areas that could be improved, particularly in the middle to high end of earners, more brackets, and progressively higher rates at higher incomes, I certainly do not wish to see it become less progressive.

Let's take for example the governments position on removing tax brackets, selling it as addressing bracket creep, I'd argue it's simply an attack on the progressive nature of the tax system, and that if there was a genuine desire to address bracket creep, one would index the tax brackets, not remove them.

As for that oft marched out stat, how does that relate to wealth? What percentage of wealth do those top ten percent of income earners hold? I'd hazard a guess it'd be damn close to half.
 

Obscene Assassin

First Grade
Messages
6,423
How would Kevin 07 have managed the GFC without the surplus Costello created?.

Two words. Ken Henry. He was the person who thought of the stimulus package which was described by nobel prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz as "one of the most impressive economic policies I've seen, ever".
 

Kornstar

Coach
Messages
15,578
It's the FYTKR tax ( f**k your three kid rant tax )

No, i know people with 3 kids who contribute plenty to society, if you are going to throw shade, get it right. The 3 kid and can't afford it rant. Constantly borrowing money from family and friends means you can't afford it......i've been that friend on more than 1 occasion and more than one couple......i've even had the "why should we pay him back when he can afford it" comments from friends (yes, plural) wives.......
 

Bandwagon

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
45,580
No, i know people with 3 kids who contribute plenty to society, if you are going to throw shade, get it right. The 3 kid and can't afford it rant. Constantly borrowing money from family and friends means you can't afford it......i've been that friend on more than 1 occasion and more than one couple......i've even had the "why should we pay him back when he can afford it" comments from friends (yes, plural) wives.......

Just sounds like you need to choose better friends.mate.
 

Chipmunk

Coach
Messages
17,415
It's a valid argument used by merkins who give no f**ks.

Climate change deniers are all about delay and distraction. Even if it is real, they just don't want to pay for it.

John Alexander is the latest with sage advice for our friends in Fiji.


This guy takes the view that you don't have to lower emissions to combat rising C02 levels. The most cost effective way to deal with climate change is to build a wall around New York. So the pragmatic approach to climate change is work it out when it happens. Move to higher ground or just build a wall. Everyone for themselves !


It still doesn't get away from the fact that if Australia went to 100% renewable energy tomorrow and ceased mining and selling coal to the rest of the world immediately, that the actual impacts on overall global warming would be virtually zero.

Australia has 16 coal power stations currently, with plans to build no more.

However, in the rest of the real world, there are currently plans to build a further 1600 coal power plants. Yes...that's 1600...100 times more new coal power plants than Australia has in it the entire country.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/climate/china-energy-companies-coal-plants-climate-change.html

We might think we're important, but in the grand scheme of things we have f**k all influence and if we choose not to allow the mining and selling of coal for these 1600 new power plants, well they will just mine and buy it in another country. It's a global market and if someone goes out business, they just find it from someone else.

Whilst people continue to make money out of coal fired power, then people will continue to mine and sell coal.

Climate Change policy has got to be a global one-in-all-in concept, or we're really just taking the piss.
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
78,008
It still doesn't get away from the fact that if Australia went to 100% renewable energy tomorrow and ceased mining and selling coal to the rest of the world immediately, that the actual impacts on overall global warming would be virtually zero.

Australia has 16 coal power stations currently, with plans to build no more.

However, in the rest of the real world, there are currently plans to build a further 1600 coal power plants. Yes...that's 1600...100 times more new coal power plants than Australia has in it the entire country.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/climate/china-energy-companies-coal-plants-climate-change.html

We might think we're important, but in the grand scheme of things we have f**k all influence and if we choose not to allow the mining and selling of coal for these 1600 new power plants, well they will just mine and buy it in another country. It's a global market and if someone goes out business, they just find it from someone else.

Whilst people continue to make money out of coal fired power, then people will continue to mine and sell coal.

Climate Change policy has got to be a global one-in-all-in concept, or we're really just taking the piss.
Yes but Australia are not planning to shut down all coal powered generators tomorrow nor are they planning on quitting exporting of coal. They are (hopefully) moving towards meaningful targets to transition to a larger mix of non-coal power generation. It is possible refer UK. They started their coal powered scale down over a decade ago.


If Australia waits for an all in approach, it will never happen. We and other climate responsible countries need to take the lead and force non-compliant countries into also making the change. The EU are moving forward as are the UK, New Zealand and Canada. Even our small pacific neighbours are transitioning to renewables.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/10-pacific-island-nations-rets-much-ambitious-australia-45562/

Here is an international reflection on our transition to renewables.

The inevitable decline of Australia’s coal generation
By Leonard Quong at

Coal generation has long been the bedrock of Australia’s electricity supply, providing abundant, cheap baseload power to consumers. But the fleet is ageing and is faced with a series of economic battles for its long-term survival – battles the coal plants are unlikely to win.

Introduction
Age, and the effects of it, are at the heart of the problems facing Australian coal-fired generators. With an average age of 29 years, compared to a design life of between 40 and 50 years, Australia’s coal fleet is ageing. By 2050, nearly all of the country’s 25GW of coal capacity operating today will reach the end of their technical life, with almost 50% reaching this point between 2030 and 2040. Since 2016, already 2.8GW of coal capacity has retired due to old age or after encountering market conditions they were not designed to operate in.

Figure 1. Australian coal capacity with closure at end of technical life (Source: BloombergNEF)

Picture14.1.png


With demand for electricity expected to continue growing, any gap in electricity supply left by retiring coal projects has to be filled. The rapidly changing economics of generation, and needs within the system, will determine Australia’s future generation mix.

Coal unlikely to fill supply gap
There are three main ways to fill the inevitable gap in supply left by retiring coal: i) build new coal plants, ii) life-extend the existing plants as they age, or iii) build something else.

Building new coal
Despite an abundance of coal reserves in Australia, building a new coal-fired power station is one of the most expensive forms of electricity generation. The market views building new coal as an extremely risky prospect. As a result, investors and debt providers demand a significantly higher rate of return for investments in coal projects. The three main risks are:

  • Carbon risk: Since the repeal of the Carbon Tax in 2014, Australia has lacked any long-term, robust, national decarbonization policy. Investors worry that any future policy or decarbonization mechanism will strand investments in new coal.
  • Market risk: The volatile nature of Australia’s electricity markets leaves coal generators particularly exposed to rapidly fluctuating electricity prices, changes in demand dynamics, and fuel prices increasingly linked with international commodity markets.
  • Risk to reputation: Many Australia-based companies are reluctant to support any green-field coal plants due to increasing environmental, social and governance exemplarity expectations (and at times demands) from consumers, investors and shareholders. Already, most large domestic banks have ruled out financing any new coal projects in the country.
Due to these factors, there is very little appetite for any new coal generation projects within Australia’s investment community. Prospective developers struggle to de-risk projects and maintain a viable business model over the life of the project without relying on generous government support schemes (where none yet exist).

Life-extending coal
Extending the lifespan of a coal plant refers to investing new capital into an existing project to keep it operating beyond its initial end-of-life. Each plant will require different investments to continue operating, but even so the ability to life-extend Australia’s coal fleet is limited. Two asset owners, AGL Energy and Origin Energy, have already committed to closing down the coal plants they own at the end of their life – ruling out extending any of these projects. While this might not sound too significant, between the two them, these companies own 39% (10GW) of Australia’s existing coal capacity.

About 8GW of the existing fleet would face severe economic barriers to having their operation extended, according to our analysis. These barriers include poor plant conditions, limited access to fuel supply, limited waste disposal options, or simply an inability to extend environmental permits. The poor condition of the coal fleet is also causing plants to trip, a technical failure that is more likely to happen during episodes of extreme heat that are increasingly frequent. For example, on January 18, 2018, the 500MW Loy Yang B plant, Australia’s youngest lignite power station, tripped whilst supplying around 6% of the state of Victoria’s power demand. The gap in supply was successfully compensated for by the system but these episodes are challenging the portrayal of coal plants as the most, or even only, reliable source of electricity by supporters of the sector in Australian politics.

Taking into account company commitments and poor life-extension economics, only 7GW of coal projects operating today stand to be life-extended. Even if each of the projects that have any reasonable potential for a 15-year extension got one, there would still be a significant gap in supply left by retiring coal (Figure 2).

Figure 2. Australian coal capacity with closure at end of technical life with possible life extensions (Source: BloombergNEF)

Picture14.2.png


Build something else
A mix of renewables, along with other flexible technologies, will be the most likely source of new generation in the market as coal projects retire. For years now, building new renewable generation has been the cheapest source of new electricity supply in Australia. Currently new large-scale wind or solar generation costs around A$55-90/WMh to build in Australia, with future costs expected to continue to decline.

Figure 3. Levelized cost of generation (Source: BloombergNEF)

Picture14.3.png


Operating coal is cheap, but building new coal is one of the most expensive sources of new generation, at around A$190/MWh, taking into the cost of capital expected by investors. The cost of life-extending coal projects is more uncertain, with each project requiring a different amount of re-investment to continue operating. Our analysis suggests that projects reasonably placed to life-extend could do so for around A$81/MWh.

When coal plants retire, there will be no perfect solution to plug any gaps in supply. The market will have to rely on price signals and perceived risks to determine the optimum mix of higher usage of existing assets, building new low cost generation, and flexible capacity.
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
78,008
-/2

More renewables require more flexibility
Most of the thermal plants operating today were built at a time, and with a budget, that did not value flexibility in coal generation. As these coal plants approach the end of their technical lives, what flexibility they had often decreases. Newer coal generation technologies have improved flexibility to some extent, but the rapid influx of renewables is challenging coal generation on two new fronts:

  • Demand following: Physically and thermally, large coal generators struggle to ramp their electricity output quickly. Historically, more expensive gas or liquid fueled ‘peaker’ plants were used to balance fast changes in electricity demand. However, as more variable renewable energy generators enter the market, the complexity of this challenge grows. Coal’s inability to ramp quickly means it is unlikely to be rewarded for the much more difficult task of balancing variable demand against increasing amounts of variable supply.
  • Price following: At high levels of penetration, renewable energy generators suppress wholesale prices when they are operating, particularly in the middle of the day when small- and large-scale solar capacity is at full production. Older, inflexible coal power plants are unable to turn off during these periods, without remaining off during higher morning or evening price events, meaning that coal plants could be frequently exposed to very low or even negative prices.
In the nearly 10 years since the last new coal plant was commissioned in Australia, the country has installed around 6.3GW of solar on its rooftops and what will soon to be 11GW of large-scale renewable projects on the grid. With the amount of variable renewable generation in the energy mix expected to grow, it’s likely many coal plant owners will find themselves faced with a challenging economic situation before their technical end of life.

https://poweringpastcoal.org/insigh...vitable-decline-of-australias-coal-generation
 

SDM

First Grade
Messages
7,600
Really? I call it punishment but hey i grew up with less than nothing so to work my f**king ass off for 22 years (been working full time from the day i finished my last HSC exam) and put in 3 times as many hours as anyone i know only to lose a f**k load in tax to support too many people i know to count to have 3+ kids and end up not paying a cent in tax........

Yeah it is pretty fair i guess........out of curiosity what is the actual reason you think it is fair? Most people who earn the type of money you want taxed proportionally higher work hours that normal people will never want and have responsibilities that the average (or most people in fact) person is not even remotely interested in. They will miss significant time with their family and friends........what do you think then makes it fine to then take almost half of their pay?

I am happy to get taxed, more than most even but the amount i get taxed is ludicrous to someone who grew up with so little! Especially when i am forced to have something like private health insurance or i am penalised, and penalised even more when you earn over a certain amount (it compounds) ONTOP OF the medicare levy i already pay.

There's nothing quite like punishing people who earn good money is there?

I am in payroll (the IT side now though) so when i first started i would have to pay directors and CEO's and even back then i questioned why these poor f**kers were taxed so high and then i would see them get a bonus and lose a fair chunk in tax as well........it just never made sense to me, and i was earning $24,500 at the time........

I probably have more of an issue with the attitude of it i guess. Too many people i know love to tell me that i should be taxed more so they can pay less (whether actual tax or all the rebates they get which effectively means they pay no tax) and how unfair it is that i earn so much more than them.........meanwhile they usually exhaust their sick leave in the first 3 months of getting it and continue to take it unpaid, change jobs as often as possible, bitch about their employer on social media and talk about how shit their boss is. Just generally no commitment.

I work minimum 12 hours a day and i work Saturday and Sunday and i even work when i go overseas on holidays.

"Get me a job with you" is something i have heard more times than i can count........i grew up in the west and that is symptomatic of lower socio economic areas and so many really do fit the stereotype, whether softies like to admit it or not.

The world is a funny place and we all have different opinions, the only thing i know? Is that mine is always wrong.


I understand where you are coming from, you earn enough to cop a fair whack from the top tax rate, but not enough to pay an accountant to dodge your tax bill.
They need to figure out ways to make sure the people earning seven figures a year pay their share without at the same time hammering families living on a single income between 150 & 250.
I just don’t think making the poor even poorer is the way to do it.
 

Bandwagon

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
45,580
I understand where you are coming from, you earn enough to cop a fair whack from the top tax rate, but not enough to pay an accountant to dodge your tax bill.
They need to figure out ways to make sure the people earning seven figures a year pay their share without at the same time hammering families living on a single income between 150 & 250.
I just don’t think making the poor even poorer is the way to do it.

Goes to what I was saying in response to crocodile above, our system could be more progressive particularly when looking at the top two brackets, the split is 90k - 180k, then 180k plus.

There's not doubt that someone earning cicra 100k has less capacity to pay a higher tax rate as say some one earning 150k, then to compound that to treat someone earning 200k the same as some one earning say 10 million is patently ridiculous ( if you see value in a progressive tax system ) For mine the solution lies in more tax brackets, nor less.

I too get where @Kornstar is coming from, as going off what he has posted, I probably pay very similar amounts in tax, I just don't see that the problem or the solution lies with those that earn less than I do.
 

hindy111

Post Whore
Messages
63,425
-/2

More renewables require more flexibility
Most of the thermal plants operating today were built at a time, and with a budget, that did not value flexibility in coal generation. As these coal plants approach the end of their technical lives, what flexibility they had often decreases. Newer coal generation technologies have improved flexibility to some extent, but the rapid influx of renewables is challenging coal generation on two new fronts:

  • Demand following: Physically and thermally, large coal generators struggle to ramp their electricity output quickly. Historically, more expensive gas or liquid fueled ‘peaker’ plants were used to balance fast changes in electricity demand. However, as more variable renewable energy generators enter the market, the complexity of this challenge grows. Coal’s inability to ramp quickly means it is unlikely to be rewarded for the much more difficult task of balancing variable demand against increasing amounts of variable supply.
  • Price following: At high levels of penetration, renewable energy generators suppress wholesale prices when they are operating, particularly in the middle of the day when small- and large-scale solar capacity is at full production. Older, inflexible coal power plants are unable to turn off during these periods, without remaining off during higher morning or evening price events, meaning that coal plants could be frequently exposed to very low or even negative prices.
In the nearly 10 years since the last new coal plant was commissioned in Australia, the country has installed around 6.3GW of solar on its rooftops and what will soon to be 11GW of large-scale renewable projects on the grid. With the amount of variable renewable generation in the energy mix expected to grow, it’s likely many coal plant owners will find themselves faced with a challenging economic situation before their technical end of life.

https://poweringpastcoal.org/insigh...vitable-decline-of-australias-coal-generation

Allan said this was all a hoax
 

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