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2nd Test: South Africa v Australia at Johannesburg Nov 17-21, 2011

Twizzle

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
153,355
Questions, comments, criticisms?

1. Hughes
2. Warner
3. Marsh (assuming he is fit)
4. Watson
5. Clarke (c)
6. M.Hussey
7. M.Wade
8. S.O'Keefe
9. B.Cutting
10. P.Cummins
11. T.Copeland

Oozi in for Hussy

Harris in for Copeland and I'd have Pattinson in the 12 and rotate him with Cummins as they are both young and need to be managed properly.

This team is probably about 12 months away imo although SOK seems to have had his card stamped never to play for Australia
 
Last edited:

yappy

Bench
Messages
4,161
Questions, comments, criticisms?

1. Hughes
2. Warner
3. Marsh (assuming he is fit)
4. Watson
5. Clarke (c)
6. M.Hussey
7. M.Wade
8. S.O'Keefe
9. B.Cutting
10. P.Cummins
11. T.Copeland

That's pretty close to my thinking. The pace bowling has plenty of options. Cutting, Copes and Cummins could be real nice, but Harris, Dougeh, and maybe even Sidds (maybe) should still be in the mix, and Pattinson, Hazelwood, Marsh, Butterworth and others could all do a job.

Wade is the obvious replacement for Haddin for NZ, but Paine and Nevill at least offer good options too.

It's only really the batting that we don't have too many options. Those you've selected plus Khawaja are about it for bats. I have doubts that Marsh, like Harris can play many tests in a row so Uzi is probably the guy we need to groom for 3. Smith and Maxwell are the two I think should be looking to take Hussey's place eventually. Hopefully someone like Lynn can step up and challenge too, but I actually reckon if that side is given 18 months they'll be pretty tough to beat.
 

TheParraboy

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
68,422
The upcoming kiwi 2 test series is the time to groom new players and settle into a side for the next 12-18 months, not keep the likes of Ponting, Haddin and Johnson around, that doesnt serve any purpose at all, wether short or long term.

I think with our pace bowling we have a lot of raw options (cummins, copeland, george, pattinson, and a fully fit dougy), but we keep sticking to Johnson and Siddle (Siddle, with respect at times does ok)
 

caylo

Bench
Messages
4,870
The upcoming kiwi 2 test series is the time to groom new players and settle into a side for the next 12-18 months, not keep the likes of Ponting, Haddin and Johnson around, that doesnt serve any purpose at all, wether short or long term.

I think with our pace bowling we have a lot of raw options (cummins, copeland, george, pattinson, and a fully fit dougy), but we keep sticking to Johnson and Siddle (Siddle, with respect at times does ok)

I agree but I would also put Hussey in that category as well, while he had a good ashes I think the likes of Ponting, Haddin, Hussey and Johnson (as well as Hilf) are stagnating australian cricket.

Now I'm not for wholesale changes but I think it is time and Australia needs a new identity to be able to move forward.

Honestly I would look at giving guys like Cummins and Copeland, Bollinger extended runs. I like Cuttings and Hazlewood as well but I think both need to prove it over more then one season before given any game time (i would have preferred the same with Cummins but he has done well so far IMO). Guys like Warner, Lynn, Cooper, Wade and Neville need to be looked at but both Khawaja and Hughes dominated Shield cricket for a while now and neither has settled into test cricket so we must be patient and give any new guys an extended run IMO.
 

caylo

Bench
Messages
4,870
My test XI for NZ would be: Marsh, Hughes, Khawaja, Watson, Clarke, Warner, Wade, Harris, Cummins, Lyon, Bollinger.

If: Watson injured --> Henriques at 6 and Warner opens with Marsh to 3 and Khawaja to 4
Harris and/or Bollinger injured --> Copeland and Cutting to replace them.

Inexperienced side but it is time IMO. I know most people will laugh at the Henriques selection but that is because he is probably the best batting alrounder we have the the country atm, performed well this year and is a wicket taker (more a selection of horses for courses).
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,713
Hughes
Khawaja
Marsh
Watson
Clarke
Hussey
Wade
Lyon
Siddle
Cummins
Copeland

Firstly, those wanting Hussey dropped are being harsh I reckon. Four 100s and five 50s (including three 90s) in his last 10 tests. We don't have the luxury to drop someone like that.

Also I want Khawaja given an extended run before we throw Warner in. He looks the goods and deserves the same oppurtunity Hughes got.

And with our bowlers. I think we need to keep Siddle. He's been solid enough. Him along with Cummins and Copeland looks like a pretty decent pace attack.
 

aqua_duck

Coach
Messages
18,636
Warner? Really? Although I do see he actually is now playing FC cricket and is going well.

10 years ago he would've been about 10th in line but at present he's probably a better option than half our current batsman. When he fires he's the type who can take the game away from the opposition in a single session.
 

caylo

Bench
Messages
4,870
Firstly, those wanting Hussey dropped are being harsh I reckon. Four 100s and five 50s (including three 90s) in his last 10 tests. We don't have the luxury to drop someone like that.

You make a very good point but outside of Australia his record is very poor recently. He is defiantly the only older player I would keep in the side but I was thinking more with Warners good form, if you batted at 6 it would bring him into test cricket slower and also allowing Khawaja more time at the top of the order.

Like I said I'm not usually the type of person to call for wholesale changes I just think there has to be a changing of guard and Clarke needs to build the team around youngsters that have proven themselves in first class cricket.
 

yappy

Bench
Messages
4,161
Warner could seriously be the best bat in the world for the next decade. People keep pigeon holing him as a 20-20 specialist, but he's much much more than that. He has the technique to make runs when things are tough, but once he's on top he can destroy even good attacks. No better time than a test against NZ to get him in. What he could do to them and India (especially if Zaheer isn't fit) is frightening. Then he has the tour to WI in April. Those nine tests are an excellent opportunity to blood and groom a new top order. As for talk about playing him at 6 - it's crazy talk. He's an opener, always has been an opener. They're a different breed. NSW tried to play him at 6 and he was shit. As soon as he started opening the runs flowed. Let's stop trying to manufacture openers and just let the best ones we have play in the spot they prefer.

Hughes will also be great. Some of those shots he played in that 88 were pure class. Again it was that shortish ball close to his body angling across that did him. It's the one part of his game he really has to fix, but fix it he will. The stuff into his body doesn't really trouble him, and he's getting shots away to leg. Having Amla in at that backward short leg is really wasted. Sure one half chance came, but you saw how far back he had to stand as it was, and still no one is going to catch something off the middle that close. That position is no more useful to Hughes than any other batsman. I expect he'll get at least 1 ton against NZ and at least 1 against India to put his position beyond question. He does have a little of Marcus North's "rocks or diamonds" problem with his 88 being only his 2nd completed innings between 37 and 100 (the other being his 75 on debut) so he needs to get more starts, (which he will), but f**k he goes on once he's in.

Marsh I still see as a prick tease and a fraud. When I point out he averages 38 and there is a good reason for that the cry is 'but look at his last couple of seasons'. So you look at his last couple of seasons and yeah he averages well over 50 (in 3 or the last 4). But look closer. Invariably he starts with a nice early ton, backs it up with a 50 or two before trending down and after very few games breaking down and not playing again that summer. Now look at how he's started his test career...

I'd like it to be otherwise, because he does 'look' like such a good solid bat with a lovely correct technique and solid defence. I just can't think of the point of trying to build a top order around a guy who breaks so often. As a bowler we all know Harris is just a stop gap because of his injuries until one of the young guys steps up. Cummins may have ended his test career (may). Similarly Marsh despite his good start is probably no more than a stop gap or handy guy to have as a reserve to fill in for injuries (until he gets his next one).

Khawaja should be given longer at 3. I do hope he makes a good score in the 2nd dig, but even without it should probably get the NZ tests. I'm convinced he's the long term answer at 3. He's shown the temperament, he just now needs to convert his starts. Too good not to do so soon.

Watson to 4 will still leave him in the top order where his game is probably more suited (he's always looked lost at see low down), but will ease the pressure on him after bowling. If he can average 40 or so here he'll be fantastic for us even if he doesn't convert 50s into tons.

Clarke is 5 - never to be moved. Should end up with Waugh like stats playing in the role best suited to him and his game. Hussey is safe until at least the end of the Windies tour. I reckon either Smith or Maxwell will step up and if he retires or fails next summer might be ready to take his spot and offer a 2nd spin option.

As for bowlers just moving on from Johnson will be reinvigorating. That f**king hack has been a huge part of our problems. We've been punting on long shots rather than backing guys who might not look flash but get the job done more often than not. Siddle is almost in the same boat, but not quite. Siddle's problem isn't so much that his bad is terrible, just innocuous. He can take a bag full, but goes wicketless far too often. I wouldn't so much mind giving him a few more chances, but I do think there are better options as well. Just so long as I never have to endure watching Johnson again. Plenty of good guys who deserve one of the thousands of chances Johnson has had. I've no doubt we can find three or four who will do far more with those chances than that myth ever did.
 

yappy

Bench
Messages
4,161
Like I said I'm not usually the type of person to call for wholesale changes I just think there has to be a changing of guard and Clarke needs to build the team around youngsters that have proven themselves in first class cricket.

Wholesale changes wouldn't have been needed if the numpties who used to pick the side had done their job and cleaned out the dead wood when it was first obvious rather than leaving it to rot. Now wholesale changes are unavoidable unless we want to persist with rubbish.

Ponting, Johnson and Haddin's careers should end in the next 48 hours. If they don't we're kidding ourselves and ensuring we continue to suck for longer than required. Siddle should also be strongly considered for the axe, but might hang on.

Clarke's fate is probably similar to Border's. Never going to be No.1 on his watch, but setting the team up for a long run at the top.
 

Timbo

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
20,281
My team for Brisbane would be:

1-D.Warner
2-U.Khawaja
3-S.Marsh
4-S.Watson
5-M.Clarke*
6-M.Hussey
7-B.Haddin+
8-S.O'Keefe
9-L.Butterworth
10-R.Harris
11-D.Bollinger

12-P.Cummins

Haddin on his last chance. Let's not forget he was one of our few decent players during the Ashes. He's had two rough series but I reckon he's still our best on his day.

My side would also have Katich opening. But that's plainly not going to happen.
 

Hallatia

Referee
Messages
26,433
Apparently there's a big chance Watson could be out for that test. He has said that even if he does manage to play the first test he won't be able to bowl.
 

TheParraboy

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
68,422
Warner could seriously be the best bat in the world for the next decade. People keep pigeon holing him as a 20-20 specialist, but he's much much more than that. He has the technique to make runs when things are tough, but once he's on top he can destroy even good attacks. No better time than a test against NZ to get him in. What he could do to them and India (especially if Zaheer isn't fit) is frightening. Then he has the tour to WI in April. Those nine tests are an excellent opportunity to blood and groom a new top order. As for talk about playing him at 6 - it's crazy talk. He's an opener, always has been an opener. They're a different breed. NSW tried to play him at 6 and he was shit. As soon as he started opening the runs flowed. Let's stop trying to manufacture openers and just let the best ones we have play in the spot they prefer.

Hughes will also be great. Some of those shots he played in that 88 were pure class. Again it was that shortish ball close to his body angling across that did him. It's the one part of his game he really has to fix, but fix it he will. The stuff into his body doesn't really trouble him, and he's getting shots away to leg. Having Amla in at that backward short leg is really wasted. Sure one half chance came, but you saw how far back he had to stand as it was, and still no one is going to catch something off the middle that close. That position is no more useful to Hughes than any other batsman. I expect he'll get at least 1 ton against NZ and at least 1 against India to put his position beyond question. He does have a little of Marcus North's "rocks or diamonds" problem with his 88 being only his 2nd completed innings between 37 and 100 (the other being his 75 on debut) so he needs to get more starts, (which he will), but f**k he goes on once he's in.

Marsh I still see as a prick tease and a fraud. When I point out he averages 38 and there is a good reason for that the cry is 'but look at his last couple of seasons'. So you look at his last couple of seasons and yeah he averages well over 50 (in 3 or the last 4). But look closer. Invariably he starts with a nice early ton, backs it up with a 50 or two before trending down and after very few games breaking down and not playing again that summer. Now look at how he's started his test career...

I'd like it to be otherwise, because he does 'look' like such a good solid bat with a lovely correct technique and solid defence. I just can't think of the point of trying to build a top order around a guy who breaks so often. As a bowler we all know Harris is just a stop gap because of his injuries until one of the young guys steps up. Cummins may have ended his test career (may). Similarly Marsh despite his good start is probably no more than a stop gap or handy guy to have as a reserve to fill in for injuries (until he gets his next one).

Khawaja should be given longer at 3. I do hope he makes a good score in the 2nd dig, but even without it should probably get the NZ tests. I'm convinced he's the long term answer at 3. He's shown the temperament, he just now needs to convert his starts. Too good not to do so soon.

Watson to 4 will still leave him in the top order where his game is probably more suited (he's always looked lost at see low down), but will ease the pressure on him after bowling. If he can average 40 or so here he'll be fantastic for us even if he doesn't convert 50s into tons.

Clarke is 5 - never to be moved. Should end up with Waugh like stats playing in the role best suited to him and his game. Hussey is safe until at least the end of the Windies tour. I reckon either Smith or Maxwell will step up and if he retires or fails next summer might be ready to take his spot and offer a 2nd spin option.

As for bowlers just moving on from Johnson will be reinvigorating. That f**king hack has been a huge part of our problems. We've been punting on long shots rather than backing guys who might not look flash but get the job done more often than not. Siddle is almost in the same boat, but not quite. Siddle's problem isn't so much that his bad is terrible, just innocuous. He can take a bag full, but goes wicketless far too often. I wouldn't so much mind giving him a few more chances, but I do think there are better options as well. Just so long as I never have to endure watching Johnson again. Plenty of good guys who deserve one of the thousands of chances Johnson has had. I've no doubt we can find three or four who will do far more with those chances than that myth ever did.

Great thread


Its all about giving some young blokes a go now, expecially for the kiwi tests.
 

Timbo

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
20,281
Apparently there's a big chance Watson could be out for that test. He has said that even if he does manage to play the first test he won't be able to bowl.

Should be rested for the first test then, not worth risking the injury.

But then the selectors will definitely retain Johnson for his 'all-round' capabilities.

I wouldn't mind seeing someone like James Faulkner get a run if Watson is out. But he and Butterworth are the forgotten duo down there in Tassie, no matter how well they're going.
 

Fast Eddie

First Grade
Messages
8,085
My team for Brisbane would be:

1-D.Warner
2-U.Khawaja
3-S.Marsh
4-S.Watson
5-M.Clarke*
6-M.Hussey
7-B.Haddin+
8-S.O'Keefe
9-L.Butterworth
10-R.Harris
11-D.Bollinger

12-P.Cummins

Haddin on his last chance. Let's not forget he was one of our few decent players during the Ashes. He's had two rough series but I reckon he's still our best on his day.

My side would also have Katich opening. But that's plainly not going to happen.

So Ponting goes (deservedly so) but Haddin stays? Lol. I think your avatar might tell the story behind that one.
 

AlwaysGreen

Post Whore
Messages
50,458
Seriously, we should be able to beat the kiwis even if we have John Howard and Bitch Johnson opening the bowling and Edward Scissorhands as keeper. Which is why I fear that ponting, bitch and Haddin will be retained. They'll fill their boots against NZ and then they'll be in the side until bunniesman loses his cherry.
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,713
Seriously, we should be able to beat the kiwis even if we have John Howard and Bitch Johnson opening the bowling and Edward Scissorhands as keeper. Which is why I fear that ponting, bitch and Haddin will be retained. They'll fill their boots against NZ and then they'll be in the side until bunniesman loses his cherry.
If they were sacked when I lost my cherry they'd have been sacked years ago. Everyone would have been happy then.
 

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