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9 Aussies in NZ Warriors 17

hutch

First Grade
Messages
6,810
is anyone else concerned with this? there is a heap of talent in nz, and a heap more crossing the tasman to play for footy over here. i can accept the occassional aussie heading over the ditch to play, but 9? the upside is that they are all quality players, there are no second rate aussies. downside, less spots for kiwis, less chances for young kiwis to make the step up.
 
Messages
14,139
It's bugged me for some time. Especially when they sign players like Crocket (now gone), Kirk, Kemp, Moon and Lillyman. They don't need those players. The amount of ex Warriors in the SL shows that the club has done a terrible job keeping its players and seems to be happy to ship them off and bring in these Aussies. It's disappointing, especially when developing Kiwis is one of their prime purposes. I always thought the Warriors would look for Kiwi talent in Australia and bring them home but apart from Wiki, eventually, and now Jesse Royal they haven't signed any.
 

roughyedspud

Coach
Messages
12,186
why should the warriors blow huge amounts of wedge developing kids for the kiwis when they can get the likes of penrith & souths to do it for them :lol:
 

deluded pom?

Coach
Messages
10,897
A journalist (Andy Wilson) guesting on the Super League Show in the UK highlighted a similar thing happening at Catalans Dragons. He reckons they (for some strange reason) are allowed nine players not brought through the home nations fedaration as opposed to eight in the UK based teams. They aren't just bringing journeymen Aussies over but SOO players. He reckons they have more Aussies in the squad now then when they first came into the ESL.
 

marv

Juniors
Messages
1,053
A journalist (Andy Wilson) guesting on the Super League Show in the UK highlighted a similar thing happening at Catalans Dragons. He reckons they (for some strange reason) are allowed nine players not brought through the home nations fedaration as opposed to eight in the UK based teams. They aren't just bringing journeymen Aussies over but SOO players. He reckons they have more Aussies in the squad now then when they first came into the ESL.

Not stictly true, they have 9 this year with the signing of Bird and had 9 in 2006 because they signed Mick Dobson mid year. They also used 9 players in 2008 and 10 overseas players in 2007.

The club self-imposed a quota ruling of 8 overseas players, hence the non-appearance of Justin Murphy on more than one occasion over the last few years but I dont know if that was a club decision or a Potter decision.

Much of what Wilson says is valid though IMO, the Dragons, like the Warriors should be a develpment tool for players from France/NZ, not a club with x number of SoO players and a few token frenchmen
 

Noa

First Grade
Messages
9,029
Non issue.

Theyre a bridge till the NYC starts to supply a steady flow of NRL standard players, which is happening now.

5-6 years from now you'll be lucky to get 2 or 3 aussiesi mo.
 
Messages
2,137
yeah Noa`s right, before the Toyota Cup started, there was no quality junior competition in NZ, kids had to go and sign with Aussie clubs.
 

krudmonk

Juniors
Messages
625
Eh, that's an issue for rugby union. The club game is bigger than just breeding players for test matches. Nobody worries about NZ players in Australia, so why the opposite?

I do think they need a second club, though.
 

The Observer

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
1,742
On the surface, it might look like a problem. However, let's keep in mind that some Australian NRL teams in the order of 9 NZRL products in their squads (or systems, if you include Toyota and State Cup teams?) There are well over 100 NZRL products in NRL, Toyota Cup, NSW and QLD Cups.
 

kiwileaguefan

Juniors
Messages
2,426
I always thought the Warriors would look for Kiwi talent in Australia and bring them home but apart from Wiki, eventually, and now Jesse Royal they haven't signed any.

They have also signed Lewis Brown, Stacey Jones and are in the process of sigining Greg Eastwood too. Plus they signed Hermad Retzlaff and Ryan Shortland last year.

The amount of NZ born talent in the U20's in the Warriors U20's is amazing....then you have got all the other Kiwis playing in other U20's teams.
 

Scottey

Juniors
Messages
500
Eh, that's an issue for rugby union. The club game is bigger than just breeding players for test matches. Nobody worries about NZ players in Australia, so why the opposite?

I do think they need a second club, though.

Pretty much spot on. Not sure about the second club... well not yet anyway. I'm not sure Wellington or Christchurch would generate the same sort of support.

I don't see it as a bad thing. Signing Steve Price was the best thing they've ever done. Ivan Cleary is now head coach and looks like he's not doing a too bad job. Honestly as a Warriors fan, I'm not concerned.

Players like Denan Kemp and Joel Moon bring a small amount of NRL experience, composure and come from an environment with a successful culture.

And the young talent is getting a go. Ropati and Vatuvei are home-grown products. Rapira's getting a start, as is Matulino. Mannering's home-grown. And on the bench, Packer and Ah Mau are both getting shots at first grade.
 

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
Non issue. Out of their top 25, the following players have either played for New Zealand or are eligible to;

Leeson Ah Mau
Patrick Ah Van
Lewis Brown
Nathan Fien (I know, I know, but hey... Kermy Hunt is Aussie right?)
Liam Foran
Lance Hohaia
Stacey Jones
Epalahame Lauaki
Simon Mannering
Ben Matulino
Daniel O'Regan
Russell Packer
Sam Rapira
Herman Retzlaff
Jerome Ropati
Evarn Tuimavave
Manu Vatuvei

I haven't included Malo Solomona who has been a part of the Samoan squad. Included Lauaki as he did play for the Kiwis.

It'd be interesting to see other club's make up of local versus non local products. Aside from Brisbane, I dare say the Warriors look rather good in that aspect. I dare say the Warriors like most clubs have a strategy based around winning the premiership first and foremost, that seems to be a good strategy to adopt to attract sponsors and keep gates high and ultimately sustainability in a volotile economy.

As eluded to before, the club operated for many years without a NSW Premier League squad, and of course without any junior representation. Those things help balance things out in the long run.
 

marv

Juniors
Messages
1,053
The amount of NZ born talent in the U20's in the Warriors U20's is amazing....then you have got all the other Kiwis playing in other U20's teams.

yeah, thats all great for NZ as a whole, but the Warriors still have an Aussie heavy starting line up, maybe in the years to come this will change.
 

marv

Juniors
Messages
1,053
On the surface, it might look like a problem. However, let's keep in mind that some Australian NRL teams in the order of 9 NZRL products in their squads (or systems, if you include Toyota and State Cup teams?) There are well over 100 NZRL products in NRL, Toyota Cup, NSW and QLD Cups.

But this isnt about NZ test side, its about the Warriors, theres no mandate saying the warriors have to have x number of NZ players, but I dont think it reflects well on them having so many overseas players in the starting 17 when NZ are world champs.

If there are over 100 NZ products in the Aussie system, then why are they slipping through the warriors net? Will those things change as the reserve grade side plays in the Aus comp now?

Im not tryng being antagonistic, Im genuinley asking questions
 

marv

Juniors
Messages
1,053
It'd be interesting to see other club's make up of local versus non local products. Aside from Brisbane, I dare say the Warriors look rather good in that aspect.

I dare say the Warriors like most clubs have a strategy based around winning the premiership first and foremost, that seems to be a good strategy to adopt to attract sponsors and keep gates high and ultimately sustainability in a volotile economy.

As eluded to before, the club operated for many years without a NSW Premier League squad, and of course without any junior representation. Those things help balance things out in the long run.


All good points Iafeta
 

bazza

Immortal
Messages
33,268
On the surface, it might look like a problem. However, let's keep in mind that some Australian NRL teams in the order of 9 NZRL products in their squads (or systems, if you include Toyota and State Cup teams?) There are well over 100 NZRL products in NRL, Toyota Cup, NSW and QLD Cups.

I agree - it doesn't worry me at all. A mix of players from different backgrounds and experience levels helps make a club more successful

There are plenty of NZ players in the other 15 Australian NRL teams and it is pretty easy for NZ players to get a start there
 

Talanexor

Juniors
Messages
1,798
Put the shoe on the other foot. How many kiwis are playing in the top grade for Souths, Penrith, Bulldogs etc?

Hell a couple of years ago the Bulldogs squad consisted of El Masri, Andrew Ryan and 15 New Zealanders.

I wouldn't be too concerned. As long as the Warriors continue to develop local talent into world-class players, it can only be good for rugby league in general and NZRL in particular.
 

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
They are debuting another New Zealander this week in Leeson Ah Mau who has come through the ranks of firstly the Auckland Lions, then the NYC team.

If you look at the Warriors, since 2000 they've debuted the following players who have since gone on to play for the Kiwis; (haven't included players who started elsewhere and then moved to the Warriors).

Louis Anderson
Vinnie Anderson
Henry Fa'afili
Lance Hohaia
Tevita Latu
Epalahame Lauaki
Thomas Leuluai
Simon Mannering
Iafeta Paleaaesina
Sam Rapira
Jerome Ropati
Motu Tony
Evarn Tuimavave
Manu Vatuvei
Brent Webb *

That's not a bad list. As most have eluded to, Australian club's representation of New Zealand eligible players has expanded enormously. Furthermore, Ivan Cleary and Wayne Scurrah have both boasted about the future of the Warriors being more heavily accentuated to a New Zealand favoured roster.

Out of the guys at the club who are Australian, most seem to have a purpose;

Ian Henderson (OK, he's Scottish, but he's been at electric at hooker)
Denan Kemp (wicked try scoring rate)
Aidan Kirk (wouldn't be on a lot and always does a good job - can play wing, centre or fullback)
Jacob Lillyman (Queensland State of Origin rep)
Micheal Luck (Plays an enormous amount of games consecutively, very resilient, and our best defender - most tackles for the 2007 NRL season)
Wade McKinnon (no need to comment, outstanding player)
Joel Moon (bought on promise of Junior Kangaroos excellence at five eighth)
Steve Price ('nuff said)
Brent Tate ('nuff said)
Michael Witt (won't be with the club much longer but was an excellent goal kicker also brought in on promise at five eighth, an area we haven't excelled at)

Unless I've missed someone, that means that 10 out of the top 25 only are non New Zealand eligible or born players. 2 of those are current Australian representatives, another is a Queensland representative. Another is in the top 2 in terms of defensive tackle counts. And also of course Wade McKinnon and Denan Kemp who are proven attacking threats. Would other clubs not take those players? We've got to be realistic here, the Warriors, like all NRL clubs, are here to win the Premiership. That's their goal. It'd be a niceity to be able to plug the team with Mt Albert or Otahuhu old boys, but if the stands don't get fulled, the sponsors don't come, you might as well kiss goodbye the Warriors and kiss goodbye one of the few cornerstones the NZRL can rely on in a very bleak time. God knows they've stuffed everything else up, for the Warriors to kiss it all goodbye would be an erroneous failure. At least this gives 15 blokes a professional contract (from memory, 32 players are actually on full time contracts which means 22 blokes get professional contracts), you have the NYC churning out players, you have NSW Premier League to develop players further, and you continue to have the game in the eye of young New Zealanders who may choose to take up this product which is a far more eye catching product than rugby union.

The true test is going to be the next 5-10 years. Remember, before 2008 there was no NYC team. Before 2007, for a good 10 or so years there was no premier league. IMO they were massive mistakes, although obviously this was due to cost saving. IMO the cost-benefit-analysis in the long run is so advantageous to the three tiers it's not funny. I believe Mick Watson's management was happy with 2001-2003 and believed they had it right that they could just rely on Bartercard Cup as the fallback to grow players on. But all it did was give a non-professional competition for international scouts to come by and watch and pick up players right from under the Warriors nose. Heck, John Ackland the current Warriors assistant coach picked up Sonny Bill and Roy Asotasi for the Bulldogs. IMO Watson's management lacked serious foresight and a long term vision for growing and developing players, and this is one of the primary reasons why the Warriors were ordinary in 2004 and into 2005.

For long term growth, you require structures. They have that. But for sustainability, they need crowds. To do that, they have to have a modium of success on field. If they don't, you might as destroy their license and give all the momentum gained back to rugby union. To do that, as sad as it may appear, guys like Price, Tate, McKinnon, Lillyman, Moon, Kemp, Luck are required. 10 out of 32 of the professionals are Australian. Again, I ask, bar perhaps Brisbane are there that many clubs in the NRL that have have 22 out of 32 as locally grown products??? The Warriors are following the same goals as all those other teams. Long term, that number will further dissepate, the youngsters will begin filling those spots now that they have opportunities. But it's not going to happen anytime in the near future. It's going to take time, and even then, I still believe there will always be 4-5 Australians at the Warriors.

Which, as we know, is a professional club. Not a national team. After all, they are the Warriors, not the NZ Warriors as erroneously stated.
 
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